Two Treatises Against the Papists, Article rebutted 14 – Article rebutted 15
The 14. article hath 5. demandes.
1 Also I demande what furniture or commodity in seruing God the Christianity of any age, or any part of Christendome had euer by your Congregations?
THe seruice of God hath small neede of furniture in outwarde thinges: for God being a spirite, is not worshipped with outward pompe but with spirituall and inwarde reuerence. And as for other furniture that is necessary, was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his successors, that were of our Church, before the reuelatiō of Antichrist. Notwithstāding the Church was in better case, before such furniture was graunted, than it was since. Therefore it is a small reason to chalenge the Church of Christ by outwarde furniture.
2 VVhat Churches did you builde for your assemblies and seruice?
OVr assemblies were kept in secret places, long time after Christes Ascension, in most cuntries, that were subiect to the Romane empire. Wherefore the building of materiall churches proueth nothing at all the builders to be members of the mystical Church, that is the body of Christ. Howbeit in such realmes and cuntries where the faith of Christ, was receiued by publike authoritie, as in this lande of Brytaine, there were churches builded as our Chronicles declare. And when Constantinus had geuen peace to the Church: he also builded Oratories and great Synagoges called Basilicas, for our assemblies and seruice.
3 VVhat Bishoprickes for the gouernment of the Church did you finde?
AS the church continued longe without materiall churches, so also without large possessions, for the lyuing of bishops, yet in Brytish Church our histories make mention that the possessions and places of the Pagane Flamines, and Archiflamines were conuerted to the vse of Ecclesiastical bishops and archbishops, so soon as Lucius, the king receiued the faith. Also the same histories do testifie, that when Augustine came into Britayn, there were still 7. bishops and one archbishop among the Britaines. And in the Romane Empier Constantinus, and other Christian Emperors appointed great possessions for the mainteyning of the ministers of the Church.
4 VVhat Vniuersities, Schooles, or Colledges, did you euer erect?
THe Church of God hath alwayes had schooles, or Vniuersities for the mainteinance of godly learning. For the first Colledges of monkes in solitary places, were nothing els, but Colledges of studentes, that were after, as occasion serued, taken to serue in the Church, as appereth by Chrysostome in his booke De Sacerdotio, where he sheweth yt Basilius, who was a Monke with him, was taken by violence and made a minister of the church, as he him selfe was afterwarde. Also in the bishops house was a colledge of studentes: and our histories testifie, that at Bangor, in Wales was a great Vniuersitie of learned men. Also of late dayes, you may heare that diuerse Vniuersities, Scholes, and Colleges are erected by Protestants, in Germanie, and other contries that hauehave receiued the gospel: As at Wittemberge, Geneua, Zuriche, Conigsperge in Prussia, &c.
5 Name one Church, not builded in all fashions, as well for the making of the chancells, the forme of the aultars, the vse of the chalices, the signification of the vestiments, as also for the speciall intent of the builders thereof. Name one of them in the whole Church of Christ, either erected for your Faith, Church, & seruice, or not prepared, in all sorts for catholike practises: Proue vntounto me that any of all those thinges were euer prouided for any other seruice and Religion then ours, or that they be monuments of any other Fayth and Church then the common Catholike, and I recant.
