Rejoinder to Bristows Reply, Part 1 · Chapter 7
CAP. VII.
That he hath no other shift against our manifolde Euidences Bristowe.(so cleere they be) but the name of only Scripture, as well about ech controuersie, as also about the meaning of the scripture it self: And howe timerous he maketh vsus, and how bolde he beareth him selfe heereupon.
First he chargeth me with shamefull confessions, that I hauehave been faine to make against mine owne side, and Fulke.for their side: which what they are, you hauehave heard alreadie, and what shame I hauehave gotten by them, and what aduantage their side hath of them. Next he promiseth to shew the same more cleerly by running ouer those common euidences of Christian trueth, out of which he framed his Motiues and demands, which I confesse to be al against me, because I take exception against them, & say that onelyonly scripture is good euidence in such suits &c. But what I confesse or deny of those euidences may best be seene in my Retentiue against his motiues and demaundes.
The first part.
Howe he excepteth by onelyonly scripture, against all other euidences Bristowein the controuersies that are betwene vsus, and first against the rule to knowe heresie &c.
Hee rehearseth many sentences of mine mangled & Fulke.interrupted with his owne glosses in which I professe, that No opinion is heresie which is not contrary to the holy scriptures, although it be accompted heresie of the worlde: where hee slaundereth me to terme them the worlde, which before I confessed to be the true Church. The places Art. 44. where I speak of them which preaching in these later times against poperie, hauehave beene of the Romishe Church condemned for heretikes, as Waldo, Wickelief, Hus, &c. In the processe following where I sayd (yt if Aerius had not bene an Arrian, the opinion he held against prayer for the dead, coulde not hauehave made him an heretike) Bristow compting my saying to be blasphemie, (belike against the Popes kitchē) addeth yt it seemeth I knewe not the purpose of Augustine in his book de Haer. which he saith was the purpose of Epiphanius also, not to confute but only to report of heresies yt had benbefore his time: Seeing it is inough to know yt the catholik Churches iudgement is against thē: And that it helpeth much the faithfull hearte onelyonly to know what must not be belieued, although he be not able to confute it by disputing. And why seeme I ignorant of this purpose? except it be because I said, yt neither Epiphanus nor Augustine, reproued by scripture, that which in Aerius they cōpted to be an error. But the case is so cleare (saith Bristow) that the very aduersary confesseth, that it was the Catholik Church that iudged Aerius to be an heretike. Yea sir for his Arrianisme, but I neuer cōfessed, neither can you euer prooue yt any iudgement of the Catholike Church in general councel passed against Aerius for denying prayer for the dead, before the dayes of Epiphanius or Augustine, although the error of prayer for the …ead in that age was commonly receyued, not vponupon any good ground of Canonical scripture, but vponupon a corrupt custome first brought in by heretikes. Afterward where I following an allegorie of dogges vsed by Allen, tell him yt hee must not teach his scholers to barke & baule against vsus, nothing but The Church, the Church, like …inkers curres &c. he cryeth out in the margent, O worthy estimation that he hath of the Church, as though, I think lesse worthily of the Church, because I deride the vaine boasting of the name of ye Church in thē which are nothing lesse then the true church. Neither do I appoint mine enimy not to inuade me with a gunne (as he saith) when I make the scripture onelyonly to be my weapon both inuasiue and defensiue. But it is a great absurditie as he …weeneth, that I say an heretike is he which in ye Church, obstinately mainteyneth an opinion contrarie to the scriptures: seeing S. Iohn saith, exierunt a nobis, they are gone out from vsus. And if an heretikee be a man in the Church we are cockesure, with all heretikes, and the Papistes onelyonly in daunger. Why Bristow, make ye no difference betweene him that is in the Church, and him ye is of the Church? They be not al mēbers of ye Church, that be in ye Church, and therfore S. Iohn saith of them yt are gone frō vsus, If they had bene of vsus they would hauehave tarried with vsus. And doe you account him an heretike that holdeth an error cleane out of the Church? then may you count all Paganes, Turkes, and Iewes, to be heretikes. What say you of Antichrist that sitteth euer in the Temple of God? it helpeth not heretikes, that they rise vp in the visible Church, from whence also they are often times cast out, so long as they bee not members of the body of Christ, which is the inuisible Church, and heauenly Ierusalem, which is the mother of vsus all.
Where I sayde, that whosoeuer holdeth an opinion obstinately, which hee is not able to proue by ye worde of God, although hee hauehave many authors before him, yet hee is neuerthelesse an heretike. Bristowe addeth in the margent, though it bee S. Augustine himselfe, and though he holde the foundation heere. cap. 5. Touching the former part, I say not onelyonly though it were Saint Augustine, but although it were Saint Peter himselfe or an Angell from heauen, Gal. 1. Touching the later parte, I aunswere, my meaning is of such opinions, as are against the foundation, and so is my whole discourse, purg 412. whence this saying is borowed. Agayne, where hee concludeth that I confesse Aerius, Iouinian, and Vigilantius to hauehave beene condemned by the true Church of Christ, in such poyntes of doctrine, as wee agree with him: I aunswere as before of Aerius alone, I neuer made such confession.
