Rejoinder to Bristows Reply, Part 1 · Chapter 11

Rejoinder to Bristows Reply · Part 1 · Chapter 11

p. 333The eleuenth Chapter.

What grosse contradictions Fulke is driuen to vtter against Bristowe.him self, while he struggleth against Gods Church, and the doctrine thereof.

As in his whole replie, he hath drawen almost all y^e arguments Fulke.and authorities, which I vsed in those two treatises, vntounto other endes and purposes, than for which I brought them: so to make a shewe of Contradiction, he rendeth a number of my sayings from their proper places, & compareth them together, to make such as know not what a Contradiction meaneth, to thinke that I affirme and denie meere repugnancies, without any possibilitie to reconcile them. But when they are considered according to the circumstance of the place, in which they are written, I hope there are not many of so meane iudgement, but they will acknowledge, they are rather the cauils of Bristowe, than the contradictions of Fulke.

The first Contradiction he noteth, that I say, Art 96. You are neuer able to aunswere the arguments that Peter was neuer at Rome. And thē where is the Apostolike see? &c. And thē on the conirarie side: the Church of Rome was founded by the Apostles, it was an Apostolike Church. For this he quoteth Purg. 361. 363. 374. To this I aunswere: In the first part he falsifieth my wordes, which are these: You are neuer able to answere the arguments, that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome, and then where is all your bragges of Apostolike see and succession? &c. The Church of Rome might bee an Apostolike see, though Peter was neuer there: but all your bragges of Apostolike see, and succession are vaine, if Peter was neuer Bishop of Rome.

The second: Those auncient Fathers did appeale to the iudgement of the Church of Rome against all heresies, and among the p. 334Catholike Churches, especially named the Church of Rome, because it continued in the doctrine of the Apostles, Pur. 373. 374. Contrat And by the way note here the bragge of the Romane faith Pur. 405. The former proposition is not mine, but patched by him, yet if I graunt the sense and wordes to be, as he hath forged them, they are not contradictorie to the latter proposition. For heretikes may bragge of that which Catholikes vse to doe: and yet not be Catholikes.

The thirde: It had by succession (speaking of the Church of R…) retained euen vntill their dayes, that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles. Pur. 374. Contra: She the Church of Rome hath had no orderly succession of Bishoppes, except so many schismes as they write of, be orderly successions. By the time of these Fathers (saith Bristowe) there had bene foure schismes. Ar. 85. Aunswere. In the first proposition I speake of Tertullians time and succession of doctrine, and name succession simplie. In the second proposition I speake of the whole time vntill our dayes, and of succession of persons, and of orderly succession: therefore no contradiction.

The fourth: It continued at that time in the doctrine of the Apostles, it retained by succession that faith which it did first receiue of the Apostles. Pur. 373. 374. Contra: he chargeth it with sundrie errors here cap. 3. & 4 namely P. Liberius with Arianisme. P. Innocentius for housling of Insantes, and eight Popes for the supremacie. I might aunswere, that the charging of the Popes, chargeth not the Church. but in the first proposition, I spake of the Church of Rome, in the time of Irenaeus, and Tertullian, holding the doctrine of the Apostles, contrarie to those heresies against which they write.

The fift: It was a true Church, and Apostolike Church, a faithfull Church, true and Apostolike faith and religion hauehave dwelled in her. Pur. 374. Ar. 79. Contra: The Church of Rome neuer preached the trueth. She neuer had since she first arose the ministring of sacraments according to Christes institution. The true Catholike Church hath ouerthrowen heresies of all sortes. But the Popish Church was neuer able to encounter with heretikes. Rome may be a nurse of Antichristi…ns, p. 335but neuer did good to Christians. I am able to proue that the primitiue Church affirmed your Church to be the Church of Antichrist. Ar. 85. 16. 106. 10. 27.

The latter part of this contradiction, with as many falsifications as there be quotations, doe sufficiently declare, that in all those places, I speake of the Popishe Church of Rome that nowe is, and not of the true Church which of olde time was at Rome. Yet to giuegive the reader a taste of his falsification of my wordes Ar. 106. which hee rehearseth thus. Rome may be a nurse, &c. in truth they are these: Rome which feedeth her babes with poison of mans traditions, in steade of the milke of Gods worde, and will rather see them famish than they should taste of Gods worde, may well bee a nurse of Antichristians, but neuer did good vntounto Christians.

The sixt: The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie, whereof the whore beareth a cuppe full, out of which all nations hauehave dronke. Ar. 102. 38. Euen from the Apostles …ime the diuell neuer left to set in his foote, for his sonne Antichristes dominion, vntill he had placed him in the temple of God, and prepared the wide world for his walke, and then came the generall defection. Pur. 287. Contra: all nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes. For it hath bene often saide, the Greeke Church and (all) other Orientall Churches (of Assa and Africa) neuer receiued the Popish religion, in many chiefe points, and specially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie, they will not vntounto this day acknowledge her doctrine to be Catholike, nor her authoritie to be lawfull. Ar. 38. 16 33. 34.

