Answer to the Proud Challenge of a Counterset Catholic, Answer · Answer · Article 8
The 8. article conteyneth 3. demandes.
1 And becauſe Chriſt as S. Paule ſayeth, hath eſtabliſhed in his Church ſome Apoſtles, ſome Prechers, ſome Teachers, and Doctors euen vntill his comming againe, I aſke the Proteſtant, what Church that is, which is able to ſhew & proue, the continuance and vſe of the ſaide functions euer ſence Chriſtes time by plaine accompt of orderly Succeſſion.
I Aunſwere the Papiſt, that Chriſt hath geuen to his Church ſome Apoſtles, ſome Prophetes, ſome Euangeliſtes, ſome Paſtors, and Teachers. Epheſ. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. And we are able to ſhew & proue, that we continue in that vnitie of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God, for which ende ſuch offices were ordeyned. But whereas you require, that we ſhould ſhew you the continuance of thoſe functions by orderly ſucceſſion from Chriſtes his time vntill our dayes, you declare how ſmall ſkill you hauehave in vnderſtanding the ſcriptures, for the offices of Apoſtles, Euangeliſtes, and Prophetes, were not appoincted to continue alwayes in the Church, but for a time, vntill the Goſpell had taken roote in the worlde. Moreouer, whereas you requier an orderly ſucceſſion, according to perſons, or places, you are neuer able to proue, that any ſuch thing was promiſed to the Church, that we ſhould ſhew you the performance there of in our Church. Otherwiſe we doubt not, but God hath alway ſtirred vp ſome faithfull teachers, that hauehave inſtructed his Church in the neceſſarie poinctes of Chriſtian Religion. Although the worlde and the church of Antichriſt did not alwayes ſee them.
2 And is able to name you by the hiſtories of all ages, the notable perſonnes of all the forſaide ſtates, in their gouernment and miniſterie.
A Gaine I anſwere you, that you are not able to name, me any text of ſcripture, by which you can proue, that al theſe offices muſt hauehave perpetual cōtinuance in ye church of Chriſt, nor yet that any of them ſhould kepe an ordinarie ſucceſſion of place or perſons: But contrariwiſe, ſeeing it was prophecied that the church ſhould flie into the wildernes, that is, be driuen out of the ſight and knowledge of the wicked, and be ſo narrowly perſecuted of the Romiſh Antichriſt for a longe ſeaſon, it were a token our church were not the true church, if we could name ſuch notable perſons as you ſpeake of, in all ages floriſhing in their gouernment and miniſterie. And it is a good argument, that the Popiſh church is not the church of Chriſte, becauſe it was neuer hidden ſence it firſt ſprang vp, in ſo much that you can name all the notable perſons in all ages in their gouernment, and miniſterie, and eſpecially the ſucceſſion of Popes, you can reherſe in order vponupon your fingers, in which beadroole, neuertheleſſe you muſt name many tyrants, many traytors, one whore, many whoremongers, many Sodomites, many murtherers, many poyſenors, many ſorcerers, and Necromancers, and from Boniface the third, all blaſphemous heretikes, and Antichriſtes. But our church, which hath not had ſo many regiſters, chroniclers, and remembrancers hath perhaps fewer, but yet honeſter men to name: we can name Peter, Paule, Mathew, Iohn, &c. Marke, Luke, Timothe, Agabus, Epaphras, &c. Inſtinus, Irenaeus, Cyprianus, Athanaſius, Hylarius, Ambroſius, Auguſtinus, &c. Gyldas, Bertramus, Marſilius de Padua. Ioan. de Ganduno, Bruno Andagauenſis VVickleue, Iohn Hus, Hierome of Prage, &c. With the firſt, namely Apoſtles, Euangeliſtes, and Prophets, we conſent wholly in all pointes of doctrine, with the reſt, in the cheefe and moſt ſubſtantiall articles of faith, alwayes agreeing with any man, ſo farre as he agreeth with the worde of God.
