Two Treatises Against the Papists, Article rebutted 11
The 11. article is so confuse that it is harde to bring it into any certeine numbre of demandes.
1 Againe I requier of the Protestants to declare by good histories, or by reasonable likelihoode when the true church, as they compt theirs, decayed?
I Answer, euen in the Apostles time, there arose many heresies which did not a litle trouble the Church, but immediatly after the Apostles time, while the fathers of the church were earnestly occupied, in resisting of horrible heresies, by the craft of Satan, some errors and abuses crept into the true Church of Christ, which at the first because they were small, and men occupied in greater matters, were either not espied, or not regarded: as may be knowen by the writinges of Iustinus Martyr, and Irenaeus, two of the most auncient writers, sence the Apostles time. Iustinus, was in this error, that he thought that the Angells lusted after women and therefore were turned into Deuills. It seemeth also, that the Church in his time, was in some error, about second mariages and diuorcements. Irenaeus, affirmeth, that our Sauiour Christ liued here 50. yeares, which he sayeth was receyued of them that heard it, euen of the Apostles mouthes. Also both he and Papias, which was before him and was the disciple of S. Iohn: are charged by S. Ieronym, in Catalogo Script. Eccl. to hauehave held this error, that Christ should raigne a thousand yeares after the Resurrection here in the flesh, whereby it is manifest, seeing these auncient fathers, and pillers of the Church were thus stayned with errors, that the Church in their time, could not be free from the same. And so it is euident, that the true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles times.
2 VVhat yeare the Religion of the Papistes came in and preuayled?
ALthough many abuses and corruptions were entred into the church of Christ immediatly after the Apostles time, which the deuill planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist. Yet we may well say, that the religion of the Papist…s came in, and preuailed, that yeare in which the Pope first obteyned his Antichristian exaltation, which was in the yeare of our Lord 607. when Boniface the third, for a great summe of mony, obteyned of Phocas, the trayterous murtherer, and adulterous Emperour, that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted, the head of all the Church. Since that time, that deuilish heresie hath alwayes increased in error, vntill the yeare of our Lord 1414. in which the Councell of Constance decreed, to robbe the people of the Sacrament of Christ his blood. From this time it hath againe decaied, being mightely subdued by the bright beames of the Gospell, shining in the world, and at the length shall be vtterly destroyed.
3 VVhether all their true Church was so soundly sleeping, that none could preach against it as it first entred.
1. Thess. 2. Math. 24.WHen the cōming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes, and wonders, in so much (that if it were possible) the very elect should be deceiued, and a general departing from the faith was foreshewed, and the Church to be driuen into the wildernes, what maruell were it? if none of our Church could preach against it, as it first entred: yet because you speake of the first entring of popish religion, which dependeth chiefly vponupon the Popes authoritie, you shall heare, that when it first began to aduaunce it selfe, there wanted not some, either to preach or write against it. When Victor, bishop of Rome about the yeare of our Lord 200. passed the bondes of his authoritie, in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia, many bishops withstoode him, and especially Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, and Policrates of Ephesus, as witnesseth Eusebius, libro 5. cap. 25. Eccle. S. Cyprian, also reproueth Cornelius, bishop of Rome, for that he was moued by threatning of heretikes to receiue their letters, & did not send them backe into Africa, to their own bishop lib. 1. Ep. 3. Also when Stephanus, bishop of Rome, was bold to communicate with Basilides, and Martialis, two Spaniards, that were iustly excommunicated and deposed by ye bishops of their owne prouince, & sought to restore them: Cyprian and his felow bishops of Aphrica, being required to giuegive their aduise, gaue counsell, that in no wise they shoulde be receiued, not a litle blaming Stephanus, that beinge far of, and ignorant of their cause; he would take vponupon him, to defend such wicked men. lib. 1. Ep. 4. Likewise when the same Stephanus, threatned excommunication to Helenus and Firmilianus, and almost all the Churches of Asia, because they thought that such as were baptized by heretikes, shoulde be baptized againe: he was misliked by Dionysius of Alexandria, and diuers other godly bishops, as appeareth by his Epistle wrytten to Xystus. Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 5. Cyprian also reproueth him very sharply, for the same opinion, accusing him of presumption and contumacy Epi. ad Pompeium, and in his epistle to Quintinus, he sayth plainly, that Peter himselfe was not so arrogant, nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the primacy, & that other men should obey him as his inferiors. When Anastasius, Innocentius, Zozimus, Caelestinus, bishops of Rome all on a row, chalenged prerogatiue ouer the bishops in Aphrica, by forginge a false Canon of the Nicene Councel, they were withstoode by all the bishops of Aphrica, who decreed, that none vnderunder paine of excommunicatiō, should appeale to any bishop, beyond the sea. Concil. Aphrican. cap. 92. and that the bishop of the chiefe see, should not be called prince of priestes, or highest priest, but onelyonly bishop of the chiefe see. Conc. Aph. cap. 6. When Celestinus byshop of Rome dealt hardly with the Nouatians, Socrates testifieth, he could doe not good with them, because they enuied his ambition, saying that the bishoprike of Rome, like as of Alexandria, was long before growen beyonde the bondes of priesthood, into foreine lordship. Lib. 7. cap. 11. By these examples it is plaine, that although the mysterie of iniquitie, beganne to worke in Victor, Cornelius, Stephanus, Anastasius, Innocentius, Zozimus, Bonifacius, and Caelestinus, yet it was reproued, by some godly men: as Irenaeus, Polycrates, Dionysius Alexandrinus, Cyprianus, the Councell of Aphrica, and Socrates the Historiographer.
4 VVhether all nations sodenly and in one yeare were moued to the doctrine of the Papistes, no one man of all their true Church neither preaching, teaching, writing, nor attempting any thing against it, or making mention of it.
WHen the scripture telleth vsus, that the mysterie of iniquitie, preparing for the generall defection, and reuelation of Antichrist, wrought euen in S. Paules time 2. Thess. 2. it is foly to aske, whether sodenly and in one yere all Religion was corrupted. And yet all nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes, for as it hath bene often saide, the Greeke church, and other Orientall churches, hath neuer receiued the Popish religion, in many cheefe pointes, and especially, in acknowledging the Popes authoritie: what preaching, teaching, and writing hath bene against it, is shewed before, and shalbe more declared hereafter.
5 VVhether sodenly all bookes of seruice were altered?
NO forsoothe, but by litle and litle, in the Latine Church: as for the Greeke & Orientall Churches, neuer receyued nor vsed your Latine seruice bookes.
6 VVhether in a moment, the Masse was saide in steede of other Apostolike Communion?
WHen Durande, your owne doctor, sheweth what Pope sewed on eueryevery patche, that belongeth to your Masse, it were foly for vsus to say: it came in sodenly, and impudencie in you, to affirme that it came whole from the Apostles, which was so long a framing in so many peeces.
7 VVhether men beganne sodenly to praye for the soules departed?
FIrst it is manifest, that men had no warrāt out of God his worde to pray for the dead: and it can not be proued for 200, yeares after Christ, by any credible author, that it was vsed in the Church: wherefore it is certeine, that it was first planted by the deuill, as were other abuses: And because it hath a pretence of Charitie, deceyued simple men the sooner. Yet did it not so preuaile, in the primitiue Church, that they durst define, what profit the soules receyued thereby: for Chrysostome in his 3. Homelie, vponupon the first Chapter of the Epist. to the Philippians, sayeth: Procuremus eis aliquid auxilij, modici quidem, attamen iuuemus eos. Let vsus procure them some helpe, small helpe truely, but yet let vsus helpe them. Likewise, Augustine in the 9. booke and 13. Chapter of his confessions, where he prayeth for his father and mother, declareth how vncertaine he was of that matter, one while he feareth the danger of eueryevery soule that dieth in Adam: An other while he beleueth, that they neede not his prayer, yet he desireth God to accept the same, and moue other men to remember them in their prayers: Thus it is necessary that they wander, which leane vntounto mens traditions without the worde of God.