These places being both full of falsifications, yet if they had bene in so many wordes set downe by me, imploy no contradiction. For it may be, that all n…tions, (meaning as the scripture, whose wordes I cite Apoc. 18. not all of euerie nation, but some of all nations) hauehave dronke of the whores cup, and yet neuer receiued her religion in al things. And the general defection is meant of that great apostasie that S. Paul speaketh of, in which the greatest number shall fall from Christ, though they p. 336fall not all to the Pope. For many are fallen to Mahomet, many reuolted to idolatrie, many to other heresies beside Poperie.

The 7. The religion of Papistes came in, and preuailed in the yere of our Lord 607. in which the Pope first obtained his Antichristiā exaltatiō to wit, Boniface y^e third of Phocas the Emperor, that the Bishop of Rome should be called and counted the heade of all the Church. Ar. 36. Contra in the same place: Because you speak of the first entring of Popish religion, which dependeth chiefly vponupon the Popes authoritie: it first beganne to aduaunce it selfe in Victor, about the yeare of our Lord 200. What contradiction is here? Popish religion in one piece first beganne to aduaunce it selfe Anno 200. and after came in and preuailed, Anno 607.

The 8. The Popish Church is a puddle of all false doctrine and heresie. Euen in the Apostles time, and from that time, in all times, when so euer, and where so euer was any piece of myste or darke corner, there were the steppes of your walke. It may be a shame for you Papistes, to leaue and condemne for heresie, all that is true in the Fathers writings, and agreeable to the scriptures. Ar. 102. Pur. 287. 238. Contra: Where he dictinguisheth the religion of the papistes, from the great heresies, and open aduersaries, that sought to beate downe the chiefe foundations of Christian faith, as the Valentinians, Marcionistes, Manichees, Arrians, Sabellians, and such like monsters. Ar. 43. He falsifieth my distinction, which is not of the religion of the Papistes, but of the first beginnings of such errors in the time of the auncient Fathers, which among the Papistes are growne to be in manner as great as the monsters of Valentinians, Marcionistes, &c. And yet there can be no contradiction, where the subiectes of both propositions are not all one. But here the one is of the Popish Church (which is a member of the malignant congregation of Satan) the other is of the religion of Papistes. The Papistes by communion of the diuels Church, communicate with all heresies.

The 9. We say not that the religion of Papistes came in soudenly, but that it entred by small degrees at the first: and therefore …a…esse espied by the true Pastors being earnestly occupied against great heresies, not preached against, winked at, because it had a shewe of Pietie and Charitie, and at length allowed of Augustine and others, who followed the common errors of their time. Specially when a generall defection, and departing from the faith was foreshewed, what marueile were it, if none colde preach against it as it first entred? Ar. 43. 36. 38. Contra: The Church of Christ in such places as she is, suffereth no man damnablie abusing her religion, without open reprehension. Ar. 92. 36. 37. The former proposition hath manifest forgeries, as that I should say, The religion of papistes was not preached against &c. Winked at &c. Allowed of Augustine &c. For I neuer said so of the whole religion of papists, but of some fewe errors budding vp in antient times. But both Ar. 36. where I aske What maruaile &c. as an obiection, I doe neuerthelesse shewe who preached against the vsurpation of the Bishop of Rome, which yet tended not to a damnable error; & Ar. 38. I affirme, there was both preaching, teaching, and writing against it.

The 10 The true, catholike Church hath alwaies resisted all false opinions, contrarie to the word of God, as her dewty was, and fought against them, and obteined the victorie, and triumphed ouer them. Ar. 11. Contra: In those antient times they of the true Church, did not alwaies weigh what was most agreeable to the word of God: but if heretikes had any thing that seemed to hauehave a shew of pietie or charitie, they would drawe it into vse. So they tooke into the Church of Christ, many abuses and corruptions, vntill at the length, An. 607. the religion of the papists preuailed. And since that time that diuelish heresie hath alwaies increased in error vntill the yeare 1414. Pur. 419. Ar. 35. 36. The former proposition is directly spoken and meant by me, of heresies against the truth, and other articles of faith: That which is mine in the latter patchery and falsification, is spoken of small errors and idle ceremonies.

The 11 That blasphemous heresie of purgatorie, which is most blasphemous against Christ, against the blood of Christ, against his merites and satisfaction for our sinnes, and against Gods vnspeakable mercies: and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all them that beleeue it, nothing conuenient for the disciples and members of Christ. No suffrages were made for the dead by the p. 338Apostles or their lawfull successors. To the reader, Pur. 26. 166; 184. 177. 269. 362. 363. 419. 186. Contrà: here. cap. 3. he confesseth that the fathers held it, and yet notwithstanding, that they were members of the true Church (cap. 2.) and held the foundation of Iesus Christ (cap. 5.) & all the substance of true doctrine: And also that they did inuocate Saintes: denying in other places that such be true Christians. The like of fasting. Pur. …93. 405.

I neuer confessed those godly fathers to hold purgatorie in such blasphemous sense, as the papistes doe, nor yet prayer for the dead, or inuocation of Saintes. By fasting, I knowe not what he meaneth, for in the page, whereto he sendeth me 141. is no such matter spoken of, nor fasting once named.

12 The opinion of Purgatorie and satisfaction of sinnes after this life, is the verie doctrine of licentiousnesse, to maintaine wicked men in their presumptuousnesse. For what hast will they make to amendment and newenesse of life, when they hauehave hope of release after their death? Pur. 51. 26. 166. 177. 184. Contra: As Saint Augustine saith, it is but for small faultes: or as M. Allen saith, for great faultes that by penance are made small. And is God such a mercifull father to punishe small faultes so extremely in his children, whom he pardoneth of all their great and heinous sinnes? Pur. 448.