3 And if he can proue vntounto me, that their Church hath neuer lacked the ſame appointed officers, or that any Church or Congregatiō but ours hath kept that charge, thē I recant.
FOr ſome of thoſe officers I hauehave twiſe aunſwered before, that they were not ordeined, to continue alwaies, with the church, wherefore they are not to be exacted of vsus, but ſuch officers as are neceſſary for the conſeruation of God his people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Chriſt, our Church hath neuer lacked, although in time of the great defection and Apoſtaſie whereof S. Paule doth propheſie 2. Theſſ. 2. there were but few, as there were but fewe members of Chriſt his Church notwithſtanding that through iniurie of the time, the remembraunce of all their names is not come vntounto vsus. And although we could rehearſe in order as many ſucceſſions in our Church as the papiſtes boaſt of in theirs, yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Chriſt, which muſt be tried onelyonly by the Scriptures, as S. Auguſtine ſayth in his booke de vnitate Eccleſiae, againſt the Donatiſtes cap. 16. Sed vtrum ipſi Eccleſiam teneant, non niſi diuinarum Scripturarum canonicis libris oſtendant, quia nec nos propterea dicimus nobis credere oportere quod Eccleſiae ſumus, quia ipſam quam tenemus commendauit Mileuitanus Optatus, vel Mediolanenſis Ambroſius, vel alij innumerabiles noſtrae communionis Epiſcopi, &c. But whether they holde the Church or no, let them ſhew none otherwiſe, but by the canonicall bookes of holy Scripture, for we our ſelues doe not therefore ſay that men muſt beleeue vsus that we are in the Church becauſe we hold the ſame Churche, which Optatus of Mileuitum hath commended, or Ambroſe of Millayn, or innumerable Biſhops of our communion. Euen ſo we require at the Papiſtes handes that ſhewe them ſelues to holde the Church not by ſucceſſion of Biſhops, or rehearſing of their names, but onelyonly by the Scriptures: for although we did rehearſe innumerable names of Biſhops in orderly ſucceſſion on our ſide we would not require men to beleue vsus, but onelyonly becauſe we proue the doctrine of our Church by the authoritie of the Scriptures. But as for the popiſh church, neyther hath nor euer had any of thoſe officers which S. Paule ſpeaketh of, for Apoſtles, Euangeliſtes, and Prophets, ſhe can chalenge by no reaſon, ſeing ſhe refuſeth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writings, in ſteede of paſtors & reachers ſhe hath wolues, dūme dogges, or falſe prophets, which either teach not at all, or elſe teach the doctrine of deuills & the dreames of men. And further I would deſire none other place in all the Scripture, to ouerthrow the popiſh Hierarchie (which is the greateſt glory of their Church) then this place of Paule, Epheſ. 4. he ſpeaketh of Apoſtles, Euangeliſts, Prophets, Paſtors and teachers. But where are Popes, Cardinalls, popiſh archbiſhops, Biſhops, Preeſtes, Deacōs, Subdeacons, Exorciſtes, Cantors, Acolyts, Oſtiares, Monkes, Friars, Chanōs, Nunnes, &c. Wherfore I cōclude that all theſe popiſh orders are no offices in the Church of Chriſt. And eſpecially, ſeeing the Apoſtle both in this place Eph. 4. and 1. Cor. 12. by theſe offices proueth the vnitie of minde, he acknowledgeth no Pope as one ſupreme head in earth, which might be very profitable (as the Papiſts ſay) to mainteine this vnity: for if there had bene any ſuch office appoynted of God, S. Paule in no wiſe woulde hauehave omitted it, eſpecially when it made ſo notably for the confirmation of his purpoſe, which was vnitie. To conclude if it be ſufficient, or any thing worth, to rehearſe the names of them that hauehave orderly ſucceded in all ages in the biſhops ſees, in an outwarde face of the Church, the Greeke Church is able to name as many as the Latine Church, and in as orderly ſucceſſion. Wherefore if you be as ready to performe as to promiſe, you recant.