Two Popish Heretics Confuted, Confutation 2

Two Popish Heretics Confuted · Confutation 2

p. 24AN OVERTHROW of Stapletons Fortresse, or as he calleth it himselfe, the piller of Papistrie.

The first Booke.

CAP. I.

AN introduction, declaring the necessitie of the matter to be treated vponupon,Stapleton. and the order which the auothour wil take in treating thereof.

OMitting the necessitie of the mater,Fulke. his order which he promiseth to keepe is this. First he wil proue, if he can, that Papistrie is the only true Christianitie. This proposition he will followe by two principall partes. In the former he will proue by authority of Scriptures, and answering of the aduersaries obiections, that the Church cannot possibly erre. Secondly that this Church must be a knowne Church, that no malignant Church can preuaile against it: that Papistrie can be no schisme nor heresie. In the latter part after a fewe reasonable demandes that protestantes must not refuse to answere, putting the case that the knowne Church of 900. yeares is a kinde of papistry, he will proue that the faith of protestants is differing from that was first planted among Englishe men in more then fortie pointes, and that in all those pointes of difference, he wil shew they agree with the first 600. yeares, which he saith (but falsely) that protestants offer to be tried by. For although the Bishop of Sarum made challenge of many articles nowe holden of the Papistes, not to be founde within the compasse of the first 600. yeares, and therefore to be newe and false doctrines, yet neither he, nor any protestant liuing, or dead, did euer agree to receiue what doctrine so euer p. 25was taught within the first sixe hundreth yeares. But this I dare avowe, that what article of doctrine so euer we do affirme, that same hath bene affirmed of the godly fathers of the primitiue Church, what so euer we denie, the same can not be proued to hauehave ben vniuersally affirmed and receiued of all the godly fathers by the space of the 600. yeares together.

CAP. II.

That protestantes doe condemne the vuiuersal Church of Christ of these many hundreth yeares,Stapleton. and the reason of the whole disputation following grounded therevpon.

To prooue that the Protestants condemne the uniuersall Church of Christ these many hundreth yeares,Fulke. he alledgeth the sayinges of some Protestants, miserably wrested from their meaning: that Latimer was our Apostle, that Luther begat trueth, that the Gospel doth arise in the first appearing of the Gospel, &c: or as though by these sayings & such like they should deny, that euer there had ben any Churche in the worlde before these times, whereas eueryevery childe may vnderstand, they speake of the restitution of the truth of the Gospel into the open sight of the world, in these latter days. Likewise where some hauehave written, that the Pope hath blinded the world these many hundreth yeares, some say a thousand yeres, some 1200. some 900. some 500. &c. And the Apologie affirmeth that Christ hath saide: the Church should erre, he cauilleth that all the Church for so many yeares is condemned of all error. Whereas it is euident to them that will vnderstande that although some erronious opinions hauehave preuailed, & in processe of time hauehave increased in the greatest part of the Church, for many hundreth yeares, yet so long as the only foundation of saluatiō was reteined, the vniuersall Church of Christe so many hundreth yeares is not condemned. But when Antichrist (the p. 26mysterie of whose iniquitie wrought in the Apostles time. 2. Thess. 2.) was openly shewed, and that apostasy which the Apostle foresheweth, was fulfilled then and from that time, whensoeuer it was, not the vniuersall Church of Christ is condemned, but the general apopasie of Antichrist is detected.

THE ARGVMENT WHEREVP-on this first part of the vawmure of this Fortresse is builded, is thus framed by the builder himselfe.

The knowen Church of Christ doth continew, and shall continue alwayes,Stapleton. without interruption in the true and vpright faith.

But papistrie was the onelyonly knowne Church of Christ all these nine hundreth yeares.

Ergo papistrie all these nine hundreth yeares hath continued and shal continue alwayes euen to the worldes end without interruption in the true and vpright faith.

This argument hath neuer a legge to stande vponupon,Fulke. for vnderstanding (as he doeth) the knowen Church, to be that which is knowne to the world, to continue without interruption: so knowne to the worlde, the maior is false. For although the Church shall continue alwayes without interruption, yet it shall not continue alwayes so knowne, but, as in the dayes of Elias, be hid from the outward viewe of men.

Againe, the minor, that Papistrie was the only knowen Church, vnderstanding (as he doth) that it was only reputed, taken, and acknowledged so to be, it is vtterly false. For the Greeke & Orientall Church, which is not the Popish Church, hath beene reputed, taken, and acknowledged to be the Church of Christ, by as great a nomber of professors of Christianitie, as hauehave p. 27acknowledged the Popish Church. So that where he thinketh and saith, al his labour remaineth to proue y^e maior, you see that if he could proue it, yet al his labor is lost. But to follow him in his maior, he deuydeth it into two partes. The one, that the Church doeth alwayes continue in a right faith. The other, that this is a known Church. Both these he promiseth to proue by Scripture. And the first truely he shall not neede: but yet it followeth not, but that the church may erre in some particuler points, not necessary to saluation, although it continue in a right faith, concerning all principall and necessarie articles.

CAP. III.

Euident proofes & cleare demonstrations out of the Psalms,Stapleton. that the Church of Christ must continue for euer without interruption, sounde & vpright.

He is plentifull in prouing, that which needeth no proofe,Fulke. that the Church of Christ shall continue alwayes: and first out of the 88 Psalme, which he rehearseth and interpreteth of the Church out of Augustine, lest he should trust his owne iudgement, as he fantasieth, that our preachers do, altogether refusing to read interpreters. Wee affirme that the Church of Christ hath and shall continue to the worldes ende, but we deny, that the Popish Church is that, which could not be before there was a Pope, before their heresies were brought out of the bottomlesse pit, which were not breathed vp all in 600. yeares after Christ, no not in 1000 yeares after Christ, and some not almost in 14. hundreth yeares after Christ, I meane the sacrilegious taking away of the communion of the blood of Christ from the people in the councell of Constance. What impudencie is it of Papistes, to vrge the perpetuall continuance of Christes Churche, without interruption, and then to begin at 600. yeres after Christ: and not to be able to shewe a perpetuall p. 28course of all their doctrine, from Christ his Apostles and the primitiue Church?

But to proue that the church of Christ cannot possibly (as Protestants wickedly do fable,) hauehave fayled and perished these many hundreth yeares, he citeth the 61. Psalme, with Augustines exposition thereupon. But what Protestant so fableth M. Stapleton? you had neede to make men of paper, to fight against the paper walles of your fantasticall fortresse. The Papistes when they cannot confute that we say, they wil beate downe that we say not. How saye the Protestantes that these 900. yeares and vpward, the Church hath perished: it hath beene ouerwhelmed with Idolatrie and superstition? The Protestants neuer sayde so M. Stapl. The Church hath not perished, though the greatest part of the worlde hath beene ouerwhelmed with idolatrie and superstition. God can prouide for his chosen, that they shall not be drowned, when all the worlde beside is ouerwhelmed. Another testimonie to the like effect, and with the like conclusion, he bringeth out of y^e psal. 104 & thereupon a pithy syllogisme. We proue the Catholike Church by the continuance of Christianitie. The continuance of Christianitie only in Papistry is cleare, ergo Papistry is only the true Church of Christ. Nego tibi minorem M. Stepl. When will you proue the continuance of Christianitie only in Papistrie, when Papistrie began since Christ & his Apostles: and if you meane Christianitie, for the externall profession of Christes religion: then will you proue the Orientall Churches to be papistrie, which defye the authoritie of your Pope?

Last of all, out of the Psalm. 101. and Augustines application of the same against the Donatistes, which sayde that the church was perished out of al the wor…d except Affrica where they were, he would compare the Protestants to them, whereas in deede the Papistes are more like to them. For they holding that there is no Church of Christ but the Romish church, affirme in effect as the Donatistes, that the Church of Christ for p. 29many hundreth yeares hath perished out of all partes of the world beside Europa, where onelyonly & yet not in all partes thereof they hauehave borne the sway. Whatsoeuer therefore Augustine writeth against the Donatistes, for shutting vp the Church of Christ onelyonly in Affrica, may be rightly applyed to the Papistes, for restraining it onelyonly to a part of Europa. But contrary to the Papistes and Donatistes, we affirme, that the Catholike church of Christ is and hath beene, euen in the most darke times of Antichristes kingdome, dispersed throughout the whole world, nothing doubting, but God, which preserued 7000. in one corner of Israel, not much greater then some shyere of England, hath preserued seuen thousand thousande, in all partes of the wyde world, which neuer bowed their knees to the Romish Baal, nor kissed him with their mouth.

CAP. IIII.

Proofes and testimonies one of the Prophet Esay,Stapleton. that the Church of the Messias continueth for euer vntounto the worlds end, assisted alwayes by God himselfe.

