Rejoinder to Bristows Reply, Part 1 · Chapter 8 · Section 3

Rejoinder to Bristows Reply · Part 1 · Chapter 8 · Section 3

p. 122The third part.

Concerning the question of purgatorie, and first ab authoritate Bristowe.scripturae negatiuè.

I saide. Purg. 44…. It is no good logike, to conclude p. 123Fulke.negatiuely of any one place or booke of scripture: yet …ontrarie to mine owne rule, (Bristow saith) I conclude …egatiuely out of the place 1. Thes. 4. S. Paul findeth …one other comfort, to moderate the mourning of the faithfull, but onelyonly the quiet rest of them that are asleepe in the Lord, and y^e hope of their glorious resurrec…ion: ergo there is no comfort in praying for their soules. … aunswere, mine argument is apt and good to confute Allen, which citeth that place to prooue, that as immoderate mourning, is against the hope of the resurrectiō, so being ioyned with praiers and almes, it hath the liuely hope of life in those that sleepe in peace. This aduantage Bristowe hath, by rending and tearing mine argumentes from the bodie of my booke, that it cannot bee perceiued, vppon what ground I vse them. Neuerthelesse hauing often before in that aunswere to Allen, protested that hee coulde bring nothing out of the scriptures for allowing prayer for the deade, this argument is to be referred to the same conclusion, after this manner. If in most conuenient place, the holy ghost …oyne not prayer and almes to moderate mourning for the departed, then doeth he ioyne them in no place: but in most cōuenient place he ioineth not: ergo in no place. The maior is prooued by the wisedome of Gods spirit, which alwayes choseth that which is most conuenient: the minor is manifest and granted: ergo the conclusion is true. But Bristowe asketh me if I preaching to moderate the mourning of the faithfull, vse none other comfort then these two? I answere him concerning the state of the departed, I vse none other proper places of cōfort but these two, the hope of their glorious resurrection, & their quiet rest in the meane time. But S. Paul, saith Bristowe, speaketh nothing of their quiet rest after death, although he name them that are asleepe in the Lorde. If they sleepe in the Lord, they are not onelyonly at rest, but in happinesse. Can you interprete to sleepe in the Lord, to be in hellish torments, such as you faine your purgatorie paines to be? Are they not blessed which die in y^e Lord? The Prophet Esay saith, cap. 57. of y^e righteous after their death, y^t p. 124there shalbe peace, they shall rest in their beddes: Ergo, they that sleepe in the Lord, enioy a quiet rest.

The 2. argument is out of 1. Cor. 11. Saint Paul reherseth what he receiued and deliuered concerning the sacrament, but oblation for the dead, he rehearseth no… ergo he neither receiued nor deliuered it. So you make (sayth Bristowe) as though the Apostle there prescribeth the whole order of ministration contrary to that he sayeth afterwarde, of setting other things in order. I answere, that obiection is auoided in the same place immediatly after, Pur. 362. & therefore I will not here repete the answere. And that it is not of one place negatiuely, you your selfe here confesse, that I denye it to be written by any of the Euangelistes which entreat of the sacrament. But you are not ashamed to affirme, that the Apostle intended no more in that place, but to correct the sinne of vnworthie receiuing, vppon coulot of a place of Augustine, Ep. ad Ian. 118. Cap. 3. Inde enim. For that respect, the Apostle also sayeth, that they receiue it vnworthily, who do not by a reuerence singularly dewe, discerne it from other meates, as sufficiently appeareth through that same whole place in the first Epistle to the Corinthians, if it be diligently considered. Doth Augustine say, or can any man proue out of his saying, that he ment, that S. Paul intended no more, but to correct the sinne of the vnworthie receiuing? But admitt it were so, how could he better correct that sinne, then by shewing the whole institution, substantiall matter and fourme, ende and vse of that sacrament, and so he doth, although ceremonies and externall obseruations about it, he doth not expresse.

The third argument is out of Leu. 21. and Numer. 19. which prescribe what law was appointed for lamenting the dead and diuerse other ordinances concerning the dead, in which was no sacrifice, or prayer for the dead was offred, but that they were so separated from the liuing, that the priestes might hauehave nothing to do with them but in speciall cases. Bristowe sayeth, I might as well conclude that the dead should not be buryed. In p. 125…eede so to conclude, were to conclude of one place …egatiuely, but I presuppose my former assertion, that …n no place of Scripture there is mentioned prayer or offering for the dead, no not in those which conteine …peciall order for the dead. I adde further, that the …riest to whō specially offering of sacrifice perteineth, …s so separated from the dead, that he is forbidden to …ourne for them, much more to offer sacrifice for thē, …r to pray for them, which can not be without lamen…ation for their miserable estate &c.

From these particular places, I come to the whole …awe, and conclude negatiuely thus: All lawfull sacri…ices were prescribed by the lawe: Sacrifice for the dead …as not prescribed by the lawe: therfore it was no law…ull sacrifice. The answere he sayth is by returning it …ppon my selfe, but in deede hee maketh it by denying …he minor: affirming that sacrifice for the dead was pre…cribed vnderunder the name of sacrifice for sinne. I might …ere reply, out of your owne doctrine, that not the …uiltinesse, but the paine of sinne is in many to be pur…ed, which hauehave obteyned remission of all their sinnes, …ither by Popes pardon, or priestes absolution, or by …ods forgiuenesse vntounto the penitent. But I will fol…owe the argument I shewed that the forme of sacrifice …as such, as could not be offered but of the liuing or …or the liuing, because they are commaunded in all sa…rifice for sinne generally to lay their hand vppon the head of the beast to be sacrificed. Hereunto Bristowe replyeth, that this grosse absurditie would follow, that …acrifice for sinne could not be offered, but of thē that were present