A Retentive to Stay Good Christians, Title page · Motive 24 – Motive 25
The 24. motiue … the 45. demaund.
The Romaines neuer chaūged their religion. S. Bede of our Bristow.religion, the R…maine church his motiue, Protestāts be of many old heresies. The Apostles were of our religion. Prayer for the dead vsed alwayes.
If the Romaines had not chaūged their religion since Fulke.their faith was cōmended by the Apostle, there should be no controuersie betwene vsus & them. And if Bristow cā proue by the Apostles writing that he is of their religion, or that they were of the Popish religiō the strife is at an ende. How farre B…de was of your religion, I hauehave shewed in the answer to Stapletons fortresse. But he vrgeth vsus to shew, what Pope chaunged their religion, what tumults rising in the worlde thereon, what Doctors withstoode it, what coūcels accu…sed &c. which he saith they can shew in all innouatiōs both great & sinal, that euer by heretikes were attēpted. What an impudent lyar is this Bristow to brag of that, which at this day is impossible to be don, by any mā liuing in the worlde. For of so many heretikes as are rehersed by Epiphanius & Augustine, not the one halfe of thē can be so shewed as Bristow like a blind bayard boasteth they can doe. But if we say the chaunge was not made al at once we must shew whē eueryevery pece was altered, as they do of our doctrin, of old taught by many old heretiks, AErius denying praier for the dead &c. Whereof many are slaūders & lyes, the rest if we can not defend by Scriptures let them be takē for heresies. To the purpose, we hauehave often shewed and are ready daily to shew, the beginning of many of their heresies, & errors, as of the Popes supremacy in Victor, of prayer for the dead in the Montanists, of their crossing in the Valentinians, of images in the Gnos…ikes and Carpocratians, and so of a great many other errors, which are contrary to the holy Scriptures, by which we first reproue them of falshood, and as stories serue vsus, we open their beginnings. And wheras Bristow without all shame, affirmeth that prayer for the dead was vsed alwayes, & citeth Irenaeus among other for his auctor he sheweth nothing but impudency matched with his heresie, for there is no worde in Ireneus, to proue that prayer for the dead was vsed of any godly man of his time.
Tertullian a Montanist is the first that maketh any mention of prayers for the dead, & only in such bookes as he wrote when he was an heretike. Whereas Augustine sayth Ep. 119. That ye church of God nether app…oueth, nor keepeth secret, nor doth such thinges as be against the faith, and good maners, it is to be vnderstanded of such things, as the church knoweth to be against the faith. For of some thinges the church may be ignorant, as Augustine confesseth in his retractations lib. 2. cap. 18. Vbicun que in his libris commemoraui ecclesiam non habentem maculam aut ruga… non sic accipiendum est, quasi iam sit, sed quae praeparatur vt sit, quando apparebit etiam gloriosa. nunc enim propter quasdam ignorantias & infirmitates me…brorum su…rum, habet vnde qu…tidie tota dicat: Dimitte nobis d…bita nostra. Wheresoeuer in those bookes I hauehave made mention of ye church, not hauing spot or wrinckle, it is not to be takē, as though she were so now, but which is prepared that …he may be when she shall appeare also glorious: For now because of certaine ignorances and infirmities of her members, euen the whole church hath cause to say euerie day, forgiue vsus our trespasses. Notwithstanding the watchmen therefore prophecied by Esay, continually geuing warning vponupon the walles against the inuasion of open enemies, and blasphemous heretikes, yet many hypocrites hauehave crept into the church secretly, and vnderunder shew of pietie, hauehave shewed many errors and superstitions, while the mysterie of miquity wrough… the full manifestation and Apostasie of Antichrist. In the demaunde Bristow denyeth that any Pope did erre, although I hauehave shewed both out of stories, S. Hierom, the Pope Damasus, and the generall councels, the contrarie. But admitting they did erre, yet (sayth he) they erred not in such matters as the Protestantes doe now charge the Pope & Romaines withall. Whereto I answer, that against that blasphemous principle of theirs, that the Pope can not erre, we first bring in those examples of Popes, that were heretikes & for their time altered religion like heretikes in such matte…s as we both confesse to be errors. Then this being obteyned, that the Pope is not priuiledged from error, the matters in controuersie wherewith we charge the Pope, are to be examined only by the auctoritie of the holy Scriptures and thereby to be decided.
The 25. motiue is the 9. demaunde.
The conuersion of Heathen nations. Caluines Legates in Bristow.India. The discorde of Protestantes. Iesuites Fryers preaching in India. Miracles for our whole religion. The Apostles were of our religion. The church is euerlasting and visible.
All nations that were at the first cōuerted to the true faith of Christ were conuerted by the Apostles, whose Fulke.faith and doctrine we hold, and will proue by their writings that we holde none other. As for the argument of …ryers preaching in India & miracles wrought so fa. re hence, with such great conuersion of the Indians vntounto Popery, if it were true, yet proueth it no more then the preaching and miracles of the false Apostles Phil. 1. and the conuersion of the Gothes and Vandalls Crepides &c. by the Arrians and other nations by Nestorius &c. doth proue those false Apostles to be true Apostles, or the heresies of the Arrians &c. to be true doctrine. Wherefore not the Papistes, but the Apostles of Christ, were his witnesses, vntounto the vttermost places of the earth. But of this matter of c…nuersion, and all thinges conteyned, you may reade somewhat more at large in mine aunswere to Stapletons fortresse, where the same is handled. part. 1. cap. 16. & 17.