A Retentive to Stay Good Christians, Title page · Motive 1
Name of Catholikes. The verie name of Catholikes a certaine marke of right Catholikes. Iewel vnwars testifieth the Romane Bristow.religion to be Catholik. La…rence Hūfr…is Troian horse, his pseudocatholic…. Luthers consciens the Catholike Church to be against him. Ponta…us erred not whose historie Humfrey himselfe vnawars confirmeth. For Catholikes (saith he) were present as lookers on and earnest defenders. What then … but none such were moderators saue onelyonly lay Lordes and vnlearned heretikes. ergo.
The first motiue is the 6. demaunde. In whiche he woulde proue the verie name of Catholikes, to whō Fulke.soeuer it is giuen, to be a certain marke of right Catholikes, to be knowen as readely, easely, and certainely by that name, as such a citie is knowne by the name of London, and such a countrie by the name of England. If euer he learned any logike at Oxforde, he left it behinde him, or else lost it by the way when hee ranne ouer the sea. For if all thinges may bee knowen by the name whereby they are cōmonly called, nothing beareth a false name, all Idoles are true gods and saintes, al deade carcales be liuing men. Yea all heretikes which are commonly called Christians in respecte of Iewes & Turkes, be true Christians. But we must bring him a companie of men, commonly knowne by the name of Catholikes, which proued heretikes. Forsooth the Arrians among themselues were commonly called bv the name of Catholikes and so reputed and taken, when the true Catholikes were called homousians and heretikes, yea all heretikes among the Pagans were cō monly knowen by the name of Christians, whiche … thinke is as glorious a name as the name of Catholikes. Yet Augustine (saith …ee) maketh much of the name of Catholikes. Cont. …. Fund. c. 4. T…net me postremò, &c. Last of all the verie name of the Catholike Church doeth holde me, which not without cause, amongest so many heresies, this Church alone hath so obteined, that whereas all heretikes would hauehave themselues to be called Catholikes, yet to a straunger which asketh where men meete at the Catholike Church, none of the heretikes dare shewe either their minster or house. But let vsus see howe Augustine and Bristow agree. Augustine maketh this name, the last motiue, Bristowe the first. Augustine ioyneth it with many thinges, Bristowe maketh it alone to be a sufficient motiue. Augustine in the nexte sentence after confesseth the playne demonstration of the trueth, wheresoeuer it may be shewed, to bee preferred before al those motiues of Vniuersalitie, miracles, consente, succession and name of Catholikes, by which he saith that he might be helde in the Catholke Churche, although he grounded no argument vppon that wisedome, which the Maniches would not acknowledge to be in the catholike church, his words are these: Apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat, sola personat veritatiae pollicitatio qu…e quidens sutam manifesta monstratur, vt in dubium venire non possit, praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in Catholica ten…or. Among you Maniches (saith he) where there is none of these thinges whiche might allure and hold me, the onelyonly promisle of trueth doth sounde, whith trueth if it be shewed so manifeste that it cānot come in doubt, it is to be preferred before al those things, by which I am helde in the Catholike Church. This is Augustines iudgement of such simple motiues, which with the trueth, may helpe to confirme it, but are not worth a straw when they are alledged against the truth. Wherfore seing we make so plaine demonstration of the trueth out of Gods word, that no mā can doubt of it, but such as will followe the bare name of Catholike, contrarie to the Catholike doctrine of the scriptures: against all such vaine motiues, wee may be bolde to oppose the trueth it selfe. What a mockerie is this that hee saith? that an…eretike in Germanie, being asked where the Catholike Church is, will point to … popish Church. Admit this to be so, doth this proue the Massing Church to bee the Catholike Church? In France if you aske a Papist which is ye reformed Church? he will point you to the place where the congregation of true Christians vse to assemble. Doth the Papist therfore acknowledge, the Church of protestantes to bee in deede the reformed Churche? I… hee doe not, the name of Catholikes proueth no more on the one syde, thē the name of reformed