The latter part of this pretēsed cōtradictō is not mine, but Allens assertion, which I rehearse to shew the absurditie of his expositiō of the happy rest promised. Apo. 13.

13 How long soeuer the true Church were hidden, whether i… were a 1000. years, or 2000. yeares, this is certaine, that out of this Church none could be saued. Ar. 73. Contra, here cap. 5. he counteth it ynough, if the faith of their saluation were in the onelyonly foundation Iesus Christ, and that in such a sense as agreeth to men indeed out of the Church.

The whole faith of their saluation is in the onelyonly foundation Iesus Christ, in such such sense as I speake cannot be out of the Church.

14 They which hold the foundation, that is Christ (to wit the Article of Iustification by the onelyonly mercy of God, and of the onelyonly sonne of God) are doubtlesse members of the true Church of Christ. p. 339Ar. 61. …4. Pur. 2…8. Contra: here cap. 10. where he saith, that the Anabaptists are abhominable heretikes, and that they are not Protestāts: who yet do hold that article i…mp as the Protestāts do.

It is a loudly, and neuer saide of me, that the Anabaptists do hold that article iump as the protestants.

15 A generall departing from the faith, was foreshewed, and it was fulfilled An. 607. Contra: The Church was neuer lost (neither when the departing was generall) but hidden (in the wildernesse, that is) from the eyes of the world. She is to this day preserued, and shalbe to the worlds end. Christ hath neuer wanted his Spouse in earth, he hath euer beene a head without a body. Ar. 36. 38. Ar. 71. 78. 79. 80.

The generall departing from the faith, was not of all persons, but of most in all nations: and therefore the Church neuer failed.

16 The primitiue Church of the Apostles hath continued vntounto this day by succession not of persons and places, but of the doctrine, faith, and trueth. These verte wordes conteine a manifest contradiction. For how can a Church, or doctrine, faith, and trueth continue, but in persons and places? in so much that he saith also: We doubt not, but God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers, that hauehave instructed his Church in the necessarie pointes of Christian Doctrine. Ar. 2. 96. 26. 27.

These wordes conteine no contradiction. For the Church may continewe in persons and places, although not by continual succession of persons in the same places. Bristow forgetteth his rules of contradiction, opposing cōtinuance by succession of persons and places, to continuance in persons and places.

17 The true Church of Christ hath alwayes stoode stedfast & inseparable from Christ her head, though the blinde world, when they see her, will not acknowledge her to be his Spouse, but persecute her, as if she were an adultresse, Contra: in the same place: The true Church vnderunder the Emperours Constantinus, Constans, and Valens, was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius. And in another place: The visible Church may become an adultresse, and be diuorsed from Christ. And so is that faithfull Church of Rome become an harl….

p. 340This contradiction is made vp with a falsification of my wordes: The true Church vnderunder the Emperours Constantius, &c. For I say not, the true Church, but speake generally of the Church, which suffered persecution vntill Cōstantine, which was y^e visible Church, vnderunder which name many heretikes were persecuted. Visible Church is not alwaies the true Church.

The 18 The true Church consisting of Gods elect, and the liuely members of the body of Christ, shall neuer commit such adulterie &c. But the visible Church may separate her selfe from Christ. As though there were an other Church besides the visible Church, and so two churches. Contra: Wheresoeuer the Catholike Church be in partes, it is one body of Christ.

There are not two Churches, but one. The catholike Church is alwaies inuisible: the militant Church on earth, which is a part thereof, is to the world sometime visible, and sometimes not seene of the world.

The 19 Anno. 607. the Church fled into the wildernes, that is, out of the sight and knowledg of the world, there to remaine a long season: where all this while God hath preserued her vntill such time as he thought good, now in our dayes to bring her out of her secret place in the wildernes, into the open sight of the world againe. Ar. 16. 27. 79. 36. Contra: Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching & ministring of the sacramētes, yea and so boldly, that it cost many of the chalengers their liues: As Berengarius, Brumo, Marsilius de Padua, Ioannes de Gaudano. Ioannes Wickleue, Waldo, Ioannes Hus, Ieronymus de Praga, &c. Ar. 77.

The onelyonly shew of contradiction, is a falsification of of Bristow, reporting my wordes, Where all this while &c. As though the Church hath alwaies bin so hidden, y^e no members thereof might appeare. But those wordes be of his own cauillous cōpositiō, & not of my writing. But here beside the contradiction, he noteth two thinges against me, One, that it cost not all these, yea, verie fewe of these there liues. Neither did I say, it cost al, but many, to iustifie this multitude: Iohn Hus and Hierom are expressed beside many hundrethes that are conteined vnderunder &c.

The other matter is that neither these before appearing, were secret protestans, but open papistes. Belike he would beare vsus in p. 341hand, that their open appearing & conuersiō from popery, was both in a moment of time. But what if some of them were first papistes, and afterward returned from popery to y^e catholike Church, as Hus & Hierom, being conuerted by certaine Englishmen, yet weere they not al such, for Waldo was neuer any papist, but a christian Catholike, who seeing the horrible enormities of the Romish synagogue, openly with many thowsands, I renoū ced her communion, when she would not be reformed at his godly preaching.