HEre are many wordes to litle purpose. What if it were graunted that all churches that now remaine were builded by Papistes, and for popish vses, what had you wonne thereby. The same chalenge might the Idolaters hauehave made to the Apostles: Shew vsus a temple in all the worlde that was not builded by Idolaters, and to mainteyne Idolatrie? Certeinly they could shew none when the Temple of Ierusalem was destroyed. But for all your bragges, we are able to shewe that such Churches as were builded by true Christians were not builded to such ende as yours are: for they were all builded in the honour of God, and the most of yours in the honour of creatures: for wheras you hauehave one Church in the honour of Christ, you hauehave neare a thousand in the honour of Sainctes: For Basilius magnus in his 141. epistle proueth ye holy Ghost to be God because he hath a Temple. For Omne Templum Dei Templum est. EueryEvery temple is the temple of God. Also Didymus, in his booke De spiritu sancto, which S. Ieronym translateth, vseth the same reason and to the same purpose. S. Augustine in the same matter is very plentifull: as in his booke De vera Religione cap. 55. speaking of the Sainctes he sayth: Quare honoramus eos charitate non seruitute, nec eis templa construimus, &c. Wherfore we honour them with louelove and not with seruice, neither doe we build temples vntounto them: for they wil not be so honored of vsus because they know that we our selues when we are good, are the temples of the highest. In this saying beside his iudgement for building of temples, note that he will not hauehave Sainctes to be honored with seruice, which he calleth seruitus, and is the same that dulia is, contrary to the Papistes which will worship them with seruice called dulia, or seruitus. Also in his 174. epistle to Pascentius, he sayth, the holy Ghost could not hauehave our bodies to be tēples except he were God, And in his Enchiridion ad Laurentium, cap. 56. he sayth: howe should he not be God which hath a temple? Also in the 8. booke cap. 27. De ciuitate Dei. Nec tamen nos ijsdem martyribus templa, &c. he sayeth: Christians builde no temples vntounto Martyrs which were to make them gods. And in the 22, booke cap. 10. De ciuitate Dei. Nos autem Martyribus nostris non templa sicut dijs, sed memorias sicut hominibus mortuis, quorum apud Deum viuunt spiritus fabricamus. Nec ibi erigimus altaria in quibus sacrificemus martyribus, sed vni Deo & martyrum & nostro sacrificium immolamus: ad quòd sacrificium sicut homines Dei, qui mundum in eius confessione vicerunt, suo loco & ordine nominantur, non tamen à sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur, Deo quippe non ipsis sacrificat quamuis in memoria sacrificet eorum, quia Dei sacerdos est non illorum. Ipsum verò sacrificium corpus est Christi quod non offertur ipsis quia hoc sunt & ipsi. that is: We truely do not build temples to our martyrs as vntounto gods, but memories as vntounto dead men whose soules liue with God. Neither doe we there set vp aultars in which we should sacrifice vntounto the martyrs, but to God onelyonly which is God both of the martyrs and of vsus, doe we offer sacrifice: at which sacrifice they are named in their place and order, as men of God which hauehave ouercome the world in his confession: yet are they not called vponupon by the Priest that doth sacrifice, for he offereth sacrifice to God and not to them although he doe sacrifice in their memorie, because he is the Priest of God and not of them, and the sacrifice is the body of Christ which is not offered vntounto them because they them selues are the same. Here also beside building of churches, note that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs, but prayer is a sacrifice, therefore it ought to be offered onelyonly to God. Secondly, that Martyrs were not called vponupon in tyme of the sacrifice but onelyonly named for remembrance. Thirdly, that Altares were not builded in the honor of Martyrs or other Sainctes as they be in Popish churches: as our Ladies altar. S. Peters altar. S. Laurences altar &c. Fourthly, that the bodie of Christ, which he sayeth was the sacrifice that was offered, was not the naturall body of Christ but his mysticall bodie, because he sayeth the Martyrs and it are all one, whereby it is manifest, that he meaneth the sacrifice of thankes giuing offered to God for the redemption of his church by the death of Christ. Wherfore if this one place were well wayed, it will interpret and aunswere all places of the auncient doctors, where mention is made of sacrificing the body of Christ at the time of the communion. But to returne to building of churches the same Augustine, contra Maximinum Arrianum. Lib. Titul. 11. hath these wordes: Nunc si templum alicui sancto angelo excellentissimo de lignis & lapidibus faceremus, anathematizar emin a veritate Christi, & ab Ecclesia Dei, quoniam creaturae exhiberemus eam seruitutem quae vni tantum debetur Deo? Si ergo sacrilegi essemus faciendo templum cuicun que creaturae, quomodo non est Deus verus cui non templum facimus, sed nos ipsi templum sumus? that is: If we shoulde builde a temple of wodde and stones to any holy and most excellent Angel, shoulde we not be accursed from the Trueth of Christ and from the Church of God, because we should shew that seruice vntounto a creature which is due onelyonly vntounto God? Therefore if we shoulde be sacrileges by making a temple to any creature, how is he not true God to whome we doe not make a temple, but we our selues are a temple. If this be true, how be not the Papistes accursed from the Trueth of Christ, and from the Church of God which builde and vpholde churches to Angells, as S. Michaels, S. Gabriels, &c? So that to builde churches as Papistes doe, is church robbing or sacrilege. Furthermore