Two Treatises Against the Papists, Article rebutted 23
The 23. article conteyneth 2. demandes.
1 Againe shew me any Church, or imagin if you can by good reason, a church of Christ in which there is no gathering together for preaching, no spirite of prophesying, no rodde of correction, no order of ministring nor any spirituall functiō that can be named, proue me that there should be a true Church for a thousand yeares together, and lacked all these thinges.
YOu would faine hauehave a great nombre of Articles and therefore you bring in one matter often times in diuers phrase of words, that it might seeme a new matter when it hath bene vttered twise or thrise before: as this Article is conteined before in the 5.8. and 9. Articles, where you shall finde it more largely aunswered. But let vsus see, what this strange demande requireth, we must shew him a church, or els imagine by good reason a church of Christ without preaching, ministring, and discipline for a thousand yeares together. Although we will not graunt that it hath so longe continued without these exercises, yet because you geue vsus leaue to imagine, we can imagine that it may as well continue without publike preaching, ministring, and discipline for a thousand yeares, as it did for three hundred yeares before Constantine. But you will say there was preaching ministring, and correcting, though it were not knowen to the tyrantes and persecutors, so say I vntounto you, for that thousand yeres there was gathering together for preaching, ministring, and correcting, though the Pope and his persecuting Prelates coulde not alwayes see it, nor come to the knowledge of it: for if they had once intelligence of it they smarted for it, as is knowen by the stories of the Waldenses, Bohemians, &c. Furthermore continuall exercise of preaching, ministring of sacramentes, and executing of discipline, are notes of a quiet and peaceable Congregation, not of a dispersed, persecuted, and disquieted Church. How often doth S. Cyprian cō plaine, that the brethren could not be gathered togither for executing of discipline, whereby it is certeyne, that likewise they coulde not be gathered togither for other exercises. Therefore the intermission of these exercises in a persecuted Church, doth not proue the same to be no true Church: But where so euer there be two or three gathered togither in the name of Christ, there is he in the middest of them. But whereas you require the spirite of prophesie (except you meane the gift of interpreting the Scriptures) the Church in the most quiet and flourishing state, may want the spirite of shewing things to come, as well as the giftes of tongues, healing, &c.
2 And withall, that there was an other vntrue Church which for those many dayes onelyonly practised to the saluation of many, all these offices: and geue me a good reason why this Church, that alwayes hath had these thinges should be a false Church, and the other that wanted them, to be a true Church, and I recant.
WE vtterly denye, that beside the true Church, there was an vntrue church, that practised those offices to the saluation of any man: for once againe I tell you, you hauehave neither the preaching of the word, nor ministring of Sacraments, nor execution of discipline, according to the truth of God his institution, but either altogither changed, or else greatly corrupted. And whereas you say, that the popish church onelyonly hath practised these offices: I aske you againe whether the Greeke Church be a parte of your Church, and whether the Papistes in England be a part of your Church. The Grecians you will say, are not: but the English Papistes are. Then hauehave I founde out by your owne iudgement, the Church of the Grecians, practising these offices being an vntrue church, & the church of ye English Papistes not practising the same, yet graunted of you to be a true Church. Therfore you are bound to recant.