A Retentive to Stay Good Christians, Title page · Motive 18 – Motive 22
The 18. motiue is the 3. demaund.
Going out. S. Optatus motiue. The churches practise is alwayes infallible. The vnitie and constancie of the Bishops Bristow.of England. Protestants doe decay and shall come to nothing.
We like Optatus Motiue well, for going out of the Fulke.Church into any other faction. But it may not be drawn contrarie to his meaning against those which goe out of Babilon into Ierusalem. He saith, VVe must see who hath remained in the roote with the whole worlde. Verely not the Papists, which are departed from the doctrine of the Apostles which is the roote of the Church, by them planted in all the worlde. VVe must see who is gone foorth. which Bristow doth rightly referre to that saying of Saint Paule. Discedent quidam à fide, Some shall departe from the Fayth. But who are those? They that teache the doctrine of deuilles, forbidding to marrye and commaunding to abstaine from meates. Nowe whether Papists or protestants be such, let the worlde iudge. Optatus will hauehave it farther considered, VVho is set in an other Chayre that was not before? Verely none so manifestly as the Pope, who sitteth in a Chayre, that none of the Apostles, nor Apostolike men, for many hundreth yeeres after Christe did knowe.
Againe, VVho hath sette an Aultar against the Aultar? who but the Papists, which hauehave erected the Sacrifice of the Masse, to ouerthrow the Aultar of the crosse of Christ? Finally, VVho hath made an ordination, the other before ordayned, beeing whole & sounde. Quis ordinationem fecerit saluo altero ordinato. Which Bristow hath falsely trāslated thus. VVho hath placed Bishops there, where others were placed before which are yet aliue. As though it were a faulte, to putte out false Bishoppes, and to supply the roomes with true Bishoppes, where as Optatus meaneth of Heretikes, which are gone from true Byshoppes, and sette vppe Heretikes in schisme, the true Bishoppes still remayning as the Papistes did in Queene Maryes time, vntyll they had burned vppe almoste all.
As for the vnitie and constancy of the popishe deposed Prelates, which hee commendeth, is sufficiently knowne to the worlde, which although they were all saue one obstinate in the beginning of her Maiesties raygne, because they hoped by trayterous practises, foolish prophecies, & deuilish coniuration, to see an alteration shortly, aswel for religion, as also for the whole state of the common wealth, and withall had experience of the mercifulnes and compassion of the Kinges of Israell, so that they were not in feare of their liues, or any great hazard of their goods, yet had they all or the most part of them (such was their good constancy) reuolted from popery, and sworne against the Pope, in the raygne of Kinge Henrye and King Edward. As for the decaye of Protestants and professors of the truthe of Gods word, which the cold prophet foreseeth, by some trayterous deuise, whispered among his pewfellowes at Louayne or Dowaye, it shall hauehave such successe and euent by Gods grace, as hitherto the like treasonable practises hauehave obteyned, whiche alwayes, (Gods holy name be praysed therefore) hath turned to the confusion of Popery and the further spreading of the light of the Gospell.
In the demaunde, he vrgeth vsus to shewe when the Romanes went out of the truth, f…rsaking any company of Christians then liuing. This hath bene often shewed, that the Romanes though not all at once, yet by litle and litle, euen as the mysterie of iniquitie got strength, which began to worke in the Apostles tyme, hauehave departed from the communion of other Christians. The first storye that maketh notable mention, is Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. of Victor which did cut him selfe from all the Churches of the East about a ceremonye, since which tyme, the Romane Bishops, by litle and litle, hauehave departed vntill they made a generall apostasie and defection, from the vniuersall Churche, condemning all the Christians in the world, except such as held of their particular schismaticall and hereticall Churche of Rome.
The 19. motiue is the 4. demaund.
Risinge afterwarde. Saynt Ireneus and Tertullians motiue.Bristow.
He spendeth muche labour in vayne, to proue that Fulke.the first religion is the onelyonly true religion, and that all sectes that arise after, are false, which we graunt most willingly with Irenaeus, Tertullian, and the Scripture it selfe. But he hath not one worde to proue, that our religion is of a later springe, then the Apostles, and therefore like an asse, he flyeth to their common stable, saying that Luther liued but yesterdaye, as though Luther were the firste author of our religion. Which if it be not as auncient as Christ and the Apostles, might easiely be confuted by the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles, contayned in the holye Scriptures.
The 20. motiue is the 5. demaunde.
Beginninge with wondringe and gaynesaying of Christians Bristow.then in vnitye, vvhichwhich is Saynte Irenaeus motiue.
Our religion of Christ reuealed in the fleshe, began with wondring and gaynesaying of Scribes, & Pharisees, Fulke.as it is manifest by the historye of the Gospell, Marke 1. yet was not the doctrine of Christ newe or straunge, but newely begonne to be restored, which was by them corrupted, so is the same now wondred at, and gaynesayde by their successors, the Papistes, but of true Christians it is nether wondred at, nor gaynesayde, contrariwise the heresie of Papistes, in manye poyntes was wondred at and gaynesayde by true Christians, whiche Bristowe saythe, we can not proue to be in anye one. For example, I will name one of the chiefest articles which they holde, namely, the Popes supremacye, vponupon which all the rest in
Eusebius testifyeth, that when Victor Bishoppe of Rome, which was the first that challēged any supremacie tooke vponupon him to excommunicate the Churches and Bishops of Asia, about the celebration of Easter: His presumption was wondred at and gainesayde, not only by those Churches and their Bishops, but euen by others neere hand, as by Irenaeus Bishop of Lyons in Fraunce, which sharpely reproued him therfore, more thē two hundreth yeeres after, when Zozimus & other Romish Prelates made claime to a kind of supremacy, in resisting appeale out of Africa, and for that purpose, had counterfaited a decree of the Nic…ne councel: They were wondred at and gainesaid by the whole councell of Carthage. The like might I shewe, for worshipying of Images, the reall presence transubstatiation &c. But where hee sayeth that all heresies were wondered at and gainesaide, immediatly after they arose, it cannot be proued. Nor that all was Heresie that was gainesaide by them that were in vnitie.