Christians on the other side, that either is such in deede as of the vulgare and ignorant people they are called. But why are Protestantes & all here…ikes desirous to be called Catholikes? but that they which in deede hauehave the name, are also in deede euermore true Catholikes, and so the name alone sufficient to moue any man. Who euer heard such an asse b…aye? as though there were no difference, whether they hauehave the name rightfully or wrongfully, truely or falsely. In all the Easte Church, who are called Catholikes, but the Grecians? Which for many hundreth yeares, hauehave bene separated from the Communion of the Latines, and of them are compted for heretikes and Schimatikes. But Augustine de vera rel. Cap. 7. writeth more plainly for the name of Catholike. Tenenda est nobis Christiana &c. Wee muste holde the Christian religion, and the companie of that Church, which is Catholike and called Catholike, not onelyonly of her owne but also of her enemies. For will they nill they, the heretikes also and Schismatikes them selues, when they talke not with their own, but with strangers, they call the Catholike Church nothing but the Catholike Church. For they can not else bee vnderstanded, excepte they discerne her by that name, by which shee is called of the whole world. This therefore (quoth Bristow) is proued, they to be Catholikes that Catholikes are called When as Augustine saith, we must hold yt church which both is catholike, & is so called. Bristowe the Papist, is called by the name of a Cittie in England, theresore Bristowe the Papist is in deede a citie in England. This therefore is proued, that to bee Bristow that Bristow is called. But how proueth he, that they be called Catholikes? The worlde forsooth beareth them witnesse. For beside some ignorant fellowe in Germanie, that calleth them so, or rather not meaning to brable in the streat. yealdeth to that tearme, not because hee thinketh them to bee so, but because he knoweth the Papist which asketh for the Catholike Church, seeketh not the Catholike Church in deed, but the Popish Church falsely called Catholike: beside I say some tankarde bearer boye or gyrle, that hath m…de such a unswere to Bristowe as he trauelled in Germanie, he asketh when in printed bookes they bee called Catholikes, whether the reader knoweth not who is meaned? Yes verily, if the bookes bee written by papistes o… such as take neither part. But he would …now further why we m…ke name thē, & call them Cacolikes or Cartholikes. I suppose whosoeuer mocketh them, it is because they falsely …surpe that name, which they are not wo…thie to beare, and not because they bee such, and the name euill: yet againe he asketh why Luther i… Germanie did cause the Creede to be turned. I beleeue the Christian Church, and not, I beleeue the Catholike Church. Mine answere is, I beleeue that Bristowe belyeth Luther, for any such change of the creede, although he might well expoūd the true Catholike Church by the name of the true Christian Church. But Iewel confirmeth the name of Catholike to be theirs, or els what meaneth he to entitle his replie, Against the Romane religion which of late hath ben accompted Catholike. Alas poore Bristow, hast thou no better reason to proue the Popish Church to be Catholike, but that Iewel saith it hath bene accompted Catholike, and proueth that it hath ben falsely accompted so? Yes sir, not he only, but also Pope Humfrey in his Legend of sains Iewel, confesseth vsus to be Catholikes, where he saith that Pontacus erred, when he wrot that onelyonly lay men neither learned nor Catholikes, were moderators in the disputation at Westminster. Why Bristow, are you not ashamed to take the name of the lorde your god the Pope in vaine? And because Pontacus complaineth that catholikes were not moderators, doth Humfrey therefore acknowledge papistes to be Catholikes? yea forsooth, he doth so, and also cō firmeth the storie of Pontacus, when he saith, Catholikes were present, but in the next worde he expoundeth what catholikes, namely papistes. And som of thē were also moderators, at the least wise one, namely D. Heath then occupying the place of the Bishop of Yorke, therefore not onelyonly lay Lords, & vnlearned heretiks, as this lewd losel and vnlearned dogbolt & trayterous papist (I am bold with him, because he is so malepert with the learned & godly nobilitie of England) most slaunderously and maliciously affirmeth were only moderators of that