The testimonies of the perpetuitie of the Church out of the Prophet Esay,Fulke. with the exposition of Hieronyme vponupon them, maketh nothing against vsus, which willingly acknowledge the same: But denye that they perteine to the Popish Church, which had her beginning long after Christe and his Apostles, and her full tyranny confirmed more than 1000. yeares after Christe. The same Hierome disputeth against the custome of the particular Church of Rome, and appealeth to the Church of all the worlde. Si auctoritas quaeritur, orbis maior est vrbe, &c. If authoritie be sought, the world is greater then a citie. And againe: Quid mihi profers vnius vrbis consuetudinem? What bringest thou forth to mee the costome of one citie? Euagr. We stand for the Catholike Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world, against the particular, schismaticall, p. 30hereticall, and Antichristian church of Rome, which though shee hauehave inuaded by tyranny ouer a great part of Europe, yet neuer did shee preuaile ouer the whole Church throughout the world, not yet ouer all Europe.

CAP. V.

The doctrine of Caluine touching the Church,Stapleton. is examined to the touchstone of the holy Scriptures alledged: Wherein also is treated and disputed, by what markes the Church may be known.

First he confesseth that Caluine hath learnedly, largely, and truely,Fulke. treated of the vnitie, authoritie, and obedience of the Church. He affirmeth also, that he acknowledgeth a visible Church in the worlde, whose communion we ought to keepe, and of her to receiue the spirituall foode of doctrine and sacraments, which ought not to be forsaken for the euil life of the members thereof. All this he commendeth and alloweth. But herein he sheweth his malicious cauilling stomak, that he supposeth Caluine to affirme, that the vniuersall Church of Christ is visible, where he speaketh but of particular congregations members of the whole, which are visible, not to the world always, but to the members of the same.

The markes of the Church which Caluine sayeth to be, true preaching of the worde of God, and due administration of the sacraments, although he confesseth them to be in the Church, yet he denyeth them to be the markes of the Church. For the marke must be better knowne then the thing whereof it is a marke, but the Church is more euident then those markes: ergo they be no true markes. The minor he proueth by that which Caluine teacheth, that wee must learne of the Church the true meaning of the Scripture. But hereof it followeth not, that y^e Church is better known then these markes. For there is a farther p. 31tryal which ought to be better known: by which both are to be knowne: namely the worde of God, whereunto wee must hauehave recourse, to trye whether those things that are preached, are euen so in deede, as the Thessalonians did, by the preaching of Paul & Barnabas, Act. 17. ver. 11. The vnmouable trueth is to be sought in the Scriptures, what preaching or Church agreeth with that trueth, is to be receiued & none other. And whereas he sayeth that Heretikes challenge these markes as well as Catholiks, I grant they do so, but no more do they challenge these markes, then they challenge the Church to be on their side, for there was neuer heresie, but they bragged as much of the Church as of the trueth. Therefore the Church is not more cleare then these markes, but these marks tryed by y^e worde of God, are more cleare then the Church, which is therefore the Church because it maintaineth true doctrin. The doctrine is not true because the Church maintaineth it. The cause is better known then the effect: for knowledge is to vnderstand by causes.

But M. Stapl. hath two better markes then Caluine describeth. To wit: the vniuersalitie and communion of all nations: The continuance and euerremaining thereof among Christians. These markes by no Logyke, can be causes of the Church, but adiuncts vntounto it, and therefore the worst arguments that can be to knowe it by: euen such as the foolish mans argument was, that knew his horse by the brydle. But admitt these to be proper adiuncts of the Church, yet shall not the popish Church be able to prooue those to be her markes. For Popery neither doth, neither euer did possesse all the worlde, except a peece of Europe be all the world. The Church of Christ is Catholike, although there were but three of foure persons in all the worlde that mainteined true doctrine, as there was not many when Christ & his Apostles and a fewe other were the onelyonly Church p. 32in all the world, and the Catholike Church, before they were dispersed into many nations. For y^e Church is called Catholike or vniuersall, not because all men or most men do pertaine vno it, but because all that be members of Christ, howe many or howe fewe so euer they be, and wheresoeuer they be, are members of that Church But M. Stapl. sayth: The vniuersalitie of the Church is a matter euident to the eye, & therefore the Catholike Church is alwayes visible. To this I answer, that if the Catholike Church, or the vniuersalitie thereof, were alwayes visible, or at any time visible, or the vniuersalitie thereof euident to the eye: it should be no article of faith: for faith is of such things as are not seen with the eye, but beleued with the heart. Heb. 11. ver. 1. We agree with Augustine against the Donatists, that no heresie was in all countreys & in all ages. For Papistrie which is the greatest heresie & apostasye, was neuer in all countryes & all ages. But if an heresie were in all countries and ages, yet proueth it not it self to be a Catholike trueth. Idolatrie hath beene in all countries and ages, yet is it not thereby prooued to be a Catholike trueth. The Church of Christe whereof we are members, hath bene in al partes of the world, and in all ages, though not alwayes not euer receiued of the greatest part of men. And if this be a most cleare and euident marke (as he saith) that no heretike can pretende to be ioyned in communion with all Christian countries. The Popish Church hath not this marke, which is not ioyned in communion with the Greekes, Armenians, Chaldeans, Aethiopians, and so many nations as at this day, and since the Apostles times hauehave bene Christened Countries.

But nowe wee come to the seconde marke of the Church. The continuance thereof from the beginning to the ende of the worlde, which is in deede a proper adiunct of the Church of Christe, not to be found in any heresie, nor in papistry the greatest of all heresies. But M. Stapleton, which cannot proue that p. 33Papistrie hath continued alwayes, will argue vppon that it hath continued a certeine time. The Church (saith he) hath continued a certeine hundred yeares in that faith and doctrine onelyonly which Papistes do teache: But in those very hundreth yeares, the Church neither could lacke, neither coulde hauehave a wrong faith, or be seduced with damnable doctrine. Therefore Papistes had all that time the true faith, and their faith and doctrine is true, sound, and vpright. The maior of this argument he affirmeth to be our confession, which is nothing else but an impudent lye of his owne confiction. For which of the Protestantes euer confessed that the Church hath continued so many hundreth yeares in that faith and doctrin onelyonly, which the Papistes teache? If he hauehave the wit to drawe such confessions from vsus, he may proue what he list against vsus. But he promiseth to proue abundantly the continuance of Popish doctrine from the beginning, which wee so stoutly denye. In the meane time he returneth to Caluine, whome he chargeth to hauehave learned his opinion and doctrine of the Donatistes, concerning the markes of the Church. Taking to witnesse the Ep. 48. of Augustine ad Vincentium, where the Donatistes answered the argument of vniuersalitie: that the Church was called Catholike, Not because it did communicate with the whole worlde, but because it obserued all Gods commaundementes & all his sacraments. But what a vaine quarell this is, he him selfe doth sufficiently declare, when he bringeth in Augustine immediatly, confessing the Church to be called Catholike, because it holdeth that veritie wholly and throughly, whereof eueryevery heresie holdeth a parte or peece onelyonly, and addeth thereunto the cō munication with all nations: videlicet, that holde that veritie wholly and throughly. And lest this might seeme to be borrowed of the Donatistes onelyonly, Augustine him selfe affirmeth as much, de Genesi ad literam imperfect. Cap. 1. Constitutam ab eo matrem ecclesiam, … Catholica dicitur, ex eo quia vniuersaliter perfecta est, & p. 34in nullo claudicat, & per totum orbem diffusa est. That by him the Church is appointed our mother, which is called Catholike, for that it is vniuersally perfect, & halteth in nothing, and is dispersed throughout the whole worlde. Whereas Augustine requireth vniuersall perfection in all true doctrine and administration of the sacramentes with vniuersalitie, the Papistes take vniuersalitie alone, which Augustine neuer sayde nor taught, to be a sufficient note of the Church.

After this he chargeth Caluine to denye the perpetuall continuance of the Church, because he sayde, that the pure preaching of the worde hath vanished away in certeine ages past, by which he meaneth not (as this foolish cauiller taketh him, or rather mistaketh him) that true preaching had vtterly perished out of the whole worlde, but out of the Popish Synagog, which in Europe boasted it selfe to be the onelyonly Church of Christe, when in the chiefe articles of Christianitie, it derogated from the glorye of Christ, and was subiect to the doctrine of the man of sinne, the aduersary and enemy of Christ. And if malice had not blinded him, he woulde hauehave so vnderstoode Caluine, alledging his saying immediatly after, wherein he confesseth, that the Church of Christ neuer fayled out of the worlde. Whereupon he demaundeth whether the Church of the Protestants is that which hath neuer fayled? If wee saye, it is, he demaundeth further, where those markes of preaching and ministring of the sacraments hauehave beene these many hundreth yeares? which question he hopeth some disciple of Caluine will assoile him. I aunswere those markes were to be seene in such places, where the Churches were gathered, that had separated them selues from the Church of Rome. If he vrge mee further, to shewe him the particuler places, let him resort to the booke of Actes and monumentes, which it seemeth he hath read ouer. If p. 35that will not satisfye him, by example of our Sauiour Christ I will refell his vaine question with another question: Where did those 7000. that GOD preserued in the dayes of Elias, assemble for prayers, preaching, and sacrifice. If he cannot tell, no more am I bounde to shewe him in what particuler places they preached and ministred the Sacramentes. And therefore neither neede the Apologie to recant, nor the Harborough be reuoked, nor M. Foxe call in his booke, nor M. Nowell his reproofe. It will not suffice a wrangling cauiller, an hundreth times to affirme, that the Church hath alwayes continued, euen when Papistrie moste preuailed, and euen vnderunder the tyrannie and persecution of Papistrie: like as the Church was among the idolatrous Baalites in the dayes of Elyas, or among the wicked Iewes that persecuted the Prophets. But hereto he replyeth, that though the assemblies of the Iewes were no Churches, yet their temple, sacrifices, ceremonies, lawe, and doctrine was good. I aunswere, so much of these as they reteyned according to Gods lawe, was good, and so I confesse of the doctrine and sacramentes of the Papistes. As Baptisme, concerning the substance of the sacrament: the historicall faith of the Trinitie: of the incarnation, passion, resurrection of Christ, &c. But if these and many more pieces of trueth, might be sufficient to make them the Church of Christ, many heretikes might challenge the Church, which hauehave confessed & practised a great number of truthes, more then they, which erre but in one article, as the Arrians, Pelagians, &c. Where as the Papistes erre in many: yea, in the whole doctrine of iustification by faith, and the worship of God. And therefore Papistrie is not onelyonly a schisme, errour, or heresie: But as Caluine out of Daniel 9. and Paul, 2. Thessal. 2. rightly concludeth, an apostasie, defection and antechristianitie, not abolishing, but reteining the names of Christe, of the Gospell, & p. 36of the Church: but the true vertue, power, and strength of the same, vtterly forsaking, denying, and persecuting.

