A Retentive to Stay Good Christians, Title page · Motive 9 – Motive 10-11
The 9. motiue is the 29 demaund.
Traditions most certaine. The Apostles were of our religion. Bristow.S. Augustine, S. Chrysostome, S. Hierome, S. Cypriane. fasting daies, lent, masse for the dead prayer for the dead confirmed by the Apostles traditions, water mingling mith the wine in the chalice. The Masse made by S. Paule. S. Paule of our religiō.
The true Church (sayth Bristow) hath alwayes had traditions Fulke.beside the Scripture, and what company soeuer was faine to crye for only Scriptures, & to deny most certeyne traditions of the Apostles, their doctrine was heresie and they heretikes. To proue that the church had alwayes traditions beside Scripture, he bringeth in the sayings of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. 2. Thess. 3. before the Scripture was all written, when it was necessary for the Church to hauehave much of the doctrine deliuered onelyonly by preaching, yet had they no doctrine of faith, but such as was cōfirmed by scriptures of the olde testament, as is manifest 2. Pet. …, But for the certaintye of popishe traditions, what proofe hath he? First Basil de sp. sancto cap. 27. sayth Dogmata &c. Matters of doctrine which are kept and preached in the church, we hauehave partly by doctrine committed to writing, partly by tradition of the Apostles, which are of like force vntounto godlines &c. But the same Basil writeth contrary to him selfe and agreeable to the truth, foreign. Whatsoeuer is beside the holy Scripture, in that it is not of faith, is sinne. And foreign. he requireth euen newe planted Christians to be instructed in the holy Scriptures, both for their full perswasiō in godlines, & also foreign. that they be not acquainted with mens traditions. Furthermore (sayth Bristow) Augustine, Epiphanius & the Protestants them selues, condemne Heluidius for an heretike, for denying the perpetuall virginitie of Marye the mother of Christ, contrary to the Churches tradition. Nay rather for troubling ye church with contention about that, in which he hath no groūd out of the Scriptures. Now let vsus see how they are proued to be heretikes, that refuse traditions of the Apostles, & are fayne to cry for onelyonly Scriptures. First that Maximinus the Arrian did so, ergo whosoeuer doth so is an heretike, according to Bristowes logike. And yet he belyeth Maximinus, for he refused not traditions of the Apostles, but such wordes as were beside the Scripture, meaning Homousion & such like termes, which were thē newly vsed, but yet conteyned no newe doctrine, but euen that which alwayes was approued according to the Scriptures. The same thing did the decree of the heretical Emperour Constantius forbid, & not traditions of the Apostles, of which was no controuersie, betwene the true Christians & the Arrians. But that the Scriptures onelyonly are of sufficient authoritie to confute heresies, Augustine declareth euen against the same Maximinus lib. 3. cap. 14. Sed nun… nec ego Niccnum &c. But now must not I bring forth the councel of Nice, nor thou the coū cel of Ariminum, to make any preiudice, but by the authoritie of Scriptures not being proper to ether, but cō mon witnesses to vsus both, let matter contend with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason. Likewise he and his fellow Bishops sayd vntounto the Donatists in the conference of Carthage. Si tantummodo id qu. crerctur qu… vel rbi esset Ecclesia, nihil se acturos publicis gestis, sed scripturarum diuinarum tantummodo testimonijs. If this onelyonly were the question, which or where the Church were, that they woulde pleade nothing at all by publike actes of men, but only by the testimonies of the holy Scriptures. Yet sayth Bristow, the Apostles were of our religion, because Chrysostom sayth Ad pop. Antioch. that it was decreed by the Apostles, that in the dreadfull mysteries a remē brance should be made of the dead. This sayth Bristow, was masse for the dead. How prayers for the dead came in & how at lēgth sacrifice of the masse was applied vntounto the dead, I hauehave shewed sufficiently against Allen lib. 2. ca. 5. If we should admit all thinges to be ordeyned of the Apostles, which some of the olde writers doe ascribe to their traditions, wee should receiue many thinges that euen the Papistes them selues doe not obserue. As that it is a wicked thing to fast on Sōday, or to pray kneling, that oblations are to be made for mens birth dayes, &c. which with diuerse other superstitions Tertullian fathereth vponupon the tradition of the Apostles, as wel as oblation for the dead. De coron. nul. hearing therefore such manifest vntruths are fathered vponupon the Apostles tradition by most aūcient writers, what certainty can we hauehave of their tradition, without their owne writing. Againe S. Hierom saith it was a tradition of the Apostles, to fast 40 daies in the yeare. If this be true, then is the popish story false, that maketh Telesphorus Bishop of Rome author of that lenten fast. Eusebius sheweth the great diuersitie of fasting before Easter li. 5, cap. 26. saying that some fasted but 1 day, some 2 daies, some more, some 40 howres of day & night, this diuersitie proueth … Hierom vntruly ascribeth yt tradition to the Apostles, which should hauehave bene kept vniformely, if it had any institution of the Apostles. Cyprian sayth it was our Lordes tradition, that the wine in the communion should be mingled wt water. But the Scripture saith not so, S. Paule wc deliuered that wc he receiued of Christ, saith not so. And yet Cypriā cō tēdeth principally for the vse of wine in the cup against the watry heretikes that vsed onelyonly water. It is a cōmon thinge with the auncient writers, to defend eueryevery ceremony mhich was vsed in their time, by tradition of the Apostles. But the chiefe matter is the masse, which sayth Bristow S. Paule one of our religion made. I maruell whether Bristow writeth this for fooles to beleue, or for wise men to laughe at. When they them selues make Gregory or Scholasticus, or I can not tell whom, auctor of the canon, and when they write howe eueryevery peece was added by what Pope, what impudence is it to say, that S. Paule made the Masse, and to call Augustine to witnesse that which he good man, did neuer thinke of, and much lesse write. Whose wordes Bristow hath mangled and falsified. for thus he citeth them Ep. 118. cap 6. Totum illum agendi ordinem, quem uniuersum per orbem seruat Ecclesia, ab ipso ordinatum esse. That by him was ordeyned this order of doing, which through the whole world the Church doth keepe in doing of Masse. The wordes of Augustine speaking of receiuing the communion, fasting, or before all other meates, are these, vponupon the wordes of S. Paule. Caetera cum venero ordinabo. Vnde intelligi datur, quia multum erat vt in epistola totum illum agendi ordinem insinuaret, quem universa per orbem seruat Ecclesia, ab ipso ordinatum esse, quod nulla morum diuersitate variatur. Other thinges will I set in order when I come. Whereby it is giuen vsus to be vnderstood because it was much, that in an epistle he should set forth that whole order of doing, which the whole Church throughout the world doth obserue, that this thinge was ordeyned by him, which is varied by no diuersitie of maners, vnderstanding the custome of receyuing the communion fasting, which he sayd before was generally obserued in all places. But of ordeyning the masse there is no title You see now howe … Apostles & especially S. Paule is of Bristowes religion, beside Chrysostō, Hierom & Cyp…iā.
The 10 and 11 motiues are confusely conte…ned in the 34 demaund.
The Courches iudgement is alwayes infallible. VVhen by Bristow.Iewell the Church of God dyed. Donatistes and Luciferians aliue againe in Protestants. S. Augustine and S. Hierome were of our religion. Protestants in their owne conscience be against the Church which is euerlasting and visible. No scripture against the Catholiks but all for them. Christ to be loued for the authoritie of his Church, for which there be playner prophecyes then for Christ him selfe.
Although we should graunt the Churches iudgemēt Fulke.to be alwaies infallible, yet would we neuer graunt the popish churches authoritye which falleth so manifestly from the word of God, & thereby sheweth her self to be the malignant Church, & Synagogue of Satan. That the Church of Christ hath alwaies ben from ye beginning, & shal continue vntounto the end of the world, we all confesse and defende. Wherefore it is an impudent slaunder of Bristow, to saye that by Iewell the Church dyed within six hundreth yeares after Christ. And that the Donatistes and Luciferians are reuiued in Protestants. For we nether say, that the Church is perished out of all places, except Africa, as the Donatistes, nor that it is become a stewes with the Luciferians. But the Papistes are more like to the Donatistes, which say the Church is perished out of all partes of the world except Europe, and in steede of the Church they defende a stewes and sincke of all dolatrie, superstition & vngodlines. Therefore Augustine and Hierom be not of Bristowes religion, for condemning those heretikes to whome Bristow and his Papistes are more like then the Protestants.
Nether doe Protestants in their conscience thinke the Church of Christ to be against them, because Castalio an Anabaptist translateth Ecclesiae the Churche into reipublicae the common wealth, or because many vse the name of congregation, which is the true signification of this word Ecclesia, as no man will deny that is not past all shame. That the Churche is euerlasting and visible to them that hauehave suche eyes as the Churche is, that is spirituall, we neuer deny. But that it is visible to the world alwayes, that shall neuer be proued. That no Scripture is against the Catholikes we graunt, but that many Scriptures are against the Papists, it hath bene more then a thousand times proued. That the church geueth testimonie to Christ & that the prophecies of the churches euerlasting continuance are plaine & euident, It is no question betwene vsus. But that the synagoge of Romish Papists is the church of Christ, to whō such credit or reuerence is to be geuen, that I say, if Bristow woulde burst for anger, against the Protestantes, he shall neuer be able to proue.