In that I refuse to finde the firste authors of all their errors, he saith, I am faine to flee to my colde exception of onelyonly scripture, as though to iustifie our doctrine, by the Apostles, and that so sensibly, were not inough. O sensible iustification, by which all errors, whose first authors cannot be found must be layd vponupon the Apostles. But most ridiculous of all is Fulke, where he cōmeth in with this exception vpō Tertullians rule. Id esse verum &c. That is true what soeuer is first, yt is false & forged which is later. But how shall the first doctrine bee knowne, but by the worde of God, wherein all the doctrine of God is taught? What is here I pray you to bee laughed at? Forsooth, Bristowe saith, T…ullian hath there an other rule against such heresies, as presumed to say, their founders liued in the Apostles time. But this rule hee giueth against all such, as rise any time after as Aerius, Luther Caluine, &c. bidding vsus consider what was taught and belecued immediatly before they arose: for that vnd…ub…dly is the trueth, and their later doctrine is falshood. But what if Bristow take Richard for Robert, is not he then ridiculous? The rule of Tertullian whereof I speake, Purg. 410. & Ar. 42. is written in his booke aduersus Praxeam. although Allen doe falsely quote it de praescriptionibus. But what if Tertullian euen in this rule giuen against heretikes in his booke de praescriptionibus doe expresly affirme the worde of God to bee the triall of that which … former and true to conuince that which is latter and …lse, is not Bristowe most ridiculous of all? His words …e these: Sed ab, excessu reuertar ad principalitatē veritatis & …osteritatem mendaci…atis deputandam ex illius quoque parabo… patrocinio, quae bonum semen frumenti a Domino seminatum …rimò constituit auenarum aut sterilis foeni adulterium, ab ini…ico diabolo postea superducit. Propriè enim doctrinarum di…tinctionem figurat, quia & alibi verbum Dei seminis simili…do est. Ita ex ipso ordine manifestatur, id esse dominicum & …erum, quod sit prius tradi…m: id autem extraneum & sal…um, quod sie posterius immissum. Ea sententia manebit aduer…s posteriores quasque haereses, quibus nulla constantia de con…ciencia compettt ad defendendam sibi veritatem. But from this …xcesse, I will returne to shew ye priority of truth & po…terioritie of falshood euen out of ye defence of ye parable …hich first of al setteth forth ye good seed of wheat sowne …y our Lorde, and afterwarde bringeth on the coun…erfeiting of Otes or baren grasse by the enemie the …iuel. For it figureth properly ye difference of doctrines, …ecause elsewhere also the worde of GOD is the si…ilitude of seede: So by the very order, it is made ma…ifest that to bee the Lordes & true which was formost …eliuered, that to be straunge and false which is cast in …fterward. This decree shal remain against later heresies whatsoeuer, which hauehave no constācie of consciēce to de…end ye truth to be on the irside. Where is there here any word of Bristows glosse of Tertullian bidding vsus consider &c? I thinke he had not redde ye place in Tertullian himself, but followed some papistes collection vponupon it, and because hee coulde not auoyde that which I sayd, hee thought it best by calling it so much and so often ridiculous, to laugh it out, as they say, when hee was not able otherwise to aunswere it.
Likewise I sayd, that we refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lyrinensis concerning antiquitie, so you can prooue God to bee the author, the Prophetes and Apostles for witnesses: vnderunder this antiquitie that which had an erroneus beginning shall hauehave a shamefull ending, Purg. 399. Heere Bristowe taketh aduantage of the Printers error, although he be admonished … of in the Corrections, and not content with that, … fieth my wordes making me to say, as for witnesse … this antiquitie we passe not for them. Yes … we esteeme all good witnesses of that auncient … whereof God is the author. But you say ye rule w… receyue, proueth the Apostles to be authors of sole… payer for the dead in ye Masse, & such like articles … taught and beleeued, before Luther began such … uations &c. But I reply, that Vincentius rule, is … such fooles fable, but requireth antiquitie to bee … tinued alwayes euen from Christ, which seeing you … not shewe, no… other conditions which hee requi… for your articles, his rule helpeth you nothing at a… … rule which he handleth at large throughout his b… is briefly set downe in this sentence. In ipsa … Ecclesia mag… … est, … id … q…d …, q…d …er, … ab …us … est … propri…que C…n (q…d i…sa …) q…d …. A… the Catholike Church it selfe wee must greatly … that wee hold that thing which hath bene eueryevery…, which hath beene alwayes, which hath beene of all … beleeued, for that is truely and properly Ca… (which the verie force and reason of the name d… reth) that comprehendeth al thinges truely … ly. Examine your articles by this rule a…d you … finde not one of them catholike. So that my excep… of ye soueraigne authority of only scripture …deth … well with the rules both of Tertulli… and Vince… Lyri…. For to the trueth, as Aristotle saith, all … ges agree that are true, but f…lshoode soone bewrayeth itselfe.
2 Aga… the A… ….Bristowe. F….
Aga… … …ed traditions of the Apo…, I make exceptiō ▪ of the writinges of the Apostles to b… the onelyonly c…yne …esse of the… true tradition. A…d I saye All… bl…ph…mously f…thereth …ppon the Apo…, the institution of popish prayer and sacrifice for ye …. …we chargeth me neuerthelesse to affirme, yt …, Cyprian, Augustine, Ierome, and a great ma… are witnesses hereof, Pur. 362. wherin he shame…y belyeth mee, for that I do onelyonly rehearse parte of …s wordes which affirmeth them to be witnesses. …ch thing Bristowe might easily see by the diuersi… of print, if he had not beene disposed to …under me. …er this by the example of Allen, which is a great po…, I pose the Papistes with this question: Why God …uld hauehave none of the Apostles to put this matter or …e worde thereof in writing, which afterward shoulde … disclosed by Tertullian, Cyprian, Augustine, &c. … … Bristow after much bibling out of S. Augustin, …e Apostles hauehave not left in writing the whole order …celebration of ye sacraments: answereth, yt one piece of … that it was omitted by the apostles, was for bre…s sake. But I (Bristow) do not speake of any order or …me of ceremonies, which because they are variable, …cording to times, places & persons, the apostles hauehave … prescribed: but of ye doctrin of praying & sacrifising …r the dead, which in much lesse b…uitie then the …stles vsed, might hauehave beene without any tedi…nes let downe, at the least in one worde mentioned. …herfore breuitie could be no piece of the cause, but a …ore & miserable refuge of a papist driuen to the wall …r want of a better answere. But if this be a piece, what is then … supplemēt of ye whole cause? Bristow answereth in these words: … to … in …g. Which … so many …f … one of …wspan… w…ld …. Do I imagine (Bristowe▪ & am so greatly …ceiued▪ I follow not mine own imagination but their …ne writing. S. Iohn testifieth that those things which … had written, were su… to obtaine euerlasting life …y beleeuing them. Io…. S. Luke …eweth his purpose … …th in a … summe, the trueth of all thinges, … the …les deliuered, concerning the doc…ine & …ngs of Christ L…. Ac…. S. Paul …eth yt the holy scriptures were able to make the man of God perfe… prepared to all good workes, 2 Tim. 2. But you hauehave greate reason to proue that they purposed not to put all in writinge: because neither so many of them, nor o… of them so often, would hauehave mētioned one thing: wh… as contrariwise it is manifest thereby, that they studie not so much for breuitie but that they might hauehave expressed in a word or two prayers & sacrifice for yt dea… seing so manye of them, & some one so often, doeth mention one thing. Againe it were againste reason, that they shoulde mention one thing so often, whic… though it be profitable, yet it is not necessarie to bee often mentioned: & to omitte altogether such matten as are necessarie to bee knowne, and not in one worde mention them. The purpose of the holy ghost, that Bristowe doth imagine, were in writing the scriptures to a bare effect: that the gospels were written onelyonly to shewe Christ to say Consummatum est and al things to be fulfilled of him which were written of him: the Actes of the Apostles to shew, but as it were the first birth of the Church: the Apocalipse to shew the whole course of the Churche, to the ende of the worlde, The other bookes were written (saith he) specially against the perfidious Iewes & other false maisters of that time: As likewise in euerie age afterwarde we hauehave the Ecclesiasticall (I say not the Canonicall) writers and councels. See you not how the blasphemous dog▪ restraineth the vse of ye Apostles epistles specially to the time in which they were written, & cōpareth Ecclesiasticall writers and councels, wt the canonical scriptures? If this that he saith were true, the scriptures were not sufficient to make a man wise to saluation as S. Paul saith wtout traditions & Ecclesiastical writers. 2. Tim. 3.