CAP. VI.

Other prophecyes alledged and discussed for the continuance of Christes Churche,Stapleton. in a sounde and vpright faith.

Diuerse textes of Scripture are cited,Fulke. some rightly, some strangely applyed, to proue that wee deny not, namely the perpetuall continuance of the Church of Christ, in a sounde and right faith, in all matters necessary to saluation. Vppon eueryevery one of which, he inferreth: howe could Christe forsake his Church these …00. yeares, as though wee saide that Christe hath had no Church in the space of nine hundreth yeares, which we neuer doubted of.

CAP. VII.

Proofes out of the Gospell,Stapleton, for the continuance of Christes Church, in pure and vnspotted doctrine.

When M. Stapleton commeth to proue that which wee denye,Fulke. his proofes will be neither so plentifull, nor so sufficient. His counterfait painted Fort must hauehave puppets made to assaile it. The Church of Christ concerning the substance of doctrine necessary to saluation, shall continue pure and vnspotted, although in other matters, shee may be deceiued, euen as eueryevery one of Gods elect, for whome our Sauiour Christ prayeth, Iohn 17. which text M. Stapleton citeth to proue the continuance of the Church. Wee will neuer say, that hell gates hauehave preuailed against the vniuersall Church of Christ, though they hauehave preuailed against the see of Rome. Yet must wee say, as the Scripture teacheth vsus, that Antichrist shal prevaile in the worlde, 2. Thessal. 2. One Scripture is neuer contrary to another. Wee are challenged to p. 37reade you out of the Scriptures, the breach, interruption, and fayling of the Church of Christ so manye hundreth yeares. As you vnderstand the breach and fayling, for an vtter abolishing of the Church of Christ out of the worlde: such breache and fayling, as wee do not read it, so wee do not affirme it. But that wee affirme, wee reade that in the latter dayes some shall depart from the faith, attending to spirites of errour in hypocrisie, &c. whose markes are to forbid marryage, and to abstaine from meates which God hath created, &c. 1. Tim. 4. Wee read, that before the comming of Christe, shall be an apostasie, and the man of sinne shalbee openly shewed, which shall deceiue a great parte of the worlde, 2. Thess. 2. We reade that the whore of Babylon, which all auncient writers expound to be Rome, shall with her sorcerie enchaunt & make dronke all nations, &c. Apoc. This and much more we reade, to shewe what your vniuersalitie is, and to take away the obiection of our paucitie, and not appearing to the greatest part of the worlde, at such time as it pleased God, for the vnthankfulnesse of men, to send them the efficacie of errour, to be deceiued, because they woulde not receiue the trueth.

CAP. VIII.

To denye the continuance of the Church in a sound & vpright faith,Stapleton. is to defect the mysterie of Christes incarnation.

This man hath great leasure, with store of ynke & paper,Fulke. that filleth so many chapters, which proofe of that, which none of his aduersaries will denie Who al with one mouth confesse, and cry out against him so loud, that if he were not either deafe or dead, he might heare: that as Christe the head continueth for euer, so doeth the Church his bodye: but that the Popishe Church at this time and many hundreth yeares before this time is the body of Christe, the spouse of Christe, p. 38the flocke of Christes sheepe, which is deuided from Christ, which is an adulteresse from Christ, which heareth not the voice of Christ: this we all denie, and this you shal neuer be able to proue while the world standeth, babble and scrible as long as you will.

CAP. IX.

That Protestants doe condemne the practise and beliefe of the first 600. yeares in many thinges,Stapleton. no lesse then of this latter age.

If Papistes doe allowe the practise and beleefe of the first 600. yeares in all thinges,Fulke. they may iustly reproue vsus for refusing the same in some things. But if they refuse the practise and beleefe of that age in many things, bicause their Church, their iudge, doth now practise and holde the contrarie: why should they require vsus to be bound to the practise and opinion of those times in all things, when by Scriptures, the only rule of trueth, with vsus, we finde that they hauehave erred in some things. But to leaue his impudent rayling and lying, that we or any of vsus, did euer offer to iustifie what so euer was done or helde by godly men of the first 600. yeares: let vsus see what practise and beleefe he chargeth vsus to condemne.

First (saith he) they not onelyonly reproue certaine Fathers for certaine errours, but in many pointes they condemne all the Fathers, for common errours: as inuocation of Saintes, and praier for the dead. And doe not you Papistes, reproue the practise of al the Fathers, & Pope Innocent with them, not onelyonly for ministring the Communion to infants, but also for holding that they be damned, except they receiue the Communion? Augustim. Cont. duas ep. Pelag. ad Bonifac. lib. 2. cap. 4. Doe you not reproue y^e practise & opinion of all y^• Fathers, for allowing mariage in the ministers of the Church, which you vtterly condemne? What shall I say of the p. 39Communion in both kindes, giuen to the lay people, by consent of all antiquitie, of communicating with the Priest, and many such like thinges: the practise and beleefe whereof you vtterly refuse?

But to returne to the examples of inuocation of Saintes, which Stapleton saith, are cleare by all writers of the first 600. yeares, rayling like a saucie marchant at M. Iewell and M. Grindall, men whose learning and godlinesse he may enuie, but will neuer attaine vntounto. What a bolde bayard is this, to affirme that innocation of Saints is cleare by all writers of the first 600. yeares, when no writer of 300. yeares after Christ, hath any one iot either of practise or beleefe to alow it? Epiphanius among the heresies of y^• Caianes counteth inuocation of Angels. Tom. 3. Haer. 3. The other errour of praying for the dead is more auncient, but yet it sprang first from the heresie of Montanus, neither is there any writer auncienter then Tertullian a Montanist, in whome any steppes of praier for the dead are to be found. To these he adioyneth a slaunder of Caluine, whome he affirmeth to teach, that God is the cause and authour of euill: which how impudent a lye it is, all they that hauehave read Caluine of Predestination can testifie. The reseruation of the Sacrament of the Lordes supper, Caluine confesseth to hauehave bene an erronious practise of the ancient Church. And what say you Papistes? was it not erronious to reserue that which Christ commaunded to be eaten and dronken? But you make no bones of Christes commaundement. If it were not erronious, why was it forbidden in diuers Councels?

If you care not for that, yet thinke not to mocke y^e world with the auncient practise of reseruation, which you your selues condemne. Will you suffer men and women to carie home the sacrament and locke it in their chestes? to hang it about their neckes, to receiue it in their houses when they list? If you allowe not these thinges which was the reseruation of auncient p. 40times, you are twice impudent to charge vsus for reprouing that practise, which you your selues doe not admit to be lawfull. But yet againe, he chargeth Caluine to condemne the whole primitiue Church of Iewish superstition, for saying the Fathers folowed rather the Iewish manner of sacrificing, then the ordinance of Christ in the Gospell. What a shamelesse beast is this, to slander Caluine to condemne the whole primitiue Church? when he speaketh only of the later and more corrupt times, in which he sheweth their errour, but condemneth not the Church.