8 Sodenly required the helpe of Sainctes in heauen?
WHether sodenly or by litle and litle, men were brought to such superstition, that they required helpe of Sainctes, it maketh litle matter, seeing it is contrary to the worde of God, and the example of the primitiue Church, for 200. yeares after Christ. Yet it is to be thought, that it grew vp, as other errors, by litle and litle. And S. Augustine in his booke, De cura pro mortuis agenda, wearieth him selfe, and in the ende can define nothing, in certeine, how ye Sainctes in heauen should heare the prayers of men, on earth. Such doubtfulnesse they fall into, that leaue the word of God, and leaue to traditions.
9 Sodenly the tongue of common prayers altered?
FIrst ye Greeke church, & other churches both in Asia, & Aethiopia, neuer receiued the Latine tongue: but to this day continue in their vulgare tongue. The Westerne Church, for the most parte all spake and vnderstoode Latine, as the sea coast of Aphrica, Italye, Fraunce, Spayne, Britayne: as for Germany, was lately conuerted to the faith. Then seeing they spake Latine, and had their common prayer in Latine: The tongue of their common prayer was not altered, but their speach was altered from the tongue of their common prayer: and this was not sodainely, for it was more than twelue hundred yeares after Christ before it wa… taken for a Catholike doctrine, that common prayer should be vsed in latine. S. Augustine preached in latine & all the people vnderstoode him, and that they might the better vnderstand him, he doth vse such phrases and termes which were not pure latine, but commonly vsed of the people as Ossum, and Foenerare, &c. But soone after his time, when the Gothes, and Vandalles, oueranne the Empire, the latine tongue which before was not pure among the people, began daily to be more corrupted, and yet remained after a sort latine, vntill the yeare of our Lorde 768. when Charles the great began to r…igne in France, and long after: for within the time of his reigne, which was 47. yeares, a Councell was holden at Turon, in France, what yeare it is not certeyne, but it is probable, that in the latter ende of his empire, in which it was decreed, that eueryevery bishop, should hauehave certeine homilies. Et easdem quisque apertè studeat transferre in rusticam Romanam linguam aut Theotiscam; quo facilius cuncti possint intelligere quae dicuntur. Turon. 3. cap. 17. And that eueryevery one studye to translate them plainly, into the rusticall Romane tongue or into the Theotisce tongue, that all men may more easily vnderstand what is sayd. By this Canon, it is euident, that at this time, the people vnderstood the Latine tongue, though it were very rude and rustical. And where the Canon prescribeth the same homilies to be translated either into the rude latine tongue, or into the Theotisce tongue. Although this word Theotisca, seeme to be corrupted, yet it is most certeine that they meant Dutch tongue, for as much as Carolus magnus, had a great part of Germanie vnderunder his dominion, and the Germanes, as neuer throughly subdued by the Romanes, neuer throughly receiued the latine tongue. Yet it is manifest, that they vnderstoode their common prayer in the latine tongue, though not perfectly, because the Canon sayth: Quo facilius &c. That all men may more easely vnderstand, signifying that they vnderstood the pure latine tongue though hardely and not perfectly. About the yeare of our Lorde 813. the knowledge of the latine tongue, beganne more and more to weare awaye, from amongest the common people, which when the bishops perceiued, they decreed in the Councell of Magunce, cap. 25. that eueryevery Sondaye, and holy daye, there shoulde be a sermon in such sorte, that the common people might vnderstand it: and in the 45. Canon. they decreed, that eueryevery Christian, shoulde learne the Creede, and the Lorde his prayer, Et qui aliter non potuerit, vel in sua lingua hoc discat, that is, And he that can not, yet let him learne it in his owne tongue. Whereby they declare, that they desier to reteine the latine tongue still, but rather than the people shoulde be ignorant, they commande them to learne their prayers and beleefe in their mother tongue. Also by the 43. Canon, wherein they iudge that no preeste can saye Masse alone, it appeareth that the people commonly vnderstood the latine seruice: for they aske how