Those thinges which S. Paul promiseth to set in order when he commeth, 1 Cor. 11. I said must be vnderstood not of doctrine but of ceremonies, as the worde foreign, doth signifie. Bristowe aunswereth, that the solemne prayer for the deade in the celebration of the sacrifice, is one of Saint Paules ordinances. I reply, if the doctrine of praying for the dead were contayned Saint Paules writing, yea, or in any part of the cano…all Scriptures, wee would not striue for the forme … prayer. But if wee may adde newe doctrines vponupon …ler of the Apostles tradition, neither is the Scrip…e so perfect as the holy Ghoste affirmeth it to bee, …ther can the gappe be shutt from any heresie, to …ast it selfe of the tradition of the Apostles, as the Va…tinians, and other heretikes hauehave done, and all he…ikes may do.
But tradition of the Apostles is as good as their wri…gs. To this obiection I aunswere, that their writings … the onlye true testimonie of their tradition to vsus. …stowe replyeth: So were they not to the Thessalonians, … they had of S. Paul traditions partly by worde of mouth, …tly by writing. I reioyne, that wee hauehave no traditions … the Apostes, but by their writing wee neuer hearde … deliuer any thing by word of mouth, but we know …ir writings contein the summe of their preachings. Concerning the doubtfulnesse and contradiction yt …yde was in the fathers them selues, about those mat…s that are not conteined in the Scriptures: Bristowe …nswereth first, their doubts are not of the traditions, …t of circumstances of persons, and other matters con…ning the traditions, which is as much as I shewed by …amples and testimonies out of their writings, Purg. …7. Ar. 39. Pur. 317.
The contradiction supposed to be in Chrysostome (where he sayeth, first that small helpe can be procured for the dead, afterwarde he sayeth, the Apostles knewe that much commoditie came to the dead by praying …or them) Bristowe aunswereth is none at all. For in …e first place, he speaketh of riche men which did not pro…e any comfort to their soules by their riches, that their friends …n procure but little in respect of that they might hauehave procured …em selues: because a mans owne workes are also meritorious … euerlasting rewarde so are not his friends workes meritori… vntounto him at all, no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine, … his owne nothing like. But how a mans owne workes … his friendes workes, may be either meritorious or satisfactorious any thing at all, he bringeth no proofe … all. And that he sayeth of Chrysostome is vtterly false for if istos be referred in the former sentence defleam… istos, vntounto those riche men so dying onelyonly, what reaso… is there, why orantes pro istis, should not be referred vntounto them also? But seeing the memory which he sai… was decreede of the Apostles, was generall for all the… that departed in faith, why should not that, much profite comming thereby, pertaine to them, of who… he sayde before, that small helpe they could hauehave? Likewise, that I added further of the Cathecumeni wh… Chrysostome iudged of helping them, Bristowe pas… ouer and sayeth neuer a worde vntounto it.
3 Against the Churches authoritie.Bristowe.
I saye plainly, the practise and authoritie of ye church, without the worde of God, reuealed in the scripture…, Fulke.is no rule of trueth. Where I commende Tertull… for confessing that prayers and oblations for the dead, are not taken out of the Scriptures, Bristowe sayeth I am hastie to take that which Tertullian doth not giuegive, as he hath shewed in the thirde chapter: but seeing in the thirde Chapter, he referreth mee to the 9. Chapter, thither also will I referre him for answere.
Where Allen alledgeth a rule of S. Augustine, Quòd legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi: that the order of the ch… ches prayer (saith Bristowe) is euen a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beleeue, because Fulke could not make his florish with that ende, forwarde, he turneth the staffe, as though S. Augustine & D. Allen had sayed, that the lawe of beleeuing should make a lawe of praying. And here he cryeth out of falsification by changing. So sayeth S. Augustine (saith Bristowe:) in that sense speaketh S. Augustine often against the Pelagians (sayeth Allen) but in what booke or chapter neither of both doeth shewe among so many treatises as Augustine hath written against the Pelagians. Wherefore if I hauehave altered the forme of wordes yet without falsification, especially seing it is a more probable sense and agreeable to the scriptures, …t faith should teach vsus to praye, rather then prayer …che … to beleeue. For howe shall they call vppon …, sayeth the Apostle, in whome they hauehave not belee…d? Rom. 10. But seeing there is a mutuall relation …weene the cause and the effectes, the one argueth & …oueth the other. For as faith teacheth men first to …ye, so the prayer is an argument of the faith, accor…g to which it is conceiued. But true faith com…th onelyonly by hearing the worde of God, therefore …e prayer commeth onelyonly by hearing the worde of …d, and is not acceptable to God except it be framed …ording to the worde of God. After this, he sayeth, I … as bolde to except against the practise commen…d euen in the canonicall scripture, because I allowe …t the practise of Iudas Machabaeus conteined in the …phane and lying booke of the Machabees.
I sayde Ar. 86. There is neuer heresie but there is as …at doubt of the church as of the matter in question: …erefore only the Scripture is the staye of a mans con…nce. Hereof Bristowe gathereth this great absurdi…: Because heretikes make doubt of the Church, this heretike … that no Christian leane vntounto it. Yes verily, I will hauehave … men that know the Church, leane to the Church, de…ding truth against heresies: but for them that doubt … the trueth, and of the Church, I saye only scripture i… … staye of their conscience, to trye the trueth and the Church both: seing both heretikes & Catholikes make as great challenge to the Church as to the trueth.