20 To bring her againe into open light. Which is now brought to passe in our dayes. Ar, 16. 9…. Contra: from the yere of our Lord 1414. (being the time of the Councell of Constance) the bright beames of the Gospell hauehave shined in the world. Ar. 36.

I see no signe of cōtradictiō in these words, except these propositiōs be cōtradictorie: The bright beames of y^e sun do shine in y^e morning before y^e sun be ful risen: &, y^e same is seene in opē light after he is fully risē aboue y^e earth.

The 21 The reuelation of Antichrist (with the Churches flight into the wildernes) was An. 607. when Bonifacius the 3. &c. For vntill then the mysterie of iniquitie was preparing for his reuelation & cōming, & for the generall defection. Ar. 38. 36 16. Contra: She hath not decaied there in the wildernes, but beene alwayes preserued, vntill God should reueile Antichrist, which is now brought to passe in our dayes. Ar. 16.

The reuelation of the mystery of iniquitie was, when Antichrist himselfe did opēly shew that iniquitie which before was not throughly discouered. God reueileth Antichrist, when he openeth vntounto men his horrible wickednes, which to them were vnknowne. A wonderfull contradiction of Antichrist reueiling himselfe, and God reueiling Antichrist.

The 22 The Churches being in the wildernes, was, to be out of the sight & knowledg of the wicked. Ar. 27. 95. Contra, speaking of the same space, She was narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long seasō. Againe: Although it were knowne to the papists, yet it was in Italie when Marsilius of Padua preached: in Fraunce, when Waldo: in England, when Wickleue: in Bohemia, when Hus, and Ierom of Prage did florish. Why? all these were p. 342well knowne to the papistes. As though the Church could not be persecuted in her mēbers, except she were al knownē, or knowne to be the Church by her persecutors.

23 A rule of y^e Logiciās: No man knoweth a relatiue, except he know the correlatiue thereof: Therefore though Christ had a body in earth. yet could it be known of none, but such as knew Christ the head of that body, of whom the papistes were ignorant. A 1. 80. Contra: Our Church is now againe brought to light and knowledge of the world. Ar. 96. So that now belike the papistes know Christ, or the Logicians rule is verified onelyonly for the time of the Churches being in the wildernes, according as in other places he moderateth the matter, saying: We beleeue that the Church is not alwayes knowne to the wicked vponupon earth. Pur. 150. Ar. 77. 79, 80.

Whether the papistes know Christ or no, certaine it is, they will not acknowledg him, who came into the world, which was made by him, and yet the world knew him not, whom they would not acknowledge. The papists cannot say, they know not our Church, although they will not acknowledge her to be the true Church, and so my saying is true, that our Church is brought into knowledg euen of y^e world of papistes. The rules of Logiciās are alway true, but they are often ill kept by popish sophisters, as y^e rules of cōtradictiō here by Bristow.

24 We beleeue that the vniuersal Church is not seene at all of men, because it is in heauen Pur. 405. Ar. 95. 82. 74 80. Contra: Our Church, when it was most hidden, might rightly be called Catholike (that is vniuersall) &c. Here Cap. 10. Dem. 6: And whereas you say, that no man aliue could name the place where it was, you make an impud…nt lye: For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enimies thereof, yet was it knowen to the true members thereof.

I see no opposition, except you will say, there is no knowledge but by bodilie sight, or that some members of the Church, may not be seene in earth, because Ierusalem the mother of vsus all, is aboue.

25 And as for our Mother Church is no certaine place, or cō panie of men in any one place vponupon earth, but Ierusalem which is aboue, is mother of vsus all. Pur. 377 Contra: That no man aliue could name the place where it was, is an impudent lie. It was in p. 343Italie, when Marsilius preached, &c. Vt suprà in contrad. 22. Christe hath neuer wanted his spouse in earth, though the blinde worlde when they see her, will not acknowledge her to bee his spouse, but persecute her as if she were an adultresse. She was knowne to them that were her children. The church of Christ is the nurse of Christians. Ierusalem that is from aboue, is mother of vsus all. Ar. 95 79 82. 106.

Those are as great contradictions as these. Bristowe is at Louane. Bristowes foote is in his shooe. The whole Church and mysticall body of Christ is in heauen: therfore some members and parts therof can not be on earth.

26 It is not called Catholike, because it should be eueryevery where. For that it neuer was, nor neuer shall be. Ar. 95. Contra: It should ouerflowe and fill all the world with righteousnesse. Esai. 10. That God hath an holie vniuersall congregation, it is necessarie to beleeue. It is dispersed in many places ouer all the world. Ar. 73. 83. 80.

It is not eueryevery where: and it is in many places: be not contradictorie. And the remnant may ouerflowe and fill the world with righteousnesse, as Esai saith: although it fill not eueryevery place and person thereof, nor most places and persons alwaies.

27 Christes church is nowe by GOD enlarged further than the Popish church. Ar. 12. 3. 69. Contra: It is but a small flocke in comparison of the malignant church (of Antichrist) whose number is as the sand of the sea. Apoc. 20.