But nowe he will proue, that Protestantes hold sixe heresies condemned within the first 500. yeares. The first is iustification by faith only, condemned in Aerius and Eunomius, August. Haer. 54. Epiph. Haer. 76. which is a very shamelesse slaunder, for there is no such iustification by faith onelyonly condemned in them, as we holde, which no man of the auncient Fathers more copiously defendeth, then Augustine him selfe. The second is also a most impudent lye, that to condemne free will in man, to worke well, as we meane it, is an heresie of y^e Manichees & Marcionistes: for both which opinions as we holde them, Augustine him selfe shall speake, Ep. 105. Sixto. Restat igitur vt ipsam fidem vnde omnis iustitia sumit initium, propter quod dicitur ad ecclesiam in Cantico canticorum: Venies, & pertransies ab initio fidei, non humano, quo isti extolluntur, tribuamus arbitrio, nec villis praecedentibus meritis, quoniā inde incipiunt bona quaecun que sunt merita, sed gratitū donum Dei esse fateamur, si gratiam veram, id est, sine meritis cogitemus. Therefore it remaineth, that we ascribe not faith it selfe (from whence all righteousnesse taketh beginning, for which it is said vntounto the Church in the Balat of Balats, Thou shalt come & passe through from the beginning of faith) vntounto mans free will, whereof they are proude, nor to any merites going before, for all good merites what so euer they are, beginne from thence▪ but that we confesse it to be the freely giuen gift of God, if we thinke o… true grace p. 41which is without merites. Thus writeth Augustine against the Pelagians, which mainteined free will to do wel, and were counted heretikes therefore: the contrar…e whereof Stapleton doth nowe count to be heresie in vsus. The third heresie imputed to Aerius, was the deniall of praier for the dead, which neither Augustine, nor Epiphanius that count it for an errour, can by the word of God conuince to be so. The fourth is Iouiniaans opinion▪ making marriage equall with virginitie, which we doe not hold, but that in some respect virginitie is preferred, as the Apostle teacheth, 1. Cor. 7. But y^t we exhort them to marrie which can not keepe their vowe of continence, which rashly and presumptuously they made, we are warranted by Epiphanius Contra Apostolicos, Haer. 61. Hieronym. Ad Demetriadem. The fift, that is, the contempt of fasting daies appointed by the Church, we holde not with Aerius and Eustachius, but cōtrariwise, that they are to be obserued, although we make none account of the fasting daies appointed, and superstitiously kept by the Popish Church. The sixt, the superstition of Christians vsed at the tombes of Martyrs, we condemne with Vigilantius and Augustine, De moribus ecclesiae Catholicae lib. 1. cap. 34. Neither is Vigilantius condemned of any man in his time, but by the priuate iudgement of Hieronyme only.

Nowe in howe many heresies the Papistes communicate with the olde heretikes, I hauehave shewed before in other treatises, which it were needlesse here to repeate.

CAP. X.

Obiections of Protestants to proue the Church may erre,Stapleton. by the example and similitude of the olde lawe, aunswered and confuted.

The obiection is onelyonly this out of the Defence of the trueth fol. 94. as he saith: The Church of the Iewes lacked not Gods promises,Fulke succession of Bishops p. 42and priestes, opinion of holynesse and austeritie of life, knowledge of the lawe of God: And yet they erred, why may we not thinke the like may be in this our time. Both maior & minor of this argument he saith is false: for first they had not such promises as the Church of Christ hath, of perpetuall continuance in the trueth, bicause they were not appointed to continue alwayes, wherein he bewraieth his grosse & beastly ignorance, that can not discerne betweene the nation of the Iewes, and the Church of God among the Iewes, which hath euen the same promises of euerlasting continuance, that the Church of the Gentiles hath, which is not an other Church from the Church of the Iewes, but an accession and an addition vntounto it. Howe many promises of eternall continuance, be made in the Prophetes to Israel, to Zion, to Ierusalem? Reade Esa. ca. 60. 62. & 63. among a number. The accōplishment whereof, although it be seene in the Church gathered of the Gentiles, yet who would be so impudent to denie, that they pertaine principally to the Church of Israel, as to the elder brother? But what striue we further? when the Apostle to the Romanes, cap. 9. vers. 3. expresly affirmeth, that the promises pertaine to Israel, euen as the adoption, the glorie, the couenants, the giuing of the lawe, &c. yet M. Stapleton thinketh him selfe a sharpe disputer, when he obiecteth out of the Epistle to the Hebrues, Heb. 8. that the testament of Messias is established in more excellent promises, bicause of y^e new couenant out of Ieremie 31. as though both the testaments did not pertaine to the Catholike Church of Christ, as wel that of the Iewes, as this of y^e Gentiles. The newe Testament & promises are better, then that was made in Sinai, but the new testament of Messias, pertaineth as much to the Church of y^e Iewes, as to the Church of y^e Gentiles. Or els the Apostle had laboured in vaine, writing to the Iewes, to drawe thē from the ceremonies of the olde testament, to the couenant of Messias, established onelyonly in merciemercy and forgiuenesse p. 43of their sinnes. Christ was the Lambe slaine from the beginning of the world, whose redemption pertained as much vntounto the fathers that liued before his incarnation, as vntounto them that are borne sincer therfore the promise of the eternitie of the Church, beginneth not at the natiuitie of Christ, but at the beginning of the world. So that for continuance and perpetuity of Gods spirite with his Churche, without the which it can not be the Church of God, the promises from the beginning, hauehave bene the same that are now, although according to Gods moste wise dispensation, they hauehave bene more clearely reuealed in the latter times, & most clearely of all by Christ himselfe and his Apostles.

Now remaineth the minor to be proued. That the Church of the Iewes hath erred. Which he denieth, because the high priestes answered truely of the natiuitie of Christ, & because Caiphas prophecied vnwittingly of the vertue of Christes death, then the which nothing can be more blockish. They erred not in one article, ergo they erred not at all. One of them spake the trueth against his will in one point, ergo the synagogue of the Iewes neuer erred. Againe he saith, the whole synagogue, before the law of Christ took place, in necessary knowledge of the lawe of Moyses did neuer erre. For proofe whereof, more like a blocke then a man, he bringeth such places of Scripture, as either shew what the Priestes duty should be, but not affirme what their knowledge was, or else prophesie a reformation of the corrupt state of the Cleargie, from ignorance to knowledge. As Ez. 44. The Priestes & Leuites shall teach my people. And Mal. 2. The lippes of the Priest should kepe knowledge, and men should require the law of his mouth. Agg. 2. Aske the priest the Lawe. But what dronken Flemming of Douaie, would reason thus? The Scribes and the Pharisees sate in Moses chaire, therefore the Synagogue did either neuer or not then erre. Our Sauiour Christ willed thē p. 44to be heard, while they spake out of Moses chaire, not while they taught to worship God in vaine, preferring their traditions before the commandement of God. But who would spend any more time in reasoning against such a one, as defendeth that the Scribes and the Pharises did not erre, whose false doctrine cōcerning adulterie, murther, swearing, the worship of God, not onelyonly the person, but also the qualitie of Messias and his kingdome, our sauiour Christ him selfe so often & so sharply doth reproue. But the whole synagogue (saith he) in necessary knowledge of the lawe of Moses did neuer erre. If he vnderstand the whole synagogue for euerie man, we confesse the same, and so we say that the whole Church, that is all the elect, neither in the first sixe hundreth, nor in the latter nine hundreth yeares, did neuer erre in necessary knowledge of the Gospel. But if you take the whole synagogue, for the whole multitude that had the ordinary authority, and did beare the outward face and countenance of the Church, they hauehave erred before the comming of Christ▪ Example in the whole synagogue, in the dayes of Iosias, when the very booke of the lawe was vnknowen vntounto the Priestes, vntill it was found by occasion of taking out of mony out of the temple, by Hilchiah the priest. So that from the beginning of the reigne of Manasse, vntill the 18. yeare of the reigne of Iosias, which was almost 80. yeares, Idolatry openly, preuailed in the temple of God, the whole synagogue, that is, all in authority and countenance, embracing the same, except a fewe poore Prophetes, that were slaine for crying out against it. 2. King. 22. & 2. Chro. 34. And such was the state of the Church in the most corrupt times, continuing as then, but yet in persecution, aduersity, and beeing vnknowen vntounto the worlde, except now and then God stirred vp some witnesse to testifie his truth, which was slaine of the beast Apoc. 11. Now concerning the childish sophisme, that although it was not possible that the Church could erre, yet p. 45it is not proued, that it hath erred, what shold I speake? When the defender directly oppugneth that paradoxe which the Papistes holde: namely, that the Churche cannot erre. To conclude, while he walketh vnderunder a cloude of the Church sanctified, and assisted by the holy Ghost, defended by the presence of Christ, &c. He playeth bo peepe vnderunder a coverlet. For what so euer promises are made to the faithfull spouse of Christe, pertaine nothing at al to the Popish Church of Antichrist, which is departed from the faith, carrying the brandmarks of hypocrisie, in prohibition of marriage and meates, so euident, that all the water in the sea can not wash them out.

CAP. XI.

Obiections out of the News Testament moued and assoyled.Stapleton.

The first obiection is the abhomination of desolation standing in the holy place, that is the Church, Matth. 24. He asketh where the defender hath learned to expound this holy place of the Church? Forsooth where M. Stapleton learned, that it may be vnderstood of the temple at Ierusalem, where Pilate placed Caesars image, or of the Image of Adriane. Namely, in Hierome, vponupon this text Matth. 24. which vnderstandeth the abhomination of desolation to be Antichrist, of whom Saint Paule speaketh, whom he denieth not, but that he shal sit in the Church: his wordes are these. De hoc & Apostolus loquitur, quòd homo iniquitatis & aduersarius eleuandus sit contra omne quod dicitur Deus & colitur: ita ut audeat stare in templo Dei, & ostendere quòd ipse sit Deus: cuius aduentus secundum operationem satanae destruat eos, & ad Dei solitudinem redigat, qui se susceperint, Potest autem simpliciter aut de Anti christo accipi, aut de imagine Caesaris, &c. Of this abhomination of desolation the Apostle also speaketh, that the man of sinne, and the aduersary shalbe lifted vp against all that is called God, p. 46or worshipped: so that he dare stand in the temple of God, and shewe himselfe as God: whose comming, according to the working of Satan, may destroy them & bring them to solitarines frō God, which shal receiue him: and it may either be taken simply of Antichriste, or of the image of Caesar, &c.