But some heretikes make doubt of the Scriptures (sayeth he) either all, or some peece, as you doe of the …achabees. I aunswere, if any denye all Scriptures, …ey are more like Paganes and Atheists then heretiks, …th whome wee are not to reason by authoritie of …riptures, but by other inducements, such as were …d to the Paganes. Against those heretikes that re…iue some part of the Scriptures, wee are to dispute …t of those Scriptures which they receiue, as our saui…r Christ confuted the Saducees out of the bookes of …oses, because they receiued none other Scripture. For the book of Macha bees we doubt not, but are certaine, it is a prophane booke, as I hauehave shewed by many arguments, neuer receiued in the primitiue Church f… 400. yeares after Christ.
Where I say we submitted our selues to al Churche…, but so that they allow no consent or submission, but … the trueth which must be tryed onelyonly by gods word… Bristow saith with that, but so we wil consent the true… to Iacke strawe. Verily to consent vntounto Iacke stra… in truth, I take it to be none absurditie: but I speake not onelyonly of consent, but also of submission which we are not readie to yeeld to any but such whose authoritie … reuerence.
As for the 4. rules enacted by Parliament, for condemning heresie, if Bristow woulde vnderstand them like a quiet subiect, and not deride them like a scornefull traitor, he might vnderstand, yt the three later are not contrarie to the first, which determineth heresie by contrariety to the canonicall scripture, which is declared either in ye 4. first general councels, or in any other generall councell agreeing with the scripture, or may vponupon occasion be declared by Parliament hereafter: Not that the Parliament euer did imagine that it had authoritie to make truth heresie, or to make any thing heresie, which is not contrary to the canonicall scriptures.
After this he chargeth me that I will not beleue the Apostles nor the Angels without scriptures. What if I woulde not? were I worse then the Thessalonians, or Bereans, which dayly searched the scriptures, to see if those things that were taught by the Apostles were euen so? Act. 17. But I abuse the scripture (saith Bristowe) and turne the curse that saint Paul pronounceth, Gal. 1. which was of preaching, as if it were of onelyonly scripture. I aunswere, my wordes are these, if any man teach otherwise then the word of God alloweth, he is to be accursed: but seing wee hauehave no certeinty of the worde of God, since the Apostles departure, but the canonicall scriptures, which doe containe al that they preached, the same curse is rightly applyed to them that teach any other way of saluatiō, then that which is taught in ye holy Scriptures. The rest of this diuision is spent in shewing that I hold …ill my exception of onelyonly Scriptures against councels, …he see apostolike and succession of bishops, with a note … the ende, what a franklin I am to renounce such goodly euidence, whereof if I had any couler my selfe, …o mountybanke pedler, is so facing and boasting, as I …nd my fellowes. As franke as I seeme in renouncing …hat goodly euidence, I trust to be carefull enough; to …olde fast the euidence of eternall life, which is the ho…y Scriptures of God: and if I and my fellowes boast in …hem, because our boasting is in God, I doubt not but …ee shalbe better accepted of him, then they that count …hat boasting a stale exception, and boast in vanitie, …ust in lying, and at least make flesh for their arme, & …heir heart departeth from the liuing God.
4 Against the fathers.Bristowe.
Although I challenge the Papists to proue their do…rine Fulke.of Purgatorie and prayers for the dead, out of the …uncient catholike fathers that liued within 200. yeares …ter Christ: because I knowe they cannot, yet in that …allenge, I say nothing contradictorie to my former …ssertion, that onelyonly the worde of God conteined in the …oly Scriptures, is the iudge of all doctrine, and tryall of trueth, and stay of a Christian mans conscience against any thing yt is taught to be beleeued vntounto saluation, or concerning the worship of God, either contrary to it, or beside it. But Fulkes two onelyes (sayeth Bristowe) namely onelyonly the moste auncient Church, and only Scripture, are vtterly without all ground, and but …eere voluntarie. If it be without grounde, to make the worde of God the onelyonly iudge of godlinesse, and the most ancient Church the best witnesse thereof, let eueryevery Christian conscience consider. As for the voluntarinesse, …f you vnderstand the challenges to be voluntarie, be…ause you will not accept them, let your will stande in …eede of reason: but if you call them voluntarie, because you neede not accept them, and yet approue your selues good Christians: remember who it is, that sayth, my sheepe heare my voice and not a straungers, & let eueryevery man see whereto the bragge of antiquitie is come, when you will not be tyed to the most auncient Churches testimony, and the eldest writers of the same.
Nowe, concerning other by quarrels, and cauils, whereas I sayde: Whatsoeuer we finde in the fathers agreeable to the Scriptures, wee receiue it, with their praise: and whatsoeuer is disagreeable to the scriptures, we refuse with their leaue. Bristowe noteth within a parenthesis: He meaneth expressed in the Scriptures. But who made him so priuie of my meaning? my wordes import no such thing: for many things are agreeable to the scriptures that are not expressed in them. I borrowed my phrase out of S. Augustine Contra Crescon homil. lib. 2. Cap. 32. which speaketh of Cyprian, that which I spake of all the fathers in generall. Ego huius epistolae authoritate non teneor, q… literas Cypriani, non vt canonicas habeo, sed ea… ex canonic… considero, & quod in eis diuinarum scripturarum authori… congruit, cum laude eius accipio, quod autem non congruit, cu… pace eius respuo. I am not holden by the authoritie of this Epistle, because I doe not account the writings of Cyprian as canonicall, but I consider them by the canonicall, and that which in them agreeth with the authoritie of the holy Scriptures, I receiue it with his praise, but that which agreeth not, I refuse it with his leaue. I thinke Bristowe will teache S. Augustine shortly, by that which agreeth with the Scripture, to meane onelyonly that which is expressed in so manye wordes.
Where I sayde, that when the fathers are opposed against the manifest worde of God, and the credite of the Apostles, there is no cause that we should be carryed away with them. Bristowe sayeth, in the margent, a… though we opposed the doctors to the Apostles. And what call you this but an opposition of the doctors to the Apostles, when wee saye, The Apostles hauehave not taught prayers for the dead in any of their writings: you aunswere, but the doctors hauehave taught prayers for the dead in their writings.