The Popish Church is not so large as the malignant Church of Sathan by many partes, which containeth all the wicked of the world, the name of Antichrist is added by Bristow. Yet are there more Antichristes than y^e Pope, although he be the chiefe y^t sitteth in the temple of God.

28 It is a good argument, that the Popish church is not the church of Christ, because it was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp: in so much that you can name the notable persons in all ages, in their gouernement and ministerie, and especially the succession of the Popes, you can rehearse in order vponupon your fingers. And it were a token that our church were not the true church, if wee could name such notable persons in their gouernement and ministerie. Ar. 27. Contra: Such officers as are necessarie p. 344for the conseruation of Gods people in the vnitie of faith and the knowledge of Christe, our Church hath neuer lacked, notwithstanding that through iniurie of the time (because our Church had not so many Registers, Chroniclers, and remembrauncers) the remembraunce of all their names is not come vntounto vsus. For the authoritie of the Bible, we hauehave the testimonie of the true Church in all ages. Our congregation hath euer had possession of the Scriptures. GOD hath neuer suffered the true Church to be destitute of the necessarie vse of the Scripture: Which the Popish Church hath so kept in an vnknowne tongue, that the people could hauehave no vse, much lesse the necessarie vse thereof. The Church of GOD hath alwayes had Schooles and Vniuersities for the maintenance of godly learning. The true Catholike Church hath alwayes resisted all false opinions. It was neuer so secrete nor hidden, but it might be knowne of all those that had eyes to see it. That a thousand yeares there was gathering together for preaching, ministring, and correcting. God hath alway stirred vp some faithfull teachers. The Church hath neuer bene afraide to doe her office towardes her children and true members, in teaching, exhorting, comforting, confirming, &c. Ar. 28. 27. 9. 6. 5. 52. 11. 74. 75. 26. 82.

In these large propositions, howesoeuer they be patched, I see no contradiction. Except these be contraditories: The Church was sometime hidden from her enemies: and yet where shee was gathered, did performe all duties to her friendes and children. It was not seene of the blinde, but it was seene of them that had eies.

29 The Popish Church was neuer hidden since it first sprang vp. Ar. 27. Contra: The Church of Rome hath not alwayes practised open preaching, and neuer preached the worde of trueth. Ar. 85.

There was small preaching before the orders of begging friers began to supply the want of the pastors. And yet the popish Church glistered in her whorish pompe.

30 Touching the text Matthewe 5. of a citie built vponupon an hill, which can not be hidden, after he hath giuen his sense of it, he saith: Hereby it appeareth howe fondly some Papistes (and some of the Doctors in their errour) doe expound this place to groue, that the Church must alwayes bee visible. Ar. 100. p. 345Contra: euen in his owne exposition there: It is properly meant of the Apostles and their su…essours the Ministers of the Church: he teacheth them aboue all other men, to looke diligently to their life and conuersation: for as they excell in place and dignitie, so the eyes of all men are set vponupon them. As a citie builded vponupon an hill, must needes be seene of all that come neare it, so they being placed in so high an office and dignitie, shall be noted and marked aboue all other men. One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men, and can not be hidden: and yet the whole Church, and so also that part, is not alwayes visible, but may be hidden, and was hidden for a thousand yeares. So he saith.

The whole Church, which is the mysticall body of Christe, is inuisible. Although the ministers of the Church and their conuersation, can not be hidden from the members of eueryevery particular Church.

31 The true Church decaied immediatly after the Apostles time. And so the errour of praying for the dead was continued from a corrupt state of the church of Christ, vntounto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist. Contra: The Primitiue pure church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ. Againe: Anno 607. The church fled into the wildernesse, there to remaine a long season, where she hath not decayed, but bene alwaies preserued, vntill God should bring her againe to open light nowe in our daies. The true church shall neuer decay, but alway reigne with Christ. The false synagogue shall' daily more and more decay, vntill it be vtterly destroied with Antichrist the head thereof. If this be not contradiction, it is much worse, to wit, that Luther and his Apostles hauehave giuen vsus a visible church which shall not decay, Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vsus a visible church which did decay, yea and plainely depart away into Apostasie.

The places shew that decaying hath double vnderstanding. The true Church soone after the Apostles, decayed in syncerity, yet neuer decayed nor shall decay in continuance. Luther gaue no Church; but euen that Church which is best lightened by his preaching, may decay in sincerity, if the pastors be not diligent to teach the word of God simply.

p. 34632 At eueryevery word hee calleth the Pope Antichrist, and the head of the malignant church. Contra: in some places he maketh two distinct heades and their distinct companies. As, when Mahomet in the East, and Antichrist the Pope in the West, seduced the world, then the church fled into the wildernesse. Againe: The Popish church is not in eueryevery part of the world: for Mahomets sect is in the greatest part. Ar. 16. 65.

I call the Pope Antichrist oftentimes: but that I call the Pope head of the malignant Church, though Bristowe saith I doe it at eueryevery word, yet he is not able to note one place where I doe it, rather Bristowe maketh a flat contradiction in saying of me, At eueryevery word he calleth the Pope the head of the malignant church. Contra: In some places he maketh two distinct heades, and their distinct companies.