he shoulde saye: Dominus vobiscum, and admonish the people to lifte vp their heartes, and diuers like sayinges, where there is none by him but him selfe. Nowe if the people vnderstoode not these sayinges, it were all one, whether they were present or absent. Also in the Councell of Rhenes, holden in Fraunce about the same time, the like decree was made cap. 15. that bishops studie to preache sermons, and homelies of the holy fathers so that all men maye vnderstand, according to the property of their tongue. Finally in the Councell of Laterane holden vnderunder Pope Innocent the third, Anno Dom. 1215. in which Councell transubstantiation was first established, the 9. chapter, it was plainely decreed that forasmuch as within one citie and diocesse people of diuers languages be mingled together, hauing vnderunder one Faith, diuers rites, and maners, we streightly commande, that the bishops of such cities and diocesses, prouide able men, which according to the diuersitie of their rites, and languages, celebrate vntounto them, the diuine seruice, and minister the sacramentes, instructing them both by worde and example. Hereby it appeareth, that when the latine tongue, was either almost, or altogether growen out of the common peoples vnderstandings, order was taken that common prayers should be sayed and sacramentes ministred in the mother tongue of eueryevery nation. But the bishops which shoulde hauehave seene it put in execution, either negligently omitted it, or willingly refused to doe it, because it was more for their profit to kepe the people in blinde ignorance. So thus I hauehave shewed, that sodenly the tongue of common prayer, was not altered.
10 Tell me what yeare of our Lorde, vnderunder what Emperour, vnderunder what Pope, by whome these thinges were wrought, vponupon what occasion, this marueillous mutation was made?
WHo can tell the originall of eueryevery blind custome and peuish tradition, of eueryevery olde error and foolish fashion it is sufficient to shew, that these thinges hauehave no grounde in the scripture of God, they were not taught by Christ and his Apostles, nor receiued in the church that followed immediatly after them, and then we are bolde to say, with Tertullian: This preiudice there is against all heresies, how soeuer they came vp or when soeuer they sprange vp, That is true that was first, and that is false, that is latter, therefore from the beginning it was not vsed to praye for the deade nor to the deade, from the beginning common prayer was not in an vnknowen tongue. Wherefore prayer for the deade and to the deade, with prayer in a strange tongue are false, when soeuer they beganne, or how long soeuer they continued.
11 VVho preached against it, what historie maketh mention of it, who of all your Pastors preached against it, was God his Church so voide of the spirit of Trueth, and strength, that euen then when it most florished, it had none that durst open against …uch corruption of religion, as it entred in, and when it might soone hauehave bene repressed?
BEfore you demande what yeare the religion of the Papistes came, in and whether it came in sodenly: and as though we shoulde aunswere that it came in sodainely, you demande, who preached against it &c. This is to fight with your owne shadowe: for we say not that it came in sodainely, but that it entred by small degrees at the first and therefore was lesse espied by the true Pastors, especially being earnestly occupied against great heresies, and open aduersaries, that sought to beate downe the cheefe foundations of Christian faith, as the Valentinians, Marcionistes, Manichees, Arrians, Sabellians, and such like monsters. So when Satan had gotten in one foote, by such craftie pollitie, he neuer rested, vntill he had thrust in his whole bodie, with the power of Antichrist.
12 If it coulde not, shew me then what yeare of the Lorde this mutation was made, and who of all the true preachers did with stand this doctrine?
SO often as you demande one thinge, so often must I aunswere after one sorte, this mutation was not all in one yeare, nor in one hundreth yeares, nor in one thousand of yeares, for transubstantiation no small article of your religion, was not decreed vntill the yeare of God 1215. what preachers hauehave withstoode your doctrine at diuers times are declared before in the aunswere to the 8. Article 2. demande.