Where I saye the authoritie of mortall men, is not to be receiued, he noteth our absurditie, because not onelye Melancton and such like (as Allen hath tolde …s) were mortall men: but also in the same terme of mortall men, are the Apostles them selues comprehended. And what of this? Doe wee buylde vppon the authoritie of Melancton, or of Peter and Paul, as they were mortall men? No verily: Wee buyld vponupon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles, Iesus Christ beeing the corner stone, and the onelyonly author of the doctrine, whereof the Prophets and Apostles are witnesses, who spake and writte as they were moued by the holy ghoste, and therefore their writings wee receiue as the worde of God, which the spirite of God hath endyted by the penne of the Apostles.
Where I sayde: We dare not depend vppon any one man… …udgement, for wee must depend onelyonly vppon Gods worde. Bristowe answereth: Euen so dealt the vnbeleeuers, and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time, yea, and …ith Christ him selfe: and yet to winne such persons, both the Apostles and Christ him selfe, condescended to them accordingly. And why do not you follow the example of Christ, & of his Apostles, to winne so many thousandes, as doe refuse your doctrine, because you doe not iustifie it by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures? But the faithfull, (you thinke) for all that were not so straite laced, but beleeued them vppon their owne worde, both Christ and his Apostles, because of the spirite of trueth, that he sent to them. And God be thanked, we as faithfull men, acknowledge without controuersie, the spirite of trueth in Christ, and his Apostles. But he hath not sent his spirite to them onelyonly (sayeth Bristow) but also to his Church after them for euer. We doubt not, but he hath giuen his spirite to his Church, but not in such full measure, as to his Apostles. And if he had, how should wee knowe that Church that hath the same spirite, but by tryall of the scriptures, which were vndoubtedly written by the same spirite. Bristow saith, the faithfull will no lesse beleeue the Church, at all times, for the same spirite, then the Apostles. He must first proue, the spirite so giuen to the Church, that shee can no more erre in her decrees, then the Apostles could in their writings. Secondly, if that were proued, the tryall of the Scriptures is necessary to discerne the true Church from all false congregations, which all boast of the spirite of trueth, as much as the true Church. And seeing the holy ghost by his instrument S. Iohn, biddeth vsus not beleeue eueryevery spirite, but trye the spirites, whether they be of God, we knowe none so sure a triall, as the consent of their doctrine with the holy scriptures, whether it be a multitude of men, or seueral persons, of one age, or another, of one degree or other, that offreth to teache any doctrine, which he or they pretende to hauehave of the spirite of God.
Last of all, where I sayde: Age can neuer make falshod to be trueth, and therefore I w…y not your prowd bragges worth a strawe. Bristowe noteth in the margent, It is pryde to follow the fathers, and humilitie to condemne them. Whereto I aunswere, to boast of the fathers to maintaine an olde errour, is stinking pryde, and it is not against true humilitie to make fathers and mothers, and all things else subiect to the trueth of Gods worde, reuealed in the holy scriptures.
The second parte.
Being tolde that the question betweene vsus is not (as he maeketh Bristowe.it) of the Scriptures authoritie, but of the meaning: howe there likewise against all the expositors, he maketh the same exception of onelyonly scripture, requiring also scripture to be expounded by scripture.
When in all this Chapter, you deny, onelyonly scripture Fulke.to be of soueraine authoritie, sufficiency, and credite, to teache vsus all the will of God, are you not impudent, to saye, the question is not of the authoritie of the Scriptures? But I supposing the controuersies to be of the meaning, and not of the authoritie, Pur. 363. do aunswer nothing whether the likelihood b… on our side, or on the auncient doctors side, for the meaning of the scripture. What then? I aunswere, the question of the meaning of the scriptures is needelesse in that controuersie: where some of ye doctors confesse prayer for the dead not to be grounded on the Scriptures, other wrest the Scriptures so manifestly, that the Papistes them selues are ashamed to vse those textes for such purposes. This aunswere I trust, will satisfie reasonable men for that controuersie. After this, he sayeth, I count my selfe and my companions happie, for such blinde presumption, to search the meaning of the Scriptures, only out of the Scriptures, without the cōmentaries of doctors, but as he troweth, not without the cōmentaries of Caluine. But herein, as in all things almost, he belyeth mee: for I neuer spake word against the reading of the cōmentaries of doctors in search of the Scriptures meaning, but onelyonly against absolute credite to be giuen to their exposition, without weying how it agreeth with the holy Scriptures in other places.
Likewise, where I compare the whole heape of superstition & errour, out of which Allen raiseth a mist of mens deuises to a dunghill: Bristowe noteth, that I make the doctors writings a dunghill. Surely what superstition or errour so euer be in the doctors, as the sweeping of a faire house, is meete to be cast on a dunghill. Let Bristowe or Allen, if he list, say there is no superstition or error in any of the doctors. And yet it followeth not, that the doctors writings are a dunghill, more then that a kings pallace is a dunghil, because the sweepings thereof are meete for the dunghill.
To passe ouer his rayling termes of drunkennesse, & blindnesse, &c. Let vsus come to the meaning of the scriptures, where I sayde, wee shalbe neuer the more certeine of the trueth, whether wee challenge, or leaue the likelihod of vnderstanding ye scriptures to the doctors.
Bristowe aunswereth, whosoeuer expoundeth the scripture vntounto that wherein the doctors doe agree, shall bee euer most certaine of trueth (which is inoughe) though not alwayes certain of that same verie places meaning. Wee are then much the neere, when the question is of the scriptures meaning, if by the consent of the doctors, we cannot be certaine of the scriptures▪ meaning. And if that trueth (as we beleeue that all trueth) is in the scriptures, howe can we be certaine of the trueth by the agreement of the doctors, where we cannot be certain of the meaning of the scriptures?
Where I aunswere, that wee hauehave our measure of Gods spirite, as the doctors had, although wee agree not with them in all interpretations, euen as Cyprian and Cornelius, were both indued with Gods spirite, although they agreede not in exposition and iudgement of the scriptures: Bristowe replyeth, that Cyprian was of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè, though explicitè, hee were of an erronious iudgement. And so is euerie Catholike erring of ignorance, in effect of the trueth with other Catholikes not erring, because hee q…e…ly. continueth in vnitie with them, and doth not obstinately holde his error against them. But so is not the case betweene the olde Doctors and vsus: for neither will wee bee reformed by them, neither woulde they be reformed by A…rius, Iouinianus &c. whom he calleth our forefathers.