33 That the true church may erre, and hath erred, notwithstanding any priuiledge it hath by Gods spirit, we heard him say, cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie. Neither hath the spirit of God failed to leade her into all trueth. There be some prerogati…es of Gods spirite, that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect, as the gift of vnderstanding, the gift of faith, &c. And these the spouse of Christe hath neuer wanted. True faith, &c. might be signes of the true church. The spouse of Christe heareth the voice of Christe, and is ruled thereby. The church of GOD is the piller and stay of truth, so called, because that where so euer the church is, either visible or inuisible, there is the trueth. Saint Paule by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers, howe great a burthen and charge they sustaine, that the trueth of the Gospell can not be continued in the world, but by their ministerie in the church of God, which is the piller and stay of truth. This their duetie true preachers considering, are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth. As our church is the piller and stay of trueth, so is she also the house of trueth, which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ, and his most holy Scripture, in which this trueth is signed and testified. We require you to beleeue the true Catholike church onelyonly: and immediatly againe to the contrarie: We require you not to beleeue any one companie of men, more than an other. Ar. 82. 81. 93. 99. 62. 77. 100. 108. 62.

This contradiction is easily reconciled. The true p. 347Church may erre, but not in any point, that is necessarie to euerlasting saluation. We require men to beleeue the true Catholike Church only, not for the companie, but for the trueth.

34 The error (of Purgatorie and praying for the deade) is continued from a corrupt state of the church of Christe, vntounto a plaine departing away into the church of Antichrist. Contra: The t…ue and onelyonly church of God is so guided by Gods spirite, and directed by his word, that she can not induce any damnable error to con…n…: No, nor suffereth any man dānably abusing her religion, without open reprehension: and yet Purgatorie, &c. came in with silence.

The error of praying for the dead, was not damnable, while it continued in the Church of Christ, the Church of Antichrist by derogating full satisfaction from the bloud of Christ, hath made it damnable.

35 The church of Christ hath of the holie Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfets, and the worde of GOD of infallible veritie, from the writing of men which might erre. She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians. We persuade vsus of the authoritie of Gods booke, because we hauehave most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it, with the testimonie of the true church in all ages. Ar. 5. 4. 9. Contra: All other writings are in better case than the Scriptures are with you. For other writings may be counted the workes of their authours, without your censure: the holy Scripture may not be counted the worde of God, except you list so to allow it. Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers: The holie Scriptures with you houe not credite according to the authoritie of God the authour of them, but according to your determination. Pur. 219.

Here is no shewe of contradiction, but a wretched begging of the principle, that the Popish Church is the true Church of Christ. Of such contradictions you may make not 50 but 500000.

36 Those that by true Christians hauehave bene called and counted for heretikes, hauehave proued so in deede. Ar. 65. Contra: This Demaund hath a false principle: that the church ought to be a Christian mans (onelyonly: it is not in Doctor Allens principle) p. 348stay in al troubles and tempestes.

The first proposition is an Ironicall imitation of Allens absurd proposition, and not an absolute assertion of mine.

37 And therefore the Papistes, being called and counted heretikes of true Christians (that is, of the Protestantes) without doubt are heretikes in deede. Ar 65. Contra. He is a foolish Sophister, that reasoneth from names to things: as you doe most vainely and childishly. Ar. 66.

The former proposition, is the conclusion which I retort vponupon Allens principle, that whosoeuer by true christians are called heretikes, do proue so in deede.

38 There is neuer heresie, but there is as great doubt of the church, as of the matter in question. Ar. 86. Contra: Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the church, tooke no hold of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it, but by their owne confession and graunt, of that prayer to be godly, and them to be of the church that so prayed. But now the controuersie is not onelyonly of the substance of doctrine, but of the church it selfe also. The Donatistes challenged the church to themselues. Pur. 367.

Here is not so much as any shadowe of contradiction, for in the heresie of the Donatists, the chiefest controuersy was of the Church: as for the prayer of the Church, they vsed it themselues as well as the true Catholikes, out of which prayer Augustine gathereth an argument against them.

39 But for the chiefe pointes of christian religion, and the foundation of our faith, that is, Reall presence, &c. the most approued writers are vtterly against you, and therefore can not be of your church. Contra: But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians (as it pleaseth you to call them) are of one true church, although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament, the one assirming a Reall presence, the other denying it.

The contradiction is easily auoided, by shewing, that the reall presence among a number of thinges in that place rehearsed, may be one chiefe point of religion, and yet not a foundation of our faith. For I say the auncient fathers agree with vsus in the chiefe points of religion, and the foundation of our faith, which seeing the Lutherans p. 349hold with vsus, the dissent in one chiefe point of religion, can not disseuer them from the Church, and yet they dissent not vntounto idolatrie, as the Papists doe. And where Bristow slandereth mee to say, that I count the errors of some of y^t latter sort of old fathers (in honoring reliques inuocation of Saints, merits, traditions, vnwritten verities, images of the crosse) to be contrary to the foundation, he is able to shewe no place where I so affirme. And albeit they did so earnestly maintaine some of those errors, that they condemned by their priuate sensure, the contrary truth, for heresies: yet it followeth not that they were heretikes. For it is one thing to hold an error earnestly, an other to holde it obstinatly, so that he is condemned of his owne conscience, when he will not yeeld to the manifest truth plamly proued out of the worde of God.