Let him now reason with Hieronyme, howe the sacrifice should ceasse after the ende of 62. weekes? Although for my part, I thinke, the pollution of the temple, whiche was a token of the desolation imminent, was a figure of the corruption of the Church by AntiChriste.

The 2. obiection. S. Paul witnesseth that Antichrist should sit in the temple of God, that is in the Church. What of this? (saith he) will it followe that he hath sitten there these 900. yeares? As though the defender were to proue how long Antichrist should sit, and not rather that the visible and outwarde multitude of the Church should erre.

Like madnes, shal I say, or impudence, he sheweth, where he saith, the protestantes commonly name S. Gregorie to be that Antichrist. Which I am sure he neuer read nor heard any protestant affirme. But the Pope cānot be Antichrist (saith he) because Antichrist should then labour to extirpe the faith of Christe, for the Pope hath called people from infidelitie to Christianitie. That letteth not, but that he is Antichrist: for the Pope calleth none but vntounto the name of Christianitie, vnderunder colour of which, he exerciseth tyranny, otherwise he laboureth to extirpe the faith of Christ, and to preferre himself before Christ, whose redemption, he teacheth to take away onelyonly the guilt of sinne, whereas his pardon taketh away, both the paine and the guilt of sinne.

The thirde obiection is out of S. Peter, that in the Church should be many masters and teachers of lyes: But these (sayth he) shall not tarie 900. yeares, for their destruction sleepeth not. A wise shift, as though p. 47the Apostle gaue not a generall admonition, for the Church in all ages, euen in that wherein he liued himselfe.

The last is out of 1. Tim. 4. that in the latter dayes such should come, which shall giuegive eare to the doctrine of deuils, forbidding to marrie and eate suche meates as God hath created to be receiued with thanksgiuing. In this matter he professeth to be short, as he hath no lust to tarrie being in that, wherein his cauterized conscience is so galled. But he aunswereth briefly, it was fulfilled in the Manichees, what then? doth it followe that it is not fulfilled in the Papistes? Doth the spirite speak euidently of the Manichees, an obscure heresie, and not rather of the Apostasie of Antichrist, whose hypocrisie should be cloaked by fained chastity and fasting? No no, Master Stapleton, your conscience although marked with a whot iron, yet can not but inwardly confesse, that this prophesie perteyneth especially to Papistrie, the greatest heresie that euer was.

CAP. XII.

Other common obiections of protestantes, taken out of the law,Stapleton. discussed and assoyled.

The obiections are these: where was the outwarde face of the Church in the time of Noe,Fulke. in the time of the departing of the tenne tribes, in the dayes of Elias? He aunswereth out of Augustine De vnitate ecclesiae against the Donatistes, cap. 12. which made the same obiections, that as these examples of fewnesse of the Church are read in the Scriptures, so the Church to be dispersed ouer all the world, is read in the same Scriptures, and therfore it can not be restrained to the communion of Donatus in Affirica.

The like say we, (how of euer it pleaseth his malice to slaunder vsus) that the Church is and was these 1500. p. 48yeares dispersed ouer the whole worlde, and therefore can not be restrained to the faction or communion of the Pope in a parte of Europe.

Concerning the apostasie of the 10. tribes, he answereth, that the Cleargie, vide licet the Priests and Leuites, remained in sound religion, and many of the people, so God hath his Church alwayes, which we denie not. Yet in the dayes of Manasse, where can he shewe me any Cleargie of the Iewes that continued in sound religion? And yet I doubt not, but there were some particular persons, for GOD had his Churche among them euen then. But the outward face of the Church, was all turned into idolatrie and false worshipping of God. Where he saith; except the Church had remained in Europe these 900. yeares, protestantes should not hauehave had from whence to departe. I answere, protestantes are not departed out of the Church of Christ, but out of Babylon. And yet I acknowledge, that there were members of Christes Church dispersed, yea and Churches gathered also in the time of deepest ignorance, in moste regions of Europe, though not regarded, or condemned for heretikes, in Calabria, in France, in England, in Bohemia. Finally whereas he would seeme to repaire the Popes losse in Europe, with the recouery of large countries in the East, wise men may easily see, and fooles also may laugh at it, howe vaine a bragge it is, to boast of matters so farre of as none can beare witnesse of, but himselfe, and such as he is.

CAP. XIII.

That the true Church of Christ,Stapleton. which continueth for euer, is a visible and known Church, no priuie or secrete congregation.

p. 49His name is Thomas forsooth, and therefore he saith,Fulke. he will neuer beleeue, that there was any other Church, but the Church of Rome, except he may so see it, that he may point to it with his finger. But gentle Thomas, our Sauiour Christ saith, blessed are they that beleeue & see not. If the catholike Church of Christ might be seene at any time, it should be no article of our faith, which is an euidence of thinges that are not seene, Heb. 11. The members thereof, as seuerall congregations, are seene, sometimes of many of all sortes of men, sometimes of them onelyonly, that are true members of them, but Ierusalem which is aboue, and is the mother of all the faithful, is not seene, but with the eyes of faith. Therefore Thomas, if you wil neuer beleeue the Catholike Church, except you see it with your bodily eyes, you can neuer be any member thereof.

You alledge out of Esay 2. The hill of the house of the Lord shal be prepared in the toppe of all hilles, &c. This is fulfilled in the calling of the Gentiles, which hauehave not ceased to walke in the light of our God▪ since they were first called, though not alwayes in like numbers, not always in fauour with the powers of the worlde, nor alwayes in sight of the blinde worldlinges. And Christ is the light of the Gentiles,Es. 49.Isa 49 vntounto the vttermost partes of the earth, therefore not vntounto one part of Europe only, as you Popish Donatistes do affirme. And the Apostles were the light of the worlde to carrie the light of saluation vntounto the furthermost partes of the earth.Matth. 5. Es. 61.Matt 5Isa 61 And their seede shalbe knowen among the Gentiles, and their buddes among the people. All that see them shall know them, that they are the seede which the Lord hath blessed. The Church of the Gentiles, confesseth the seede of Abraham, which sometimes was obscure and knowen to fewe, to be the blessed seede, and reioyceth that by faith she is engraffed into the stocke of Abraham, to be partaker of the same blessing.

p. 50All this prooueth no light, sight, or knowledge of a Church to be pointed at with vnfaithfull Thomas his finger, but heauenly, spiritual, and to be discerned by faith.

Againe when Esay sayeth: God hath prepared his arme in the eyes of all nations, and all the endes of the earth shal see the saluation of our God, Es. 52.Isa 52he meaneth to the electe and chosen of all nations, to the predestinate people. Not onelyonly so sir Protestant: Why so syr Papist? The Prophet sayeth further, Quibus non est narratum, viderunt, & qui non audiuerunt contemplati sunt. Such as the Messias hath not beene preached vntounto, yet they hauehave seene. And such as hauehave not heard, hauehave yet beholden.

Ergo not the Electe onelyonly: What then syr Papiste, tagge and ragge, all the reprobate of al times: is this your interpretation? But Thomas? I pray you giuegive vsus leaue to beleeue the interpretation of S. Paule before you, who expoundeth it cleane contrary to you. Romanes 15. ver. 20. Yea I enforced my selfe to preach the Gospel, not where Christe was named, least I should hauehave built on an other mans foundation. But as it is written:Es. 52.Isa 52 To whome he was not spoken of, they shal see, and they that hearde not shall vnderstande. Loe Thomas, Saint Paule expoundeth this text of them which had seene Christe and knowen the Gospel, first, by his preaching, and not of such as the Messias hath not bene preached to. Therefore be no more vnfaithfull, but beleeue the Catholike Church, though it can not be seene. Yet will he not leaue the matter so, for Esay prophecyeth.

That the Lorde would be a perpetuall light and glory of his Church: That the sunne of the Churche shal not goe downe any more, nor the moone vade, because the Lord shal be her euerlasting light. Nations shal walk in their light, and kings in the brightnesse p. 51of her arising.

Verily Thomas, though our bodily eyes can not see this, yet doe wee moste constantly beleeue, that it is fulfilled in the Churche as it was promised.

But that the externall brightnesse of the Church is☜ not promised to bee in all ages alike, wee may clearely see by this, that he saith: Kinges shal walke in the brightnesse of thy rising vppe. For euerye age of the Churche hath not had kinges to walke in the brightnesse of her light.

Let Thomas which will not beleeue the continuance of our Churche, except it be so shewed that hee may point at it with his finger: Let him I say point out with his finger, what Kinges in eueryevery age for the space of the first three hundreth yeares, did walke in the brightnesse of the Churches arising. It will not serue him to name Algarus of Edessa, or Lucius of Britaine. But he must shewe a continuall succession of Kinges for all that time, or if he can not, let him confesse, that the externall glorie and brightnesse of the Church, is not in all ages to be seene, as the spirituall magnificence and light thereof is euerlasting.