If you hauehave no greater diuersitie then this, the case will be all one, for neither woulde Cyprian be reformed by Cornelius, neither woulde Cornelius bee re-Formed by Cyprian. But if the olde Doctors had heard as good reasons against prayer for the deade, of Catholikes in their time, as wee can make in this time, although they woulde not bee reformed by Aerius an heretike, yet charitie moueth vsus to thinke, they would hauehave yelded to the trueth reuealed by a Catholike.
Where I conclude, that the harde places of scripture▪ are best vnderstoode by conference of the easier, adding the ordinarie meanes of witt, learning, &c. adding that whosoeuer is negligent in this search may ea…ie bee deceiued: Bristowe noteth, a comfortable do…rine for the ignorant forsooth: As though any Christi… man or woman, ought to bee ignoraunt in the …riptures, so farre forth as they teache the way of sal…ation: otherwise it is no discomfort vntounto them, al…ough they vnderstande not euerie harde place of the …criptures.
After this he gathereth, that I place all in a mans owne …iligence to trust no man nor men, but to reade the scriptures, …onferre the places, and so gather the meaning by him selfe. So that with him, it is nothing that saint Augustine saith … Doct. Christ. libr. Chapter 6. where I receiued my …ule, Magnificè igitur & salubriter, &c. Magnificallye …herefore and wholesomely, the holy Ghost hath so …empered the holy scriptures, that with open places, hee …ight satisfie hunger, with darke places he might wype …ff lothsomnesse: for nothing in a manner is brought …ut of those obscurities, which may not bee founde in …ome other place most plainely spoken. It is nothing …hat I require the holy ghost the author of the scrip…ures, by earnest prayer to bee obtained of the interpretors. But if diligence may doe so much, hee tel…th vsus of the greate diligence vsed in the Popes semi…arie, for Englande, vnderunder the gouernement of Doctor Allen (which prooueth it selfe to bee a semi…arie of treason) in much reading and conferring of the scriptures, with all other helpes and meanes, whereby they must bee more certaine of trueth then wee, by mine owne rule. No, Bristowe, not they that reade the scriptures with such minde as you doe (without the extraordinarie grace of God) shall neuer come to the knowledge of the trueth, which they seeke not in them, but the confirmation of their preiudicated, erronious, and hereticall opinions.
There is a fragment of Clemens cited in the decrees. Dist. 37. Chapter Relatum, which sheweth the lette of your vnderstanding, and in the ende concludeth, Non enim sensi…, &c. you ought not to seeke a forrain and straunge sense, without the scriptures, that you may by any meanes confirme the same by the authoritie of the scriptures, but you ought to take the sense of truth out of the scriptures themselues. Concerning the bragge of Hebrewe and Greeke texts, to be proued against vsus, whē we see the booke, wee will shewe you our iudgement. In the meane time if the authour shewe not more witte in suppressing his labour, then you in vaunting of it before it come forth, I assure you he will shewe himself to the world to hauehave neither learning wisdome, nor honestic.
The 3. part.
What he meaneth by his onelyonly scripture: and that thereby he excepteth also against scripture.Bristowe.
I meane by onelyonly scripture, what soeuer is taught in plaine wordes, or may be gathered by necessarie conclusion, Fulke.which is as good as expresse wordes. For all trueth needefull for vsus to knowe (say I) may be prooued by scripture, either in plaine words or by necessarie conclusion, which is all one. Where I vrge Allen to shewe some sentence of scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the deade, Bristow saith, I confessed that I hauehave hearde of him diuerse sentences in the third chapter of his reply pag. 19. but reade that page who will, and thèy shall finde neuer a worde of such confession. The scripture it self, that I except against by calling for Canonicall scripture, is the booke of Machabees, which he promiseth to proue to be canonicall in the 11. Chapter where his arguments shall receiue aunsweres.
The 4. part.
What great promises he maketh to bring most euident scriptures against vsus, and also by scripture to proue his sense of the Bristowe.scripture: Triumphing also before the victorie, and saying that …dare not be tried by scripture, but reiect the Scriptures, where…n a fourefold offer is made vntounto him.
Before he rehearse my words of promise, he repeteth Fulke.…w precise he hath shewed me: first to admitte no eui…nce that they alledge, but scripture onelyonly, both in all …ntrouersies and also in the exposition of scripture: …at euidence I admit, and howe farre, hath beene shew… before, & more at large in my answere to his motiues …d demaunds. Secondly he saith, I admitte no scripture, …ich maketh so plainly with them, that I cannot auoid but by denying it to be canonicall, though I graunt …o hauehave the confirmation of ye same true Church, which …oueth me, as the holy ghost, to receiue the other scrip…res for canonical. This he speaketh for the Machabees …oke, which although I denie to bee canonicall, yet I …uer graunted to hauehave the confirmation of the true …urch, neither yet euer had it: againe where he saith, …e true Church moueth me, as the holy ghost, to re…ue the other scriptures for canonicall, hee doth mee …onge for the Church moueth not me as ye holy ghost, …t in a much inferior degree of mouing: ye holye Ghost … the author moueth mee, the true Church as a wit…sse.
Thirdly hee saith, I admit no scripture which I con…sse to be canonicall, vnlesse it make so expressely, so plainely, so manifestly, & so necessarily with them, that it cannot by any subtiltie be auoyded. This proposition being in the copulatiue is false, for I admit arguments, taken either out of ye expresse and plaine words of scripture, or of collection necessarily concluding. Let him make a newe logike, if hee will hauehave me admitte argumentes that doe not conclude necessarily.
