Rejoinder to Bristows Reply, Part 1 · Chapter 3 – Chapter 4
CAP. III.
That he confesseth the foresaide true Church to hauehave made so playnely with vsus, in verie many of the same controuersies of Bristowe.this time, that he is fayne to holde, that the true Church may erre, and also hath erred, but not his Caluinicall Church.
I confesse indeede, that the Popish Church holdeth some errors, that were helde within the compasse of Fulke.600. yeares, but them not verie many, nor the greatest controuersies, nor vniuersally helde in all that time, but in the later part of it onelyonly, nor with such poyson of pernicious errors, as they are now holdē by the Papists.
Also I confesse, that the true Church may erre, and hath erred, yea euen that Church whereof Caluin was a teacher, and that Caluin himselfe in some things both might erre and did erre, although Bristow like a scoffing parasite, doth except the same. But where he chargeth me to confesse, sometime, also the long continuing of the Church in incorruption, thereby to conuince me of contradiction: I answere, if he charge me with confessing the continuing of the Church in incorruption, for 600. yeares next after Christ, hee lyeth in his throat, I neuer confessed any such continuance: If I had affirmed that it continned after the first planting in incorruption for a long season, I might say without contradiction, that afterward it was corrupted with diuers errors, which I hauehave so proued, that Bristowe himselfe cannot deny them. But I must follow his sectiōs of this Chapter.
The first part that the true Church may erre.Bristowe.
I confesse the true Church may erre.Fulke.
The seconde part that the true Church did also erre: and in the Bristowe.same poyntes as we doe nowe erre in. 1. Where he chargeth them with many pointes together.
I confesse the true Church did also erre, and in some Fulke.of those pointes, that you nowe erre in, although they nothing so grosly as you. Those many abuses and corruptiōs which I confessed to hauehave entred into ye Church, immediatly after ye Apostles time, which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for Antichrist, I did not meane to bee many pointes of Poperie, and therefore are heere fraudulently foysted in, to vrge my confession, further then it stretcheth by my meaning. By Antichrist in deed I meane the Pope, as the chiefe head of that misshapen body, to whome I confesse, that the Arrian, Sabellian, Nestorian and al other old heresies, were a preparatiue, althogh, he directly acknowledge thē not, but hath his heresie, or rather apostasie, compacte of all errors, in that he is an aduersarie both to the person and office of our sauior Christ.
Particular errors, that I confesse to hauehave beene taken of the Gentiles, or heretikes, he numbreth 8. The signe of the crosse, from the Valentinians: Oblations for the dayes of birth and death, from the Gentiles: prescripte times of fasting, & immoderate extolling of sole life in the ministers of the Church, from the Montanistes, Manichees, Tacianistes: Prayer for the dead, of the Montanistes: purgatorie fier, from the Origenistes: Hierom almost condemning of seconde mariages, from Tertullian: The name of sacrifice, from the Gentiles: Also in the later writers, inuocation of sainctes, prayers for the dead, and diuerse superstitious and superfluous ceremonies, confessed by me to be maintained.
2 As touching Vigilantius and inuocation of Sainctes by it Bristowe.selfe.
I confesse that Ambrose, Augustine and Hierom Fulke.helde inuocation of Sainctes to bee lawfull, which is an error.
3 As touching Iouinian of fasting, of Virginities merite, of Bristowe.Votaries Mariage.
If Iouinian contemned Christian fastes, he erred, neyther Fulke.doe we take his part therein, nor yet in making mariage equall with virginitie, in all respectes. For the mariage of Votaries, Bristowe vrgeth me with no confession: but I charge him with a shameles falsification of my wordes, which he pretendeth to rehearse, as a great absurditie. Purg. 402. We neither boast vponupon Augustine nor Ambrose, when they dissent from our doctrine: Neither are ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius, when they agree therewith: But my wordes are these: Seeing God himselfe is the father of that doctrine, which wee hauehave receyued by his holy worde, we neither boast vppon Augustine nor Ambrose, when they dissent therefro: neither are ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius, when they agree therewith.
4 As touching Ceremonies.Bristowe.
I confesse they had many superfluous Ceremonies, yea such as the Papistes them selues hauehave not, for the Fulke.most parte.
5 As touching Purgatorie and prayer for the dead.Bristowe.
I acknowledge, that prayer for the dead is an auncient Fulke.error, the opinion of purgatory in ye Latine church, is not so olde, by many hundred yeares: in the Greke Church, it was neuer receiued.
What he saith of particular Doctors, and their particular Bristowe.times for it.
I say, that most of the particular Doctors, from the Fuke.time of Montanus, hauehave bene infected with the error of praying for the deade, but none to bee shewed before him. The time of the first Nicen Councell (Bristow saith) is inough for any Christian man. Who euer hearde such a blockish reason? If the Nicen Councel had decreed prayers for the dead to be vsed without the authoritie of the holy scriptures, it had not bene inough for any Christian man to beleeue. The Nicen Councel made the Bishop of Alexandria equal with the Bishop of Rome, which the Papistes will not allowe. cap. 6. The same councel decreed, that men should stand and not kneele in publike prayers, yet is no man bound to this decree, neither doe the Papistes themselues obserue it. Cap. 20. But my ignorance is noted of Bristow, for saying that superstition was riper in the Latine Church, where the seate of Antichrist was appointed to be set vp, not knowing that all the olde heresies, hauehave spronge of the Grekes: against whome were helde the first foure generall Councels. A pithie reason, shewing no lesse Logike then knowledge of the Churche storie. Foure heresies were condemned by foure councels, therefore all olde heresies sprong of the Grecians. But I will aske of Bristowe, whether Nouatus or Nouatianus captaine of the Nouatians, was of the Latine or Greeke Church? Iouinian & Vigilantius are counted of him to be as great heretikes, as Arrius and Macedonius, but whence did they spring, out of Greece or frō the Latines? What shall I name the Donatistes, Pelagians, Celestians, Priscillianistes, al which sprange out of the Latine Church? And yet it is true, that Vincentius affirmeth, that vntill the dayes of Stephanus, ye Bishoppes of the Romaine Church, had alwayes earnestly defended the integritie of religion, once receiued, which he speaketh not as a singular prayse of that Church only, for he saith of the same matter immediately before, Exemplis talibus plena sunt omnia, All places are full of such examples. And that which Bristow citeth out of Ruffinus in exp. Symb, that no heresie did spring at Rome, is to be vnderstode onelyonly of such heresies as he speaketh of before, against the danger of which, some clauses were added to the creede: For otherwise, Ruffinus could not forget what hee him selfe had translated out of Eusebius lib. 6. cap. 33. of Nouatus, which being a Priest of the Church of Rome, was author of the heresie of the Nouatians.
2 What he sayeth of the whole Church in some of those Bristowe.times.
I say the practise of prayer for the dead is not generall, …Fulke.because it is not to be founde in the most auncient times. Bristow asketh, if nothing be generall, but that I finde: as though he could find any thing, for 200▪ yeares, but in Tertullian the Montanist. But the later practise for places he sayeth is generall: if I should vrge him to proue it, he could not do it. I confesse it was common, but for all the later time, it was not generall. The Waldenses, for 500. of the last yeares, practised it not, and almost in eueryevery age, some are noted, which regarded it not, or denyed it.
3. To what Origen he confesseth the doctors to referre it, to witte, vntounto scripture and tradition of the fathers.Bristowe.
I confesse, that some of the fathers referre the custom Fulke.of praying for the dead, to the Scriptures, and some to the tradition of the Apostles, but neither of both truely. Bristowe compareth the case with fasting, wherof Augustine sayeth, that it is euidently commaunded in scripture, but the dayes not prescribed: So is prayer for the dead, but the dayes, times, and particular prayers, are referred to the tradition. I aunswere, when we see as good scripture for prayer for the dead, as wee see for fasting, we will say the cases are like.
How Tertullian denyed, prayer and oblation for the dead to be taken out of the scriptures, is referred to the ninth Chapter, where it shall be answered.
But he is fayne to denye (sayeth Bristowe) the most certeine workes of the Apostles schollers, Clemens Romanus, and Dionysius Areopagita, saying that we hauehave them of some counterfaiting knaue, &c. (quoting for my saying) Pur. 268. which I desire the reader to peruse, and tell mee how honest a man he is, that chargeth a man to say of ye works of Clemens and Dionyse, that which I speake onelyonly and expressely of the counterfeit epistles of Clemens. Concerning the change of the olde Liturgies: we shall heare more in the sixt Chapter.
4 He contraiewise feareth not, nor basheth not to say, they Bristowe.had it from the diuell and his lymmes.
I see no cause, why I should feare or bash to affirme, Fulke.that all errours came from the diuell, who is a lyer and the father of lyes: Neither is it any absurditie to saye, that the yerely oblations of thanksgiuing for the dead, are heathenish, as well as the oblations for the birthes. But it is an impudent slaunder, that he chargeth mine owne mouth to confesse, that the whore of Babylon is the church, at the farthest by S. Augustines time, which hath patched vp her purgatory, & sacrifices for the dead: for purgatorie and sacrifice for the dead, was scarse hatched in S. Augustines time, when Augustine him selfe confessed it might be doubted, whether there be any such purging fire or no.
5. As touching the Popes supremacy.Bristowe.
Concerning the Popes primacy, he chargeth mee to teach, that the Church vanished quite away, vponupon a souden, Fulke.when Phocas sold the primacie to Bonifacius, and yet no man then in the worlde, that went out from the Pope. The first point is a shamelesse slaunder, for I neuer taught that the church vanished quite away: the second is true, if it be rightly vnderstood: no man went from the Pope, as from a true member of the church, but the Pope rather went out of the church, into an antichristian tyrannie. But vnderstanding his saying to be, that no man departed from the Popes authoritie, it is vtterly false: for notwithstanding the sale of Phocas, the Greeke church neuer yelded to his supremacie. The church of Rauenna in Italy, long time after withstoode his tyranny, and was separated from him, in causa autocephalias, that shee would hauehave no head ouer her, but he… owne bishop, as the histories affirme. Bristowe, to excuse the Pope for doing contrarie to Gregories reproofe of the bishop of Constantinople, sayeth, that he neuer vseth the style of vniuersall bishop, but of s… seruorum, the seruant of seruants, as though it was for the bare style, and vsurpation of the title, that Gregorie was so earnest, and not for the vniuersall authoririe, which was claimed by yt style, in which respect Gregory of humilitie, the rest of his successors of hypocrisie, called them selues, seruants of the seruants of God.
Now at length Bristowe alledgeth three causes of this his tedious rehearsall of my sayings: first, that the reader may see, in how many points we dissēt frō them, whome we confesse to hauehave bene of the true church. I answer, so long as we agree in the foundation, we are all of one church. The second cause, that the reader may see, I confesse the Papistes to agree with them of the true church, in the same. A great glorie, that you agree with them in a fewe errors, and dissent in the most waightie matters of saluation. Thirdly, that I hauehave not, for these points, or any depēding of these, iust cause to denye the Papists the true church &c. If you erred onelyonly in these points, as they did, holding all other trueth, which those auncient fathers helde, wee woulde no more deny you to be members of the true church, than wee do them: but seeing beside these errors, you hold many blasphemous heresies, which they neuer helde, and vtterly deny the office of Christ, the foundation of our saluation, therefore wee iustly deny you to be of the true church of Christ. Neither is your excuse to be admitted, that you erre by authoritie of them, who if the trueth had bene as plainly reuealed vntounto them, out of the scriptures, as it is to you, would neuer hauehave so obstinatly defended their errors, but as they alwayes professed, yelded to the trueth, against custome, prescription of time, authoritie of councels, or any practise whatsoeuer.
CAP. IIII.
That he chargeth the sayde primitiue true church, with sundry Bristowe.errors wherewith he neither doeth, nor will, nor can charge vsus.
I affirme that diuerse godly fathers of the primitiue Fulke.church, held sundry errors, which the Papists holde not at this daye. Also that the auncient church erred in som points and practise, wherewith I will not charge the popish church, except they charge them selues. But that I should confesse (as Bristowe sayeth) That there may be a company which erreth, not onelyonly some principall members, but also the whole body of it, and which erreth obstinatly, and moreouer, which erreth the grossest errors that can be, & them … no small number, and yet the same company may be the tru… church. This is vtterly false, I neuer made such confession, neither can Bristow bring any wordes of mine, that sound to the same effecte: and therefore I here charge him before God and the worlde, for a shamelesse lyer, and an vngodly slaunderer. As for the errors wherewith I charge either the auncient writers, or the auncient church of Rome, do followe afterward discussed in the sixth Chapter.