For the baptisme of Heretikes was gainesaide by Saincte Cyprian and all the Bishoppes of Africa, yet was it none heresie, that Infants might be sauedwith out receiuing of the communion, was gainesaid by Innocentius Bishop of Rome, and by S. Augustine and by all the church, that was at vnitie against the Pelagians. August, contra duas epistolas Pelag. ad Bonifacium. lib. 2. Cap 4. Yet was not that opinion then helde by the Pelagians otherwise horrible Heretikes and heresie, but that which the Bishop of Roms & the rest of the known visible church did holde, was an er…or whereby you may see, how truely the commaundement of Christe vntounto Peter, to confirme his Brethren after his conuersion doth giuegive the Byshop of Rome' power neuer to be deceiued. nor to fall into error. And that the Church may be the piller and stay of trueth, although the chiefe members thereof, and generally all that are knowen to be members thereof may be taken in some particular error.
The 21. Motiue is the 42. demaunde.
Vnsent. Orders. Protestants allowe better of our orders thē of their owne.Bristow.
Wheras Bristowe chargeth vsus to be vnsent, it is nothing else, but a popish slaunder and petition of principle, Fulke.for we are called and sent ordinarily by the Church and elders of the same, to preach the word of God and to minister the Sacraments. Neither are we ordayned by a lay Prince, as he like a lewde Papist doth slaunder both our Christian Prince and vsus. And although the Prince by letters Patents hath sent some to preach and visite the Churches of her dominions, yet shee hath doone it by authoritie of the worde of God and by example of godly Princes, Iosaphat and other 2. Chro. 17. not taking vponupon het to execute any ecclesiasticall function, but according to her kingly authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall.
And where Bristowe saith we allowe better of their popish orders, then of our owne, secking as much as we can possible, to be consecrated by one of their orders, except it be some such proude hypocrite as Bristowe is, that so iudgeth and seeketh, it is a moste abhominable lye. For withall our heart, wee abhorre, defie, detest and spit at your stinking greasie antichristian orders. Neither doth our Church receiue any of your execrable, ordering to minister in the Church before they hauehave solemnly by othe renounced your Antichriste, and publikely as well professed to imbrace all true religion, as Protested that in their conscienses they defy all papistry and other heresies. Although many godly men wishe, yet a more seuere discipline in examining and receiuing such as come our of your heresie, to serue in the Church of God.
The 22. motiue is the 43. demaund.
Suceession. S. Optatus motiue. The Church is euerlasting & visible. S. Hieroms & S. Augustines motiue. the Church euerlasting. Bristow.The communion of the B. of Rome, to be kept of all Christians. Succession in the see Apostolike. Tertullians and Augustines motiues.
That the Church is euerlasting, Bristow neede not hauehave takē such paynes to proue, & that this continuance Fulke.is preserued by succession, is also to be confessed. But yt this succession is visible, & limited to any one sea of bishops, it is false. For euen as he him selfe sayth it is necessary that all Adams children to be come of Adam by a continuall pedegree of fathers and grandfathers and other progenitors, euen vntill his time, and yet no one of Adams childrē can deduce this pedegree by naming of all his progenitors from Adam vntounto his time so there is no doubt, but the Church hath had a perpetuall succession in the world, from ye beginning thereof, vntil this day, although she can not name a particular succession of persons in any one place, for all ages that are past. But euen as by the Scriptures we are taught, that Adam is our naturall father, although we can not name all our aūcestors that hauehave bene betwene vsus and him: right so by the Scriptures we are taught, that the Church is our heauenly mother, although we can not frame such tables of succession as the Papistes require vsus to shew, which they can not performe them selues. For although they can name a number of Bishops, whereof some hauehave taught at Rome, some hauehave sitten and slept in their chayer at Rome, and some at Auynion, some hauehave played the deuill therein, an hundreth of the last being no more like to a score of the firste in doctrine and life, then God, whose children the first were, is like the deuill whose derlings the last were: yet what is this to shewe a succession of their Church. And howe doth this proue them to be the true Churche: can not the Churche of Constantinople and other Churches in Greece, doe the like vntounto this daye? Yet doe the Papistes count all them for heretikes and scismatikes. Whatsoeuer therefore Optatus, Hierom, Augustine, Tertullian, or any other hauehave written of succession of Bishops in the Apostolike sees, they meane so large and so farre forth as they continue in succession of Apostolike doctrine. Otherwise woulde not Hierom hauehave embraced Arrianisme, because it was receyued by Liberius who sate in the Apostolike see of Rome, and coulde name his predecessors from Peter. Nor Optatus hauehave receyued Eutychianisme, because it was defended by Dioscorus, which satte in the Euangelisticall see of Alexandria, and coulde name his predecessors from S. Marke the disciple of S. Peter. Nether woulde Augustine hauehave consented to Arrianisme, because it was mayntayned by Eulalius and Euzoius, Bishops of the Apostolike see of Antioche, althoughe they were able to shewe their succession by many Bishops, euen vntounto S. Peter him selfe, who planted his chayer at Antioche, by all Papistes confession seuen yeares before he came to Rome. You see therefore howe farre the motiue of succession may drawe or driue any man to hauehave regard vntounto it, euen as long, as there is succession of doctrine, as well as of place and person, and not longer, nor further.