Howe I obserue that law that I so rigorously exact, …e will examine in the next Chapter. Then fol…oweth a large rehersall of sentences wherein I affirme, …hat by the grace of God, I am able to proue eueryevery arti…e of faith that wee holde against the papistes, by ne…essarie argu…ents out of the scriptures. Bristowe saith in the next chapter, I shall hauehave ynowe, yet if … will, one article shall be this. That Antichrist is not one certaine person: That I shall easily proue thus: One certaine person is not many Antichrists, there ha… beene manie: therefore Antichriste is not one certaine person. The minor is saint Iohn. Epist. 1. Cap. 2. vers. 18. Againe, Antichrist is hee, whosoeuer denyeth that Iesus is Christ: One certaine person onelyonly denyeth not that Iesus is Christ: Therefore Antich rist is not one certaine person onelyonly, 1. Iohan. 2. vers. 22. Againe, EueryEvery spirite that confesseth not Iesus Christ to bee come in the fleshe, is the spirite of Antichrist: but this is not the spirite of one certaine person: ergo Antichrist is not one certaine person. The beast described Apocalips 13. and expounded Apocalips 17. is Antichrist, but manie kinges are the partes of that beaste, therefore Antichrist is no one certaine person. The whoore of Babylon whiche is expounded Apoc. 17. to be the citie of Rome, is borne by the beast beforesaide which is Antichrist, but the citie of Rome is not borne by one certayne person, therefore Antichrist is no one certaine person.
An other article that hee requireth me to proue is: That the Churches flying into the wildernesse, at the comming of Antichrist, is to become inuisible to the worlde: Although this article bee not a matter of faith, in controuersie betweene vsus, neither yet so affirmed of mee, as though to bee in the wildernesse, were nothing else, but to bee inuisible to the worlde: yet I will proue so much as I affirmed, that the Church being in the wildernesse, is inuisible to the worlde. The Church being where the multitude of wicked men are not, is to them inuisible: But the multitude of wicked men are not in the wildernesse: Therefore the Church being in the wildernesse is to the multitude of wicked men which is the world, inuisible.
Thirdly hee requireth mee to proue that the beginning of that comming and flying shoulde bee so soone after Christes passion. Before I proue this, it were reason you should tell how sone you meane, or I said, such …mming and fleeing shoulde bee. And the like I say …the continuance of so many ages and the ende so …g before Christes seconde comming. The holy …ost declareth Apoc. 12. ver. 5. that immediately after …rist was taken vp to God and his throne, the woman …hich is the Church, being persecuted by the dragon …d into the wildernesse. The time of continuance is …uratiuely & obscurely described by dayes, monethes, …d yeares, and generally by a time, times, and halfe a …e, which I neuer tooke vppon me to define howe …ng they should be, in account of our yeres, nor when … comming of Christ should be.
After this hee saith, I triumph in lying, when I af…me the Papistes dare not abyde the tryall of onelyonly …ipture, whereas he laboreth nothing so much in all …is Chapter, as to prooue, that the tryall of true do…ine ought not to bee onelyonly by scripture. And …terwarde hee sayth playnely, they refuse the tryall … onelyonly scriptures, but not by scriptures, no more …eu they refuse faith, because they refuse onelyonly faith. …here hee noteth mee for foysting in the worde one…, in the minor of this argument. The spouse of …hrist heareth the voyce of Christ and is ruled there…y: But the Romishe Church will in no wise bee …led onelyonly by the voyce of Christ: therefore shee is …ot of the spouse of Christ. I thought euerie reasona…le man woulde hauehave vnderstoode, onelyonly, in the maior …so, seeing she is no honest spouse that will bee ruled …y the voyce of an other man then her husbande, or …hat will bee ruled by her selfe, or take vppon …er to ouerrule her husbande, I added also in the …inor, which Bristow omitteth, that the Romish church …goeth a whoring after her owne inuentions, and com…mitteth grosse idolatrie. Ar. 99.
Where I charge the Popishe Church with blas…mie, for submitting Gods word to her owne iudgemēt: …he answereth it is al one as if I shold say, ye Apostles did blasphemously submit the scripture to the own will, b… cause they tooke vppon them to iudge of the true s… and because S. Peter sayde the vnlearned, being hi… selfe a fisherman, and vnstable, did misconster S. Pau… epistles &c. to their owne damnation: which is all … as if Bristowe coulde make vsus beleeue, that the Ap… stles tooke vppon them without the spirit of God, … contrarie to the scriptures in other places, to iudge … sense of any scripture, as the Popish Church doeth: … that Saint Peter, being an Apostle indued with so m… ny graces, was vnlearned, because hee had beene a … sherman.
Agayne where I sayde, the Popishe Church ma… festly reiecteth the whole autoritie of all the Cano… call scriptures, when shee affirmeth that no booke … holy scripture is Canonicall, but so far foorth as sh… will allowe it: This sayth Bristowe, is as though … Apostles and the Church after them, manifestly rei… cted the whole &c: because they made a Canon or C… nons, whereof the sayde scriptures were and are call… Canonicall, wherevppon him selfe also counteth th… as confirmed by the holy Ghost. That the scriptu… are called Canonicall of such a Canon it is not yet proued, for they may bee called the Canon and Canonicall, because they are the certayne rule to directe … matters of religion. But admitte the Apostles or … Church immediately after them, in hauing the spir… of discretion, made such a Canon to discerne true a…d diuine bookes from false and conterfeite books or writen by the spirite of man, what is this like to that bl… phemous authoritie which the Popishe Church chalengeth? that shee gaue authoritie to the scriptures and might as well hauehave receiued the Gospell of Bartholomewe as of Mathew, of Thomas as of Iohn &c: whereby it followeth, that by the like power shee may now reiect the Gospells of Mathewe and Iohn, and receiue the Gospels of Bartholomew and Thomas.
Where I sayde, the popish Bishoppes durst not abyde the conference at Westminster, first he quarelleth …my phrase, because I saide it was before the whole …rlde, as one that care not what I say. In deede I …de accompt of the iudgement of reasonable rea…s which woulde not take my wordes as though I …nt that all the whole worlde was gathered into …estminster Church: but that the conference and dis…tation was so open and so notorious that all ye world …ght hauehave knowledge of it.
Secondly hee calleth it a mocke conference, in com…rison of the councell of Trent, yet was there no or…r taken, but such as was well liked of by the Papistes …m selues, vntill they sawe their cause coulde carie no …dite.
Hee chargeth vsus for refusing to come to the councell … Trent, being so solemnly & honorably inuited, with …h safeconductes &c. To your safeconductes I aun…ere briefly the councel of Constance hath discredited …m for euer on your behalfes. And to your disputati… there offered, I say it was to no purpose, in such a …cke councell, where the Pope which is the princi…ll partie that is accused of heresie, shall be the onelyonly …dge and disposer of all thinges passed therein against … good examples, lawes, equitie and reason.
Where you make Allen such a great exhibitioner … our whole countrie, I will not quarell at your phrase, …t I maruell what great reuenewes hee hath in Flaun…rs that hee receyueth no exhibition as you say from any bodie.
But nowe to the fourefolde offer: wherein first you say, that the councell of Trent compted vsus subiectes … much as we compte you the subiectes of Englande. …e compt you as you shew your selues to bee, errant …aytors to Englande and the most godly prince of the …me, our soueraigne Lady Queene Elizabeth: as for …e conuenticle of Trent, we owe no more subiection …to it, them to the citie of Louaine.
The first offer is, that wee must proeure a safecon…uct for you from the Court in such forme as the coun…ll gaue vsus, and some of you will come ouer and ioyne with vsus in any conference that shall bee prescribed, according to the common lawes of a conference, … there you refer mee to your 19. and 1. demaunde, wheret… I hauehave made aunswere alreadie. But as concerning yo… request, that we shoulde procure safeconduct for yo… it is altogether vnresonable, because you are not on… heretikes, but also rebelles, conspirators and traytors, to whome no wise state will graunt safeco… ducte.
Your seconde offer, is that I shoulde ioyne wi… you vppon Collatio Carthaginensis, touching whic… you hauehave mine aunswere in my Retentiue against yo… moriues.
Your slaunderous and shamelesse complaynt, of o… Bishoppes and commissioners oppressing papistes with heauie y…ons, & butchers axes, ye whole world (if you w… giuegive me leaue to speake so) may knowe to bee false. Their gretest seueritie is lenity, if it be cōpared with popishe tyrannic, practised by your Bishoppes and bu… ning butchers in Queene Maries time.
Your thirde offer is, that I shoulde sende you so… of my fellowes or scholers (it is well you require n… me to come my selfe) which shall neede no other sa… conduct, but their quiet and modest behauiour: as the example of some …ugitiues hath prooued, all satisfied by your conference, and seeing and hearing your dayly reading and examination of the scirptures: I aunswere, if you coulde procure as good a safecondicte … Sygismond the Emperor gaue to Iohn Hus & Hiero… of Prage, I durst not aduenture to sende them (if h… any fellowes or scholers whome I might send) into the handes of Papistes and traytors: much lesse dare I sende or exhorte any, to goe vponupon your credite without safeconduct.
Your fourth offer is, to aunswere such scriptures as I hauehave alledged in both my bookes, in the next chapter, whereto you shall by the grace of God receiue a reply without any long delay.
Your translation of the bible that you make some …omise of, when it commeth foorth, we shall con…er of it. But where you say, Wee hauehave serued our …ntrie with the olde Testament of the late obstinate Iewes …welling, diuiding, and reading, it beeing it selfe but one verse … the whole Psalter, and ech other particular booke, and onelyonly …sonantes, and to bee rcade according to the tradition of the …thfull, which tradition you knowe by your authenticall tran…tions, and not of the incredulous and per…idious &c. you …rite both like an ignorant asse, and like an impudent …asphemer. For first where you say, ye vowelling, diui…ng, & reading is of ye late obstinate Iewes: you declare …neither you hauehave seene nor reade the auncient cōmen…ries of the Iewes that are extant, in which this vowel…ng, diuiding, and reading is contayned, nor once hauehave …ard of the most auncient trauell of the Mazorites …hich sone after the dispertion of the Iewes, with won…rful care and diligence, almost vntounto superstition hauehave …gistred the vowelling, diuiding, and reading, as it …as then receiued, euen from the Patriarkes and Pro…etes, of euerie verse and worde in the olde Testa…ent: in so much that if any letter or point by the …ult of the writer in the copies which they vsed were …ch as might easily be corrected by the Grammer, yet …ey durst not amend it, but hauehave euen so commended … vntounto vsus, as if there bee any learned in that tongue, of …hich you make some bragges, they are able to make report vntounto you. Again, what a monstuous thing is this, yt there should be but one verse or sentence in the whole Psalter, and in ech booke without my distinction or diuision: you might as well say there is but one worde in eueryevery booke. Againe where you say there bee onelyonly …onsonantes, although they that be exercised in the He…rewe tongue, and in the grammer thereof, can reade …ithout the vowelling pointes, yet they cannot alwaies …aue certaintie, seeing some words with diuerse points, …oe not onelyonly signifie diuerse thinges, but some …imes also contrarie thinges. Howe then coulde eue…ie godly man, exercise him selfe day and night in the …tudie of Gods lawe, according to his commandement, when it were not possible for one among an hundreth, to reade it without poyntes and distinctions of sentences. Our sauiour Christ in affirming that not so much … one iot or point of the law shal perish, doth sufficiently declare, that the lawe of God had vowelling & diuiding pointes as wel as letters consonants. As for your authenticall translations you prate of, we knowe that in m… ny places, they erre not onelyonly by missing the vowell…, but also by peruerting the consonantes. And if it b… so as you threaten in the seconde part of this Chapter, that one of your side shall shortely set foorth a booke, to shewe to the worlde, that the Hebrew and Greek… textes, in nothing make for vsus, against you, and in verie many thinges make for you against vsus, much mo…e plainely then your vulgar latine texte, wee hauehave not serued our countrie amisse in translation of the olde Testament according to the Hebrewe which maketh more for you then your owne vulgar latine, & so much as you say against vsus.
But nowe to all your foure offers, I will oppose one more reasonable, more easie, more indifferēt, which without daunger, without suite, without fraude, me thinkes in equitie, you may not refuse. And that is such as I made concerning mine aunswers vntounto your popish treatises, prefixed before my Retentiue againste your motiues, that if you will conclude anye controuersie of religion that is betweene vsus, in the stricte forme of Logicall argumentes (which is the best triall of trueth in matters of doubt) I will aunswere you as breefely, and either shewe plainely the inconsequens of your argument, or else by sufficient authoritie or conclusion of syllogisme, aduouch ye contradiction of your maior or minor, or both, if they both happen to be false. In the meane time if you had rather be respondent then opponent, there is a littell treatise called Syllogisticon that hath beene set foorth by Maister Foxe allmost twentie yeares agoe against transubstantiation and the carnall presence of Christes body in the sacrament of his supper, if your stomak serue you, you may endeuor …our selfe to aunswere that chalenge.