His nexte reason is, of the continuance of Pastours and teachers in the Churche, which he imagineth to hauehave fayled in our Church, for nine hundreth yeares, but he is altogether deceiued. For when the state of the Romishe Churche was growen to be such a confuse Babylon, that it was necessary for GODS people to goe out of it. Apoc. Chap. 18. verse 4. Which came not to the full ripenesse of iniquitie, vntill a thousande yeares after Christe, GOD sent Pastours and teachers to his Churche so departed out of Babylon, in these partes of Europe, which continued by succession, euen vntill GOD restored his Gospell into open light of the worlde againe.

p. 52Beside that a great number of Easterne Churches, hauehave continued euen from the Apostles time vntounto this day, though not in soundnesse of all opinions, yet in open profession of Christianitie, among whome doubtlesse, some reteyned the foundation alwayes, which were neuer obedient to the see of Rome, neither partakers of a greate nomber of her horrible heresies, so that if it were graunted, that the Churche must alwayes be visible, yet the Papistes are neuer the neare, to proue their faction to be the Church, because the Greeke Church, for outward shewe of a Churche, hath bene alwayes as notorious in the East, as the Latine Church in the West.

Finally, where Augustine sayeth (although vponupon a text wrongly interpreted) that the Churche is placed in the sunne, that is, a manifest place of the worlde, not in a corner, like the conuenticles of heretikes. He meaneth not, that the Church is alwayes seene of all men, but that it seeketh no corners or couerture of darkenesse, as heretikes doe, to shrowd their falshoode in: although in the time of persecution it be driuen into streightes, and is content to be hidden from the aduersaries thereof, except in some cases, where the glorie of CHRISTE requireth an open confession.

The same Augustine, would hauehave the Churche to be known onelyonly by the Scriptures De vnitate Ecclesiae. Cap. 16. Sed utrum ipst Ecclesiam teneant, non nisi divinarum scripturarrum Canonicis libris ostendunt. But whether they holde the Church, let them shewe by none otherwayes, but by the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scriptures. If the Papistes were able to proue their doctrine by the scriptures, they would not labour so muche for the title of the Church, which of necessitie would followe them if they taught nothing but that, and all that, which the holy Scriptures doe teache.

p. 53CAP. XIIII.

Three reasons why the Church of Christ ought of necessitie alwayes to be a cleare,Stapleton. euident, visible, and knowen Church. In the seconde of which reasons a sensible disputation is made to trie whether our countrie among other might possiblie hauehave attayned to the right Faith without the helpe of a knowne Church, in all this pretensed time of Papistrie.

The first reason is, that except the Church and true pastors thereof might be openly knowne,Fulke. the infidell seeking for Christianitie shall come from paganisme to heresie &c. the grace and gift of Christ shoulde bee vnprofitable as a riche treasure fast locked vp &c. which were inconuenient in many respects &c. therefore the Church must be openly knowne and euident &c. I aunswere: this reason sauoreth of Pelagianisme, which is enimie to the grace of God, presupposing that Infidels of their owne good motion, without the grace of God, may seeke Christianitie. But if wee remember what our Sauiour Christ saith: No man commeth vntounto me, except my father drawe him: Ioan. 6. ver. 44. Wee must acknowledge, that as it is the onelyonly grace of God, that moueth in infidels a desire to seeke Christ, so the same grace, and no outward appearance, to be iudged by carnall reason, shall directe them, whom he hath chosen to eternall life, among so many sectes in the worlde, to finde, see, and acknowledge the onelyonly true Church, and piller of trueth, out of which there is no saluation. Wherefore this reason hath no grounde, but vppon a supposition of Pelagianisme, that GOD hath onelyonly reuealed his trueth vntounto men of the worlde, and lefte men to their owne reason to find it out by external notes, such as Infidels not lightened by Gods grace, by the light of naturall reason may descerne.

The seconde reason is, that it hath pleased God, that because p. 54The seconde reason is, that it hath pleased God, that because faith leaneth vponupon authoritie, and authoritie is strong in a multitude, although in the primitiue Church by miracles & euident giftes of the holy ghost, the authoritie of a fewe drewe whole countryes to the faith, yet miracles ceasing, to keepe the Church alwayes in a knowen multitude, whose authoritie might drawe the simple, persuade the learned, and keepe out the heretikes. If this carnal reason were good, there were smal or no vse of the scriptures at all. The authoritie of the Church, and that alwayes knowne, might suffice for all matters. But Augustine (saith hee) in his booke de vxilitate credendi, ad Honoratum. Cap. 14. vseth this reason to bring Honoratus from the Manichees to the Catholikes, out of whome he citeth a long discourse to this effect: That as the common multitude and fame moueth a man to beleeue, that there was such a one as Christ, and that his writings and scriptures are to be credited, so of the head rulers of that multitude, and not of any priuie and newe sect, such as the Manichees was, he must learne the vnderstanding of this booke and scriptures. This he taketh vppon him to exemplifie, by the state of our countrey, at the firste conuersion thereof by Augustine. Although this carnal reason might hauehave some shew with Honoratꝰ, a straunger from the Church, and one not lightened with the spirite of God: yet howe vaine it is, being applyed to the Papistes, you may easily see by this, that since the Church of Rome hath been the Church of Antichrist, as great a multitude, which might and hath moued many infidels to receuie the profession of Christianitie, hath beene seperated from it, as hath cleaued to it. Put the case then of an infidell in the East, which moued by the fame and consent of many nations, hath thought well of Christ, hath giuen credite to the Scriptures: to what head rulers shoulde be resort for instruction in the Scriptures? to the rulers of that multitude, by which he was first moued to beleeue? then shoulde he neuer become a Papist: p. 55For all the Patriarches of the East Church hauehave been and are stil at vtter defyance with the Pope of Rome. You see therefore by plaine demonstration, that this reason holdeth no further then Augustines authoritie extendeth: who in other places appealeth onelyonly to the Scriptures, and euen against the Manichees confesseth, that the playne demonstration of the trueth (which is to be founde in the holye Scriptures) is to be preferred before the consent of nations, authoritie of miracles, succession of Bishops, vniuersalitie, consent, name of the Catholike Church, and whatsoeuer can be taught beside, Contra Epist. Manich. quam vocant fundamenti Cap. 4.

The thirde reason, why the Church must alwayes be a known multitude, is for keeping out of wolues and heretikes, which must be, y^t they which are tryed, may be made manifest, which cannot bee in a secrete congregation. Yes M. Stapleton, very well. The Church was neuer so secrete, but it was knowne to the members of it, which might vse the authoritie thereof, for trying, auoyding, and excommunicating of heretikes, according to the holye scriptures. But euermore you do wilfully deceiue your selfe, when you affirme that there was no Christians knowen in the worlde by the space of 900. yeares but Papistes. You cannot denye, but Brytannie, Scotlande, & Irelande had Christians at and since the comming of Augustine, which were no Papistes, as by the history of Beda is manifest. What should I here name so many nations of Europe, Asia, and Africa? which yet to this day continue in profession of Christianitie, & neuer were subiect to the tyrannye of the Romishe byshop, and from whome the Romish byshop, with his sect of Papistes, hath clearely departed many hundreth yeares agoe. Wherefore, according to Augustines sentence: the Catholike church is not a particuler sect in Europe, but an vniuersall gathering of y^e dispersed ouer all the world,Cont. Faust. li. 13. Ca. 13. where God hath his elect p. 56in all places. Or if you vnderstande the Church for a visible multitude professing Christ, there is no reason why the churches of the East, so many, so large, so ancient, should be excluded, and the multitude of Papists holding of one citie in Italy only, to be receiued.

CAP. XV.

A number of shamelesse shiftes and seely surmises,Stapleton. which Protestants hauehave inuented to establish their variable doctrine, and to confounde the authoritie of the Church.

In deede a number of these which he rehearseth as shamelesse shiftes, are shamelesse lies and impudent slaunders, deuised by the diuell, to bring the trueth in disdaine: but yet so openly proued to be false,Fulke. that they neede no confutation. First he sayeth, that Luther condemned all councels and fathers, yea, al learning of Philosophy and humanitie, so that bookes were burned, and common schooles ceased for certein yeares in Germany, with other like monstrous lyes, alledging for his author that beastly Apostata Staphylus. This slaunder deserueth no aunswere, being raysed by one shamelesse lyer against an hundreth thousand witnesses.

The seconde shift is, that Luther did afterwarde receiue Philosophy, and bookes of humanitie, yea & diuines of▪ 500. or 600. yeares, and some Councels also, with this perilous condition, so farre as they repugned not to holy Scripture. This seemeth an vnreasonable condition to Stapleton, who belike would hauehave all gentylitie, and many heresies absolutely receyed.

The thirde: The fathers should not be admitted, when they taught any thing beside the expresse scripture. As worshipping of Images, praying to Saints, &c. which they had by tradition. If such things came from the Apostles, why were they not written by p. 57them, as well as such fathers of later time? yea, why did the Apostles write that which is contrary to such traditions?