disputation, but some of ye Popish faction were not only present but presidents of that action, beside all the rest of the popish prelates, which then were of the Parliament, for information whereof that conference was appointed. But Humfrey saith moreouer, that the chiefe cause of all euils, and as it were the Troian horse within the walles of the Church, hath beene hitherto a Catholike defection from the holy scripture, and especially your papistrie. Therefore (saith Bristow) hee acknowledgeth vsus to be Catholikes. In deed you be catholike (that is to say vniuersal reuolters frō ye holy scriptures) if that title please you, reioyce of it & spare not. You be Catholike heretiks, that is, heretikes not in one or two articles of religion, but in all in as much as you denie the office of Christe vponupon which is grounded all Christia…itie. The name of Catholike of it selfe is indifferent to good and euil, euen as the name of vniuersall is: therefore in our Creede we say not simplie, I beleeue the Catholike Church, but the holy Catholike Church. And therefore D Humfrey in calling you pseudocatholici, false Catholikes, sheweth what Catholikes he meaneth you to be, not members of the holy Catholike Church of godly Christiss, but pillers of the false and counterfeit Church of malignant herenkes, And whereas you say, you hauehave hearde Humfrey in his fond and vnlearned lectures at Oxford call them pseudocatholi…i, …home Faustus the Maniche did entwite for honouring the memorie of Martyrs, first you take vponupon you like the sowe to entwite Minerua as it is in ye latine prouerb, which might better be borne withall, in a man of such learning and arte as you shew, if you did not also slander & belie him, as the diuell doth all the saintes of God. For although I neuer heard any of his lecturs: yet I dare affirme, he neuer accompted Augustine and … godly Catholiks of his time for false Catholikes, although hee coulde not allowe of all that Augustine hath written and mainteyned. Wherefore it is cleare hee calleth not Augustine and the Catholikes of his time, but you Papistes of our time, false Catholikes: and shewed that to you did truly agree, that which Faustus did falsely charge ye true Catholikes with all, yt is, the turning of Idols into Martirs. For Faustus did slander, & not as you trāslateit, onelyonly entwite the true Catholikes for worshipping the Martirs, as … pagans worshipped their Idols. Calumniat… nobis Faustus &c. Faustus doth slander vsus (saith Augustine) Againe: Non tā me mouetut hic Calumniae respondeam &c. He doth not so much moue me that I should here answere his slander, as that I might shew, yt Faustus him selfe through desire of slandering, would swarue euen from the vanities of Maniche. The laste authorite for the name of Catholike in the 6. demaund is the words of a seruing man belike, that sayd to one M. Culpeper which died at Paris, lying on his deth bed, In any case renounce the Catholike faith, which whether it were said so, or howsoeuer it were ment, I thinke the partie that so spake, had as much wisedome as Bristow sheweth wit, in alledging his saying for proofe of the name of Catholikes, to be rightly giuen to them. The fantasticall trance of yt same gentleman which saw his good angel gloriously appearing to him, & assuring him that hee was in the right way, which his gostly father could not do, although it were not forged, yet can make no preiudice against the vndoubted word of God, which condemneth that way of papistrie, for the broad waye that leadeth to destruction. You hauehave heard what inuincible reasons Bristow imagineth yt he hath brought to proue the papistes to be right Catholikes. First because they call themselues so. Secondly because ignorant persons giuegive them that name. And last of all because some learned men call thē false Catholikes, counterfeit Catholikes, Catholike heretiks. But as the Iudge of the conference that was betwene the true Catholiks & the Donatistes said to the Donatistes, whē they challenged vntounto thē the name of Catholikes, so answere I to the papistes, illos quan…o magis se esse Catholicos dicerent, tanto magis iam causā ipsam remotis nugarum interposuionibus agere debere, in qua probare possent se potius esse Catholicos, that the more they vant themselues to be Catholiks, yt more they ought all delayes being remoued, now to go to the cause it selfe, in which they might proue that they are Catholikes in deede, rather then we.