Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 9
The nynth article may be deuided into nyne demaundes.
1 And for the neceſſary vſe and execution of the foreſayd offices, they muſt further be aſked, what Sacramentes the Proteſtants miniſtred for the ſpace of a thouſand yeares togither, in which they confeſſe their congregations to hauehave bene neare or elſe wholy hidden.
THey miniſtred thoſe Sacramentes which Chriſt did inſtitute, namely the Sacrament of baptiſme, and the Sacrament of the body and blood of Chriſt, at ſuch times as the cruell tyrannie of you Papiſtes did not hinder them, to come togither for ſuch purpoſes.
2 VVhat correction they kept and diſcipline for offenders.
THey did vſe ſuch diſcipline as was vſed in S. Cyprians time, when perſecution hindered not the free courſe of it. As he doth often complaine in the places aboue rehearſed. They did admoniſh ſecretly, before witneſſes, and when perſecution ſtayed them not, they did alſo excommunicate.
3 To whome they did preach their Fayth.
TO ſuch as woulde geue them hearing, as VVickleue to the Engliſhmen: Iohn Hus to the Bohemians: VValdo to the Frenchmen, and ſo of the reſt.
4 How did they reproue hereſies?
THey reproued hereſies, by the worde of God, and patient ſufferinge of your tyrannie: the one you may reade in their workes, that are yet extant of VVickleue, Bertrame, Hus, &c. The other in hiſtories of your owne writers.
5 VVhere did their principall Paſtors ſit in Iudgement?
I Might aſke you where the Apoſtles did ſit in iudgement and you are neuer able to ſhew me, for I reade as one ſayth: that they ſtoode often to be Iudged, but I neuer reade that they ſat in iudgement vponupon others: And ſo I aunſwere of the principall Paſtors of our Church, eſpecially in time of perſecution.
6 VVhere did they gather as in Councells to try the trueth of doubtfull matters?
AS God gaue them reſpight, from your tyrannie, they had conference one with an other: and as for doubtes, they tried them by the worde of God, and not by number of voyces, as you do in your councells, as for the places where they met, is nothing at all materiall, at Prage, at Lyons, at Merindol, &c.
7 How might Chriſtian men, iuſtly offended with ſome of their brethern, hauehave ſought out your officers or Congregation, to make complainct of him?
YOu are void of all reaſon that in a perſecuted church, will require all thinges to be ſo formall and orderly, as in time of peace and quietnes, I could choke you with putting like caſes of your Church. If a number of Papiſtes be carried priſoners into Barbarie, or Turkey, what Sacraments, what diſcipline, what Iudgement hauehave they among them, if one be offended with his brother how ſhall he come to your officers, or to your Church to complaine. In ſuch caſes where the ordinary authoritie of the Church is hindred by perſecution, or otherwiſe, the rule of S. Paule. 1. Cor. 5. may ſerue and ought to be obſerued: If any that is called a brother be a fornicator, or couetous, or an Idolater, or a rayler, or a drunkard, or an extorcioner with ſuch one eate not. So that if a Chriſtian be iuſtly offended with his brother, he ought to abſteine from his company. And if he may hauehave ordinary authoritie, he may complaine further.
8 Or how if it had liked any man to hauehave ben baptized of them, or to hauehave receiued the communion of them, or to hauehave bene married of them, or to hauehave ioyned them ſelues in Fayth and Religion to them, how might I ſay that ſecret, contemptible, and vnknowne company, be founde in this caſe?
HE muſt hauehave ſought them out as well as he could, & if he had bene perſwaded, that they onelyonly miniſtred the Sacraments, & Eccleſiaſticall rites, ſincerely, according to the word of God, it were no great matter for him to find them, ſeing he knew by whom he was ſo perſwaded, and of them might alſo be informed where he ſhould hauehave them. I maruell you are not aſhamed to demaūd theſe queſtions, as though it were materiall to diſcuſſe, whether of vsus hath the Church, to hauehave the Church ſo manifeſt, that eueryevery man may ſee it. Doe you not remember how many ſchiſmes hauehave bene euen in the popiſh church, more thē twenty, and ſometime two Popes at once, ſometime three, & ſometime fower, which of them ſhould a ſimple Papiſt take for head of the Church, eſpecially in the 22. ſchiſme, which laſted 39. yeares: one Pope ſitting at Rome, an other at Auinion, either hauing his court, either hauing and making Cardinals, either curſing other. Or in the 23. ſchiſme, when the queſtion was of one of the higheſt pointes in all popery, and is not yet throughly decided among them: Whether the Pope be aboue the Councell, or the Councell aboue the Pope. In the time of theſe ſchiſmes how might a man hauehave founde out, which was the true Church, which was Chriſtes vicare in earth, which had the right Sacraments and Sacramentalls, to which Popes court ſhould he appeale, where did the principall Paſtors ſit in iudgement, &c. How ſhould councells be gathered, which Pope ſhoulde confirme their actes, &c, When you are able to aunſwere theſe queſtions, for your owne church, then you may better require them of ours. As for that ſecrete, contemptible, and vnknowne company of our Church, in the ſight of the world, was neuertheleſſe manifeſt, glorious, and knowen to our Sauiour Chriſt, and the liuely members of his body.
9 If therefore you can ſhew me, that any man euer ſought Iuſtice or knowledge of trueth, ſacrament, or faith, or any helpe of Saluation at the Proteſtants ſecret and cloſe congregation, or any other where, but of Gods knowen Catholike Church, I recant.
ALthough it be to litle purpoſe to aunſwere this demande, becauſe it is no reaſon to ſay, theſe thinges hath not bene, becauſe chronicles make no mention of them: yet that all men maye ſee, how farre you ouerſhoot your ſelfe, I wil partely ſatisfie your requeſt. Charles the great ſought knowledge of the trueth of the ſacrament of Bertramus. Iohn, Duke of Lancaſter, and diuers other noble men were inſtructed in our Religion by VVickleue. The land of Bohemia, was conuerted by Iohn Hus, and Hieronym of Prage, and ſought the ſacraments of them. Finally, you alwayes forget the Greeke church, which you do not accompt parte of the Catholike church, and yet you can not deny but men hauehave ſought Iuſtice, ſacramentes, faith, &c. of it. Therefore if a man might truſt you vponupon your worde, you recant.