The fourth: The first 600. yeares they did admit, because they knewe there was litle in them against them cleare & open, because fewe bookes were writen in that time, and many lost that were written. And yet there remaine more writen in that time then a man can well reade ouer in seuen yeares. Agayne cities being stuffed with heathen, Iewes, and heretikes, eueryevery mystery was not opened in pulpit, nor committed to writing. These belike were greater mysteries then the Apostles and Euangelistes hauehave committed to writing. But I marueile howe they were taught, if neither in pulpit nor in writing, belike in secrete confession, but our Sauiour Christe woulde hauehave his mysteries preached in the house toppes. Last of all, for that many controuersies nowe in hand were neuer heard of in those dayes. Therefore M. Iewell made his challenge of the first 600. yeres, which Stapleton thinketh he was not able to abyde by, and that M. Nowel suspected no lesse, because he accounted it a very large scope. But howe he hath abyden by it, is sufficiently proued to the glory of the trueth, and the confusion of Papistrie.

The fifth: They reiect the latter 900. yeares, because Paynims yelding to the faith, and heretikes to the Church, the mysteries of our faith were more openly published in Pulpits & writings. It appeareth, and that in recordes of the latter 900. yeares, that many old heretiks still remained in the cities, beside the Iewes remaining vntil this day, of which he made the fathers of the first 600 years so much afraide, for vttering the mysteries, a… of Paynims and heretikes.

The sixt: Some holde, that all the Church might erre for a time. None euer helde that all the Church might erre so farre, as that they fell away from Christ.

The seuenth: Other said, there was a Church all this 900 yeares, but oppressed by the miscreants, being priuie and vnknowen. p. 58This he sayth is vaine & blasphemous, being against holy Scripture and good reason, as he hath proued. What he hath proued, you hauehave seene, and howe the Scripture must be fulfilled, which prophecyeth of the comming of Antichrist, and the apostasie of men from the faith: which cannot be, if the Church should alwayes florish in multitude & externall appearing of visible glory.

The eyght: That Protestants bookes hauehave beene lost.

The ninth: Bookes of holy fathers hauehave beene corrupted.

The tenth: False writings hauehave beene deuised and fathered vponupon the first Popes of Rome. All these he compteth to be but suspitions & surmises, which are yet so manifest truthes, that euen Thomas the vnbeleeuing Apostle without the iudgement of his senses, might feale them with both his hands, and be satisfyed, although Thomas the Apostata from God, and traytour to his Prince & countrey will neither see nor handle them. But all these surmises he will ouerthrow with supposing one case. If a man hauehave continued in possession, and coulde bring recordes of his right from William the Conquerour, and all his neighbours to say for his quiet possession, without checke or nay, as the Papistes can deduct the possession of their religiō from 800. yeares, &c. were it a good plee against such a man to say: his recordes are false, his euidences forged, his possession iniurious, &c. without bringing in any affirmatiue proofes, recordes, euidence, or witnesse, &c. I answere, it were no good plee. But firste I denye, that you Papistes can bring such recordes, witnesse, and possession of 900. yeares. And secondly, I affirme that wee can bring good recordes, euidences, and witnesse to the contrary. Wherefore this case helpeth you nothing at all, as it is false that the religion nowe called Papistry hath beene professed these 900. yeares, which I hauehave proued by more then 40. differences, gathered out of the historie of Bede, and other monuments of antiquitie.

p. 59CAP. XVI.

A note of countries and prouinces brought to the faith of Christ from Paganisme,Stapleton. within the compasse of those latter 900 yeares.

He beginneth with the conuersion of the English Saxons and Britanie,Fulke. and so proceedeth to the conuersion of diuers small nations in Germanie, and other partes: last of all, he commeth to the conuersion of many thousands in the Isle of Goa, testified by letters of the Iesuites, al which he maketh to be conuerted into one faith and religion of Papistrie. But that is false, for I hauehave proued by many differences, that although the first beginning of these 900. yeares was corrupt in many thinges, yet was it not so corrupt as Papistrie, nor agreeing with Papistes in many of their chiefe heresies for 300. or 400. yeares after. Now touching such as hauehave bene conuerted to plaine Poperie since y^t time, or by y^e Iesuites in this time, if their monstrous reports be credible, it proueth not y^t they are of an Apostolike spirit. The Scribes and Pharisees were zealous to make Proselites to Iudaisme. The great and mightie nations of the Gothes, Vandales, Hunnes, &c. that ouerranne the greatest part of the Romaine Empire, were conuerted from Gentilitie by the Arrians, whose heresie along time they helde, as all histories doe record. The Nestorians conuerted great nations that yet continued in their heresie. Photius the heretike conuerted the Bulgarians. Finally, the Greeke Church hath conuerted as many nations vntounto their profession of Christianitie, as the Romaines hauehave done to their Papistrie: wherefore this argument of conuersion of nations doeth no more proue Papistrie to be true Christianitie, then it doth iustifie Iudaisme, Arrianisme, Nestorianisme, Grecisme, which the Papistes count to be an heresie as well as the other.

p. 60CAP. XVII.

Whether at any time the religion of Protestants hauehave conuerted any infidels to the faith.Stapleton.

The religion which we holde, whome he calleth Protestantes,Fulke being the same which was deliuered by Christ him selfe and his Apostles, hath conuerted all nations of the world that euer were cōuerted, from infidelitie to y^e true faith and religion of Christ. Wherefore it is a folish fantasie, that he requireth vsus to shew one countrie, citie, or man, conuerted within these 900. yeres. If Protestants could brag as well as the Iesuites, they might boast of many thousands conuerted by them in the new found lands of Gallia Antarctica, and India, beside many Iewes that are knowne to be turned to the Christian faith in this part of the world. If in the time of persecution, when they had much ado to saue their owne faith from deceiuing, and their liues from crueltie, they had no leasure to trauell into Heathen countries, to seeke the conuersion of infidels, no wise man will maruell. The slaunderous reportes of Villegagnon and the Iesuites are of as good credite, as their persons are of honestie and soundnes of religion.

CAP. XVIII.

The argument of continuance of the knowne Church,Stapleton. is fortified out of the most auncient and learned Fathers.

The auncient and learned Fathers, neuer allowed any continuance of the Catholike Church and faith, but such as had their beginning at Christ & his Apostles, and not such as beganne fiue or sixe hundreth yeares after Christ,Fulke. as all the testimonies which he cyteth, do plainely proue vntounto vsus. First Augustine, Ep. 166. reproueth the Donatistes. For that they would not acknowledge p. 61the Church which Christ him selfe had planted, and which had continued euen vntill that time. But it pleaseth this man greatly, which Augustine writeth. Cont. Ep. Parm. lib. 3. cap. 5. That there is no securitie of vnitie, except the Church be declared out of the promises of God, which as it is saide, being set vponupon an hill can not be hid, and therefore it is necessarie that it be knowne to all parts of the earth. The knowne Church. that Augustine speaketh of, is not the peculiar Church of Rome, but the vniuersall Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world: which is in such sort knowne & seene, as the mountaine whereon it is builded, is knowen and seene. But that mountaine is Christ, spoken of in Daniel, which is not knowne or seene but by faith, no more is the vniuersall Church of Christ knowne or seene but by faith. And thus he writeth against the Donatistes, which challenged the societie of the iust to be only in Africa, whereon as also that the mountaine in y^e which y^e Church is set, is Christ, August. writeth in y^e same chapter. Qui ergo nō vult sedere in concilio vanitatis, non euanescat typho superbiae, quaerens conuenticula, iustorum totius orbis vnitate separata, quae non potest inuenire. Iusti autem sunt per vniuersam ciuitatem, quae abscondi non potest, quia supra montem constituta est. Montem illum dico Dani…lis, in qu… lapis ille praecisus sine manibus, creuit & impleuit vniuersam terram. Per totam igitur istam ciuitatem toto orbe diffusam, iusti gemunt & moerent, ob iniquitates quae sunt in medio eorum. He therefore that will not sit in the councel of vanitie, let him not vanish away in swelling of pride, seeking the conuenticles of the iust, separated from the vnitie of all the world, which he can not finde. Now the iust are throughout the whole citie, which can not be hid, bicause it is set vponupon an hill. I meane, that hill of Daniell, in which that stone being cut off without handes increased, and filled the whole earth. Therfore in al this citie dispersed ouer all the world, the iust doe grone and mourne, for the iniquities which are in the middest of them.

p. 62Thus Augustine being rightly vnderstoode, maketh altogether against the schismaticall Church of Rome, which is not set vponupon that mountaine which is inuisible to the eye of the flesh, but seeketh the vtter ruine of that citie which being builded on Christ, is known in all partes of the world by faith.

But Hieronyme saith much for the matter, Contra Luciferianos. I could drie vp all the streames of thy propositions, with the fame of the Church. And who douteth, but where the Church is acknowledgeth to be, the cleare doctrine thereof may stoppe the mouth of any heretike which acknowledgeth it for the Church? The same Hieronyme Ad Dam. mach. & Oceanum de error▪ Orig. cur post &c. writeth thus: Why after 400. yeares labourest thou to teach vsus which we knewe not before? Why doest thou bring foorth that which Peter and Paul would neuer teach? Euen vntill this day the Christian world was without thes doctrine, I wil hold that faith an olde man in which I was borne a childe. A worthie saying of Hierome, which may be rightly applied against the Papistes, which teach such doctrine, as neither Peter nor Paul would euer teach, nor the Christian world knewe for 600. yeares after Christe, yea for almost a thousand yeares after Christ in many pointes. The like force is in the saying of Gregorie Nazianzen, against the Arrian, Ep. 2. ad Clidon. Si ante hos triginti &c. If our faith beganne but 30. yeares agoe, when there are almost 400. yeares since Christe was shewed, and the Gospell hath for so long space bene in vaine, our faith also hath bene in vaine: and they which hauehave giuen witnesse thereto, hauehave testifid in vaine, so many and so worthie prelates in vaine hauehave gouerned the people. This saying is verified of Christian faith, which had cōtinued in the world sixe, seuen, or eight hundreth yeares, before Papistrie in many pointes began, Christ hath bene preached, and yet Papistrie neuer heard of, yea what so euer doctrine had a latter beginning then Christ and his Apostles, this father p. 63condemneth of error. Euen as the same man writeth in the other place by M. Stapl. cited, De Theod. li. 2. Vt haec praesidia omittam &c. To omit these helpes, yet it should satisfie vsus, that none of those which hauehave bene inspired with the spirite of God, hath hitherto either pronounced this sentence, or allowed it being vttered by any other, and the doctrine of our church doth abhor it. He braggeth not vponupon the present opinion of y^e Church, but as the same hath alwayes bene allowed of al the Apostles and their successors, and y^e contrarie neuer receiued. Therfore wheras Theodoret reporteth y^t that confession of the faith was admitted (in y^e Councel of Nice) which preuailed, & was published throughout y^e world, he meaneth not y^t the Fathers folowed either y^e multitude, or the cōmon opinion of men, which were reputed for the Church in that time, but bicause y^e same confession had alwaies euen from the beginning, bene receiued and continued in y^e Church, as consonant & agreeable to y^e word of God, by which the Church must be tried to be y^e true Church, & wheras articles of faith are not proued true, bicause they be helde by thē y^• are commonly taken to be of y^e Church. To conclude: The prescription of Tertullian against Hermogenes we do willingly admit, & offer to be tried therby: y^t whether of our religion or theirs is y^e more auncient, y^t vndoubtedly must be truth. But thē y^e prescriptiō of 900. yeres wherof Stapl. so often & so much doth cackle, will not serue y^e Papists, as they cannot prescribe scarse halfe so long, for many of their opinions. For except we be able to proue our religion, as auncient as the time of Christ and his Apostles, we refuse not to be accounted heretikes. If we teach nothing but that we can iustifie, by manifest demonstration out of the holy Scriptures, y^• same also in the most principall points, being confirmed with the testimonie of the auncient fathers of the primitiue Church, the Papistes which accuse vsus of heresie, shall be found not onelyonly to be heretikes, but blasphemers of God, and slaunderers of his Saints.

p. 64CAP. XIX.

It is proued by three reasons or arguments deducted out of holy Scripture,Stapleton. that all the time of Papistrie can be no schisme on heresie, and therefore was true Christianitie.

The first reason is this. No heresie or schisme is vniuersall.Fulke. The faith of England these 900. yeares was vniuersall, ergo, it was no schisme or heresie. The minor which is false, he would proue by this reason. The faith of England was the faith of France, Spaine, Italie, Germanie, and of all other Christian countries, therefore it was vniuersall. This antecedent is false, for beside y^t in England, Fraunce, Spaine, Italie, &c. since the Church of Rome ceased to be the Church of Christ, there were alwayes true Christians, which yelded not to Papistrie: as many regions as he hath named of the East countrie, helde not the faith which was then openly receiued in England, in many principall articles, & namely in that which they make to be y^e chiefe of all, y^e article of the Popes supremacie and subiection to the Church of Rome: therfore al Christened coūtries were not of y^e same faith of Papistrie these 900. yeres. He laboreth like a wise man to proue y^t no sect is vniuersal: but that Poperie was vniuersall, it is sufficient for Papistes to say, bicause they are neuer able to proue it.

The second reason is, that no heresie is of long continuance to preuaile ouer true beleeuers, to oppresse the trueth, &c. Papistrie hath continued these 900. yeares, therefore Papistrie is no heresie. Although the minor be not simply true, yet y^e maior is vtterly false. But he would proue the maior out of S. Paul, 2. Tim. 3. saying of such as should withstand the trueth, like Iannes and Iambres, that they should not further preuaile, for their foolishnesse shall be made knowne to all men, euen as theirs was. Admit that this were spoken of those which should forbid marriage and p. 65meates which he would hauehave to be the Manichees, 1. Tim. 4. as it is spoken of hypocrites, which shall be in the Church to the end of the world, yet here is no shortnesse of time prescribed for the continuance of their errour, for he saide before, 2. Tim. 2. vers. 16. That they shall increase vntounto more vngodlinesse, and their word shall fret as a canker. He meaneth therefore, that they shall not long continue vnknowne, not to all men, but to all faithfull and godly men, as the follie of Iannes and Iambres was not made manifest to all the Egyptians, but vntounto the Israelites. Likewise, whereas Peter saith, 2 Peter 2. That the destruction of false Prophetes sleepeth not, he meaneth not, but that they may hauehave by succession a long continuance in the world, for he him selfe admonisheth vsus, that we may not count the Lordes delaying of iudgement to be slacknesse, as Stapleton doth, if it should be deferred 900. yeares: for one day with the Lord is as a thousand yeares, and a thousand yeares as one day. Heretikes therfore shal hauehave a quicke iudgement, & heresie shall shortly hauehave an end: for that neither of both shal cōtinue alway vncondemned. But that his maior proposition is vtterly false, which is: No heresie is of long continuance; I shewe by these instances. The heresie of them that ioyned Circumcision with the Gospell, is more then 1500. yeares olde, and yet it continueth in Affrica among Aethiopians, as witnesseth Munster and other writers of Geographie, as also the heresie of the Nestorians, which is 1200. yeares olde, and yet continueth among the Georgians. Finally, so auncient as the full tyrannie of the Pope is, so auncient is the departure of the Greeke and Easterne Churches from him, which they count to be a schisme and heresie.

The third reason: No heresie can continue and ouergrowe the true Church, Papistrie hath continued, Ergo: Papistrie is no heresie. The minor of this syllogisme is false, for Papistrie hath not continued from the time of Christe, but hath had her beginning long p. 66since, and was not growne to a ripenesse of all her heresies in more then a thousand yeares after Christ▪ as I hauehave shewed in the table of differences. Therefore what so euer he saith to proue the maior, is to no purpose, when the minor is manifestly false.

CAP. XX.

The third reason of the former chapter,Stapleton. is fortified out of the aunicient and learned Fathers.

Nowe he taketh in hand a goodly piece of fortification,Fulke. and like a worthie surueior of the Popes buildings, he bestoweth great cost out of Hilarius, Chrysostome, and Clemens Alexandrinus, for defence of such a point, as none of his aduersaries would euer offer to assaile. Nameley, the continuance of the Church, and true religion, which can not be ouercome, not kept downe by any tyrannie or heresie, but the more it is persecuted and oppressed, the more it will flourish and increase. And for this cause the true Church and faith of Christ, although it hauehave bene long troden downe and afflicted by the tyrannie of Antichrist, euen to such time as God had appointed, that Antichrist shuld rage in the world, for the sinnes thereof, and especially for the contempt of the trueth, 2. Thess. 2. yet hath it in the end preuailed, encreased, and flourished, and by no craft or crueltie of Antichrist, could any longer be suppressed or kept vnderunder. Let not Papistes therefore bragge, that they hauehave preuailed so long, but let them nowe behold their ouerthrow, by the increase of Gods Church, and looke for their finall destruction, at the glorious appearing of our Sauiour Christ. We doubt not therefore, but determine with Augustine De vtilitate credendi, to rest in y^e bosome of that Church, which from the seate of the Apostle, by consent of mankind, hath continued by succession of Bishops, and hath obtained the height of authoritie, all heretikes barking p. 67about it, which partly by the iudgement of the people partly by the grauitie of Councels, partly by the maiestie of miracles hauehave bene condemned. But we vtterly denie the Popish Church to be this Church, which hath had no continuance of succession from the Apostles seate, in faith and doctrine, though it claime neuer so much the succession of persons and places: with the Donatistes, Symon Magus, Martion, Eunomius, and other heretikes, we hauehave nothing to doe. If trueth in Aerius and Vigilantius was condemned for errour, not by the scriptures, but by the tradition of men, such condemnation can be no preiudice to them or their opinion, when being called againe into iudgement, they are found by sentence of Gods word, & the iudgement of the more ancient Fathers, to hauehave ben wrongfully condemned. To conclude, Papistrie hath not preuailed against the church of God, which hauing sought by all meanes so long time to roote her out of the earth, yet was neuer able to bring to passe her wicked deuice, but that the Church of Christ, and the true religion thereof, hath at last, in the sight of al men, gotten the vpper hand, in despight of the Pope and Papistrie, and all Papistes.