40 We knowe that Luther did not obstinately and maliciously erre in any article of faith, concerning the substance of religion. Luther, Caluine, and Bucer, shall come with Christ to iudge the world. As for Illyrians, if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus, they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament, and differ onelyonly in ceremonies, which can not diuide them from the faith. Ar. 10. 61. Pur. 403. Contra: What Flaccius, or any such as he is, hath saide, neither doe I knowe, neither doe I regard, let them aunswere for them selues: But whereas you charge M. Caluine, &c.

Because I knowe not how Illyricus, and such contentious persons as he, expoundeth the annointing in Saint Iames, but referre them to aunswere for them selues, therefore I speake contrary to my selfe, where I say they differ not in faith, from the Lutherans.

41 There is neuer heresie, but there is as great doubt of the church as of the matter in question. Therefore only the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience. Ar. 86. Contra: The Church is the …ay of trueth. If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church, might take place, it would serue you both for a sword and a bucklar. The church saith it, and we are the church. Therefore it is true. Pur. 367.

It seemeth Bristowe is beside himselfe, in coyning of contradictions. These words, The Church is the stay of p. 350truth, for which he quoteth Pur. 367. are not mine in that place, but his owne addition: although in other sense I confesse the Church is the stay and piller of truth, not that all is true which is alwaies in the Church, but that truth can not be preserued on earth by the Church.

42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth against the Pelagians, one (though the feeblest of an hundred) is, that their heresie was contrarie to the publique praiers of the church. Contra: All other persuasions set aside, hee prouoketh onelyonly to the Scripture, to trie the faith and doctrine of the church, namely in beating downe the schisme of the Donaistes, and the heresie of the Pelagians. Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe, in shewing the reason whie he argued against the Donatistes of only Scripture, but against the Pelagians of the churches praiers also: The Pelagians graunted them to be of the church that so praied. And therefore when Augustine had to doe with the Donatistes that challenged the church vntounto them selues, he setteth all other trials aside, and prouoketh onelyonly to the Scriptures.

Let the readers iudge: for I can not imagine where there be should be so much as the shadowe of a contradiction, gathered out of these wordes, except he meane, that he which prouoketh onelyonly to the scriptures, may not vse an hundreth argumentes out of them, yea or many persuasions beside the scriptures, and yet stand onelyonly vponupon the auctority of the scriptures.

43 We stand for autoritie only to the iudgemēt of the holy scriptures. Pu. 432. Contra: The ground that we hauehave to persuade vsus of y^e authoritie of gods booke, is, because we hauehave most stedfast assurāce of Gods spirit, for the autoritie of that booke, with the testimonie of the true church in alages. The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of God, from the writings of men. The primitiue churches testimonie of the word of God we allow and beleeue. You should bring a great preiudice against vsus and passing wel prouide for the credit of your cause, & the discredit of ours, if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure church for the space of a hundreth yeares after Christe, or something out of any Authenticall writer, which liued within one hundred yeares after the Apostles age. Ar. 9. 5. 10. Pur. 364. 331. Ar. 21. 39. 42.

p. 351The first proposition (as in the place quoted is manifest) is spoken of questions of doctrine: and not of our persuasion of the scriptures to be the word of God. The last sentence, You should bring, &c. being patched out of two places of my booke, Pur. 364. and 331. are not contradictory to the first proposition: for although we stand for auctority onelyonly to iudgement of the holy scriptures, yet we are content to giuegive you this aduantage against vsus, if you can bring any thing out of those eldest writers for Purgatory or prayer for the dead.

44 Saint Paul 1. Cor. 11. declareth without colour or couerture, the onelyonly right order of ministration. Contra, in the next line: I knowe the Papistes will flee to those wordes of the Apostle, The rest I will set in order when I come. That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelinesse, and therefore (say we) of the order of ministration. Pur. 362.

In rehearsing my wordes, he leaueth out fiue lines of my saying, betwene the words Couerture, and The onelyonly right, &c. which declare that I speake of the ess…ntiall order of ministration, against Allen which affirmeth oblation of the hoast for the quicke and the dead, both generally and particularly, and a solemne prayer for all departed in Christ, to be necessary parts of the order of ministration of that Sacrament.

45 The olde Doctors neuer heard Purgatorie named, nor praier for the deade. Pur. 438. Contra: About S. Augustines time, the name of Purgatorie was first inuented. And long afore that also, Montanus had in all points the opiniō of the Papists, &c. Here cap 3 pag 23. And yet againe, Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blinde error without a head. Pur. 356.

My wordes are of the heresie of Purgatory, and my meaning of those olde Doctors, in comparison of whom Saint Augustine is but a punie, being younger almost by 300. yeares, in whose time although the name of Purgatory were inue…ted, yet the heresie was elder in Montanus. How prayer for the deade came into the Church, it was vncertaine in Chrysostomes time, and therefore I say it was a blinde error without a heade.

p. 35246 In Saint Augustines time, Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie. Pur. 54. Contra: That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time. Pur. 161. And specially here, cap. 3. pag. 14 saying: And this I thinke is the right pedigree of praiers for the dead and Purgatorie, where he putteth the very last generation of it to hauehave bene in S. Augustines time, and the foundationlong afore Christes time.