whereas you will vsus to name one church whose chancell is not builded in all fashions to serue poperie. First it is manifest that the first Churches which were builded for Christians had not the same fashion of chancels and other partes that most churches hauehave in Englande, for that purpose reade the Panegyricall oration made before Paulinus byshop of Tyrus. Euseb. lib. 10. cap. 4. In which is described the fashion of that church builded in that citie farre vnlike the moste parte of churches at this day in all partes, and specially in the chācel which was in the middest of that church, a place compassed in with grates or wodden latesses called Cancelli, wherof this worde chancel is deriued, and the aultar stoode in the middest of it wherof some similitude remaineth yet in olde Cathedrall churches. Contrariwise your chancells in most churches be at the East ende and the aulter hard at the wall, there was also but one alter in that church, but you in eueryevery church must hauehave many, it is certaine also in their church the Ministers and Deacons stoode rounde about the table or a…lter, but so they can not about your aultars except some of them stande on the toppe of the wall or in the windowe. Moreouer if you marke the most parte of olde churches in Englande you shall plainely see, that the chancells are but additions builded sence the churches, of likelihoode by the parsons that disdained to hauehave their place in the middest of the people as the olde manner was. Also you may see some churches builded rounde: as at London the Temple, and another is at Cambridge of ye same fashiō. And some churches hauehave the steple at the Est ende, very vnhandsomely for placing of the roode lofte. Againe many churches hauehave crosse Isles in which the people can not see the chancell, nor the high aultar, which argueth that there was no vse of such chancells when they were builded: For such churches as are latelie erected hauehave the chancell and church all of one building, and are made of such fashion that men maye see the highe aultar in eueryevery parte of them: Beside this, in the Orientall church, as their ceremonies are diuers from yours, so no doubt the fashion of their temples differeth from yours. As for chalices, the church in the beginning was cōtent with wodden cuppes, and then came Zepherinus and brought in the vse of glasses. Acacius Amidenus is commended for selling the golden and siluer vessels of the church, to redeme captiues. Socrat. lib. 7. cap. 21. S. Ambrose also Offic. lib. 2. cap. 8. sayth the church hath golde, not to kepe it but to be bestowed for necessarie vses, for which it is lawfull to breake, melt, and sel, euen the holyest vessells of all. But of your church it is true that one said of olde time: ye had wodden chalices, and golden priestes but now you hauehave golden chalices, and wodden priestes: your vestimentes are of as good stuffe as your chalices. The olde church knew none such, but as your owne Authors write: when they wente to celebrate they changed the affection of their minde rather than the garmentes of their body: as Antoninus witnesseth of Fulgentius. Howbeit we are content that your church by her gorgeous garments as well as by other thinges shoulde declare it selfe to be that woman which is described to be clothed in purple, golde, perles, and such like ornamentes Apoc. 17. Finally wheras you will vsus to name one church that for the speciall intent of the builders, was not prepared in all sortes for Popish practises: Although I could name many, yet for examples sake, I name Pantheon, a church in Rome, prepared by the speciall and onelyonly intent of the builders fo… Cybelle, the great mother of the gods and for all false gods of the heathen, which now is called the church of Mary and Alhalowes. Then this church with many other in Rome, and other places, being monuments of the faith and religion of the Paganes and not of yours, except yours and theirs be all one, as they are very like, you are bounde by your promise to recant.
The 15. article conteyneth in effect 3. demandes.
1 Againe name any one company of men in the Christen world that in all articles of Faith, be in one meaning and belefe.
IT is an easie matter to name diuers companies agreeing in one meaning & beliefe: as the church of the Grecians, the church of the Aethiopians, the church of the Chaldeans, Moscouites, &c. But especially the whole company of Protestantes in Europe doe agree in all necessary articles of true faith, by which we are iustified.
2 Or in thinges where they doubt, be contented to submit their seuerall meaninge to the iudgement of their Superiours.
THe Greeke church in doubtes will be ruled by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and so will the rest of the Orientall churches by their cheefe Patriarches and bishops. And the Protestants in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiours, so farre as their superiors are ruled by Gods his worde.
3 And to that communion and companie wherof they be, name any companie of men agreeing and thus humbly affected in Christes Religion, sauing the blessed fellowship and members of the Catholike communion, and I recant.
TO the communion and company of the Grecians, I name the Moscouites and Russians agreeing in Religion, and so humbly affected, and these are not of the fellowship, that you call the Catholike communion: Among the Protestants, to the church of Saxonie, I name the church of Dennemarcke, or to the church of Hel…etia, the church of France, or to the church of England the church of Scotlande, but so, that none of these allow any consent or submission, but to the Truth, which must be tried onelyonly by God his worde. And seeing none of these are of the Popish communiō, if your promise be any thing worth, you must recant.