13 Or note the name of him that euer first preached any article of our doctrine: and if we note you not by their names, eueryevery one of your Capitaines, and the seuerall errors that they tought and the time, and the yeare when they arose against the former receyued trueth and the Councells in which they were orderly condemned if I, saye this can be done of your side towarde vsus, or if we doe it not for improofe of your Church and religion, I recant.
I HaueHave noted in the answere to the 6. article 3. demande, the names of diuers heretikes, that first preached diuers articles of your religion, and further I note vntounto you Pelagius, and Coelestius, which tought that free will without grace coulde doe somewhat towardes eternall saluation, and that grace was geuen according to merite, which article you teach also with culler of a distinction De congruo & condigno, which is a meere cauill: for God is as much bounde vntounto congruitie, as to dignitie or worthinesse, and as he can doe nothing against worthinesse, no more can he doe any thing against congruitie, which is a kinde of Equitie. And whereas you bragge, to note vntounto vsus eueryevery one of our Capitaines &c. except you note vntounto vsus the Patriarches, Prophets, Apostles, Euangelistes, and Christ himselfe, you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise, for we teache nothing but the eternall trueth of God, wherefore we refuse not to be counted heretikes, if you can proue, that we holde any one article of faith, contrarie to the scripture: you may perchaunce note the names of them, that preaching the trueth of our doctrine, against your receyued errors, were accounted of the world for heretikes, but you must proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God, or els all your labour is in vaine: we confesse also, that some articles of our doctrine, were taught by heretikes, as there was neuer no heresie, which had not many thinges common with true Religion, but yet in those poinctes they were no heretikes, neither did they erre. Yea but you will saye, they were condemned for those opinions, as erroneous. I will not dissemble, that which you thinke the greatest matter. Aerius tought, that prayer for the deade was vnprofitable, as witnesseth both Epiphanius, and Augustinus, which they compte for an error, but neither of them both, reproueth it by the scripture. Wherefore, if Aerius had not bene an Arrian, this opinion coulde not hauehave made him an heretike. Also he tought that fasting dayes are not to be obserued, if he espied the superstition of fasting dayes and reproued it, that was no error at all. But if Aerius was an heretike, for denying prayer for the deade to be profitable, why were the Heracleonites, accused of heresie, because they buried their deade with inuocations Epiph. lib. 1. Tom. 3. Haeres. 36. Augustine, also by authoritie of Philaster chargeth the same Aerius, with abstinence from flesh, if this be an heresie, then be all Papistes heretikes, which compte abstinence from flesh an holy fast. Againe you will bring in Iouiniane, which affirmed that virginitie was no better than mariage, which if it be well vnderstoode, is no error at all: for although virginitie in some cases and respectes, and for some persons is better than mariage: yet is it not simply, that is in all respectes and cases, and for all persons better than matrimonie. And if he tought further that such as coulde not conteine, though they had vowed Virginitie, shoulde neuerthelesse be maried, this was the doctrine of S. Paule: It is better to marry than to burne. And Epiphanius was of the same iudgement, although he compte it an offence to marrie after their vowe, yet he sayeth: It is better to marry then to burne. Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere, & non plura, &c. It is better to hauehave one offence, rather then many. It is better for him that is fallen from his course, openly to take a wife according to the lawe, and to repent longe time that vowe of his virginitie, and so againe be brought into the Church, as one that hath done amisse, as one that is fallen and broken, and hauing neede to be bound: rather then to be wounded daily, with priuy darts of that wickednes, which ye deuill putteth into him. So knoweth the Church to preach, these are the medicines of healing. Ep. lib. 2. Haer. 61. this medicine the popish church wil not acknowledge, but will separate them from their wiues, as they did in Queene Maries times. S. Ieronym also, who was a most bitter enemy vntounto Iouinian, plainly affirmeth, that rather then they which hauehave professed virginitie, shoulde liue incontinently, they ought to marrie. Sanctum Virginum propositum & coelestis angelorúmque familiae gloriam, quarundam non bene se agentium nomen infamat. Quibus aperte dicendum est, vt aut nubant, si se non possunt continere, aut contineant, si nolunt nubere. Epi. ad Demetriadem. That is: The name of certeine virgines, which behaue them selues not well, doth blemish the holy purpose of virginitie, and glory of the heauenly and angelike family. To whom must be plainly sayd that either they should marry, if they can not conteyne, or else conteyne if they will not marry. Note well this saying of S. Ieronym, the great aduancer of virginitie, and dispraiser of mariage. Moreouer if Iouinian taught that fasting, abstinence from certeyne meates, and other bodily exercise of them selues profit litle, his doctrine agreeth with S. Paul. 1. Tim. 4. but if he taught (as he is charged) that such thinges profited nothing at all, we agree not with him in that opinion. Last of all Vigilantius, shall be brought in, who wrote against inuocation of Saincts, superstition of reliques, and other ceremonies, him Ieronym reproueth or rather rayleth on him: for his reasons are nothing worth that he hath against him, therefore howsoeuer Ieronym estemed him in his rage, if he had none other opinions contrary to the truth: we doubt not to acknowledge Vigilantius (as many godly and learned Bishops of his tyme did) for a true preacher and reprehender of that superstition whereunto Ieronym was to much addict, although he doe somewhat qualifie the matter. If any man thinke his reasons to be effectuall, let him ma…ke this one, that he vseth, and thereby iudge the rest, he sayth of the Martyrs: Sequuntur agnum, &c. They follow the lambe whether soeuer he goeth. If the lambe be eueryevery where, therfore they which are with the lambe, are to be thought to be eueryevery where. Beside this euill consequence, consider what perilous assertions these be: that the lambe is eueryevery where, & that ye martyrs are eueryevery where, this is to destroy the humanitie of Christ, and to giuegive diuinitie vntounto the Martyrs: for Christ concerning his humanitie, according to which, he is called a Lambe, is not eueryevery where, but in one place alone, as S. Augustine sayth Ep. ad Dardanum 57. Secundum hanc formam non est putandus vbi que diffusus, that is: According to this forme it is not to be thought, that he is diffused eueryevery where. Againe no creature is eueryevery where, in more places than one, at one time. Wherefore to say that the soules of Martyrs, be eueryevery where, is to deny them to be creatures and so make them gods. I doubt not but S. Ieronym if he had quietly considered these absurdities, would hauehave reuoked them as erroneous and hereticall: but while he rather followed affection, then iudgement, you may see how he was deceaued. Thus seeing we hauehave noted to you the names of diuerse heretikes, which first preached certeyne articles of your doctrine, and you are not able to name any, which preached any article of our doctrine, but the same was consonant to the Scripture. If you were as ready to performe, as you are to promise, you should recant.
14 And for that purpose because the gouernment of the Byshop of Rome is most misliked of them, and yet most notoriously knowne by eueryevery historie, let them name the Pope that first brake of the course of his forefathers beleefe, & regiment in any article of fayth or necessary Christian vsage, and I recant.
I HaueHave named before Victor, which was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches. Also I hauehave named Boniface, the third, which was the first that chalenged to be vniuersall bishop: For Gregorie the great sayeth: Nemo meorum decessorum hoc prophano vocabulo vti voluit, That is: None of my predecessors woulde vse this prophane worde. The same Gregorie, as Hulderichus, bishop of Auspourge doth testifie, was ye first that compelled priests to liue vnmaried, which afterwarde when he saw the inconuenience, he reuoked. Thus hauing named diuers Popes that first brake the course of their fathers faith, and regiment &c. and more coulde rehearse but for auoyding prolixitie, I chalenge your promise that you must recant.