It were a strange contradiction, that could bee picked out of these two allegories, laying the foundation, and rifely budding; seeing the foundation is the beginning of a building, and budding is the first towardnesse of fruite As for the pedigree, is not to the last generation, as Bristow saith, layed in Saint Augustines time, but from the first auctor howe it was continued vntounto Saint Augustines time, since which there hauehave beene many dissents before popish Purgatory were throughly shaped and brought forth.

47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure, the representation of almes by such as receiued it, shall moue God exceedingly to mercy. O vaine imagination, for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor. Pur. 242. 243. Contra: Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men giuegive before their death, or bequeath in their Testament, because it is a worke of their owne: than that almes which other men giuegive for them, howbeit also such almes are auaileable for the dead, he saith. Pur. 236. 237.

That which Chrysostome speaketh of litle helpe, wil not serue Allen to proue that almes shall moue GOD exceedingly to mercy.

48 The auncient Doctors did holde the foundation. Contra: cap. 4 pag. 28. He saith, The third Councel of Carthage did define, that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Some, and GOD the holy Ghost.

The Councel of Carthage by that decree denied, neither y^e person nor office of Christ, nor of the holy Ghost, therefore they held the foundation.

49 Here cap. 8. he saith, that the iust of the olde Testament went not to Lymbus Patrum after their death, but to heauen immediatly. Contra: The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise, was taken away by the death of Christ, p. 353when he opened Paradise, yea the kingdome of heauen (whereof Paradise was but a sacrament) vntounto all beleeuers, so, that the penitent theese had passage into Paradise.

The vertue of Christes death extendeth to the old fathers for their saluation: as much as vntounto vsus, yet the cause which opened paradise and the kingdome of heauen, was the death of Christ, by Gods ordinance appointed to worke righteousnesse for all the elect, as well before the time of his suffering, as since.

50 Who so denieth the authoritie of the holy scriptures, thereby bewraieth him selfe to be an heretike. Contra: I say not this (here cap. 9 pag. 170. that Eusebius was not accounted an heretike) to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martine Luther and Illyricus, for I am persuaded that they are more curious than wise in so doing.

My words be not alledged truely, in neither of both propositions. In the former they are these, I will not gainesay, but whoso denieth, &c. I doe not alwaies affirme, that I will not gainesay. I may be in doubt. But to graunt that I had affirmed the first proposition absolutely: what contradiction do I make in saying that Eusebius although he affirmed the Epistle of Saint Iames to be a counterfet, was not accounted an heretike? Shall other mens account be ioyned to mine affirmation, to charge me with contradiction? Againe, the former proposition, Who so denieth, &c. If it be affirmed, must be vnderstoode of such as denie the scriptures which are once receiued generally, because they are contrary to his opinion. If he meane the contradiction to be, for that I say: I will not excuse Martine and Illyricus which doubt of the Epistle of Saint Iames, for that I am persuaded they are more curious then wise in so doing: I must tell him, that doubting of the scriptures is not denying them, neither is foolish curiosity like by heresie.

Last of al, where he chargeth me with falsification of Allens words to auoide a shameful absurditie ensuing of his affirmation, he plaieth his old parts, first in falsifying my words: where I say to reduce, he saith to redeeme: secondly he saith, that Allen speaketh of him that nowe leadeth p. 354a godly life, but will not be reduced to the perfection thereof by repentance, or satisfaction of his lothsome life past. The very words of Allen be these: This our aduersarie, Math. 5. here signifieth our brother, which hath iust quarell against vsus in iudgemēt, for y^t we would not giuegive eare vntounto him sharply admonishing vsus of our faults, being therefore an aduersary to our vices and fleshly conuersation. In which sort to vsus that are flesh and bloud, and ready to euill from our youth, all be aduersaries that preach Christ, the amendment of licentious maners, repentance of our lothsome life past, or else vse against vsus the rod of correction and bodily punishment, that our soules may be saued in the day of the appearing of our Lord. To this kinde of aduersary Christ counselleth and commandeth vsus, for our great good, to agree and consent whiles we be here in the way of this our pilgrimage and transitorie life, least all these meanes which he wrought to reduce vsus, to the perfection of a Christian godly life, be as it were, a witnesse of our contempt, and him selfe our accuser before the Iudge, that shall so iustly reward euerie man according to his deedes: that is Christe him selfe, to whome the father hath giuen all iudgement.

Nowe the wordes in which I reproue this absurditie of Allen, are these. But before we goe any further, let vsus see howe the doctrine of this chapter agreeth with y^t we had in the chapter next before. There we were told, that Purgatorie serueth but for veniall sinnes, or else for such mortall sinnes, as by forgiuenesse in this life obtained, are made veniall trespasses. But here not onelyonly vices and fleshly conuersation, but also contempt of all that preach Christ, and repentance of our lothsome life past, &c. are saide to be the debt that must be discharged in Purgatorie to the vttermost farthing, then the which no vice is more mortall, nor further from forgiuenesse. For he that not onelyonly leadeth a lothsome life, but also contemneth all those meanes that Christ hath wrought, to reduce him to the perfection of a Christian godly life; (I vse his owne wordes) howe can he hauehave remission of his sinnes in this life? and yet Maister Allen dare promise p. 355him, that the tolleration of bandes in the prison of Purgatorie, shall recompence his debt, and bring him from thence into the blessed presence of Christ.