A Retentive to Stay Good Christians, Title page · Motive 36 – Motive 37
The 36. motiue is the 46. demaund.
The state of our predecessors. Prayer for the deade, the ground of building Christian monuments. Vniuersities of heretikès Bristow.and Catholikes, Protestants be ashamed of their fathers.
The demaund serueth to be contrary to the motiue, Fulke.for in the motiue he confesseth, that we will not condemne our auncestors that hauehave dyed these many hundred yeares in popish ignorance, nor the auncient doctors which hauehave held some errors which the Papistes doe hold, but in the demaund he asketh, if all these are damned in hell, if not, then theirs is the true Church, & those errors are truth. I aunswer we deale not with condemnation of men, for lacke of two causes, which make a Iudge, the one austeritie, the other is knowledge. Concerning the first, it pertayneth onelyonly to Christ, to be the Iudge of the quicke and the deade, whose office we dare not vsurpe, otherwise then he hath commaunded vsus, to pronounce sentence out of his word: concerning the latter, we take not vponupon vsus to knowe ether the faith or repentance of them that dyed before our time, and therefore we commit their iudgement to God. But generally we are taught by the Scriptures, that such as holde the onelyonly foundation which is Iesus Christ, in a true faith, shall be saued although they build vponupon this foundation chaffe, straw, wood, &c. 1. Cor. 3. And therefore we doubt not but S. Augustine, Chrysostom, Hierom, Gregory, Bernard, & many thowsands, euen in the tyme of great blindnes, holding the same only foundation, may be saued, notwithstanding the chaffe and stubble of a few errors which the former sort did hold, or a number of errors and superstitions wherewith the later sort were defiled. As for Fraunces and Dominike such late leaders of the locustes, we rather thinke they are returned into the bottomlesse pit from whence they came, then that they be Saincts in heauen. But if we excuse the rest by ignorance, Bristow asketh why we condemne not Augustine, which was not ignoraunt of our doctrine, because he condemned it for most wicked heresie in Aerius, Iouinian and Vigilantius, who although they be our fathers, he sayth we are ashamed to blesse their memorie. First concerning Iouinian, although he helde an heresie, in not preferring virginitie before mariage in some respect, yet hauehave we nothing to doe with him, for we hold not that opinion, which if we did yet were it no damnable heresy. Touching AErius he is cō demned of Augustine for an Arrian, his opiniō of prayer for the deade although it were not liked of Augustine, yet doth he in no place condemne it for most wicked heresie, as Bristow calleth it, but that he did allowe prayer for the deade, it was an error of ignoraunce, euen in S. Augustine, as that he thought the communion necessary for infants. Cont. duas ep. Pelag. lib. 2. cap. 4. As for Vigilantius I finde him not reckened ether by Epiphanius or Augustine for an heretike, or for one that erred in doctrine, although Hierom did write so bitterly against him, who likewise did write against Augustine and Ruffinus, yet are nether of both accompted for heretikes. And AErius as he helde some truth with vsus against prayer for the deade, so helde he also much popishe superstition and errour, for like the order of Carthusians, they of his sect admitted none to their felowship, but such as professed continence, & so renounced the world, that they possessed nothing in proper. As testifieth Epiphanius and Augustine. And Philaster affirmeth, that they absteyned also from cating of flesh. So that all thinges considered, Aerius mainteyned the doctrine of the Papistes, as much as of the Protestantes. That our preachers in pulpits, praise God for the founders of colledges and schooles, of learning, by name, what maketh this for allowance of their religion. God is to be praised for such benefits as he hath bestowed vponupon his church or any members thereof, euen by Turks and Heathen men. Wherfore this is a very slow motiue vntounto Popery. For whether the founders were good or euill men, and what intent soeuer they had, their benefits are now vsed to the glory of God, & therefore God for them and their benefits is greatly to be praised.
The 37. motiue hath neuer a demaund that I can aptly referre vntounto it.
The only knowne & vndoubted mother of Christs children Bristow.for a thousand yeares together. The church is euerlasting and visible.
The Popish church hath not only bene ye only known Fulke.church and vndoubted mother of Christes children for these thousand yeares. First because it is not of so many yeares continuaunce, the mysterie of iniquitie hauing not bene in highest degree of wickednesse before the councell of Constance, where notwithstanding the institution of Christ and the practise of the primitiue church, the communion of the Lordes bloud was taken from the people. Secondly the Popish church was neuer acknowledged by all the true children of Christes church, for their mother, which was a steppemother and a persecuter of them. Thirdly the Popish church was neuer ye only reputed church or mother of Christs children, of all them that professe Christianitie for the churches of the East, as great and as large as she was in the West, woulde neuer so accompt the Popish steppedame of Rome, but did separate them selues from her communion. Fourthly the Catholike church of Christes members dispersed ouer all the world, vnderunder the tyranny both of the Turke & the Pope, hauehave in all times protested, that ye Romish Apostolical synagoge, is the whore of Babylon and see of Antichrist.
The places of Mich. 4. and Esa 61. which he citeth to proue that the church must be alwayes visible, you shall finde aunswered with many other in mine ouerthrow of Stapletons fortres lib. 1. cap. 13. And wheras Bristow confesseth, that a mist may hide an hil that is neuer so high, from some wicked sighted men that are without it, but neuer from them that are within it, no merua…le if the spirituall church of Christ, being lifted vp aboue the top of all hills, not in worldly glory, but euen vntounto heauenly dignitie, hath long remained hid from them, that hauehave no spirituall eyes at all. But Bristow thinketh it straūge, that a mist should continue a thousand yeres together. Then I aske him what hath hindered the greatest parte of all the worlde, seduced by Mahometistrie and Gentilitie that for these thousand yeres they hauehave not seene the height of the Popish church. If he say not a mist about their church but a blindnesse in the others eyes to be the cause, the same I aunswere for the Catholike dispersed church of Christ, which the Papistes pretend that this thousand yeares they could not see. Although as I hauehave often sayd, Papistry is not halfe so olde in the greatest heresies and absurdities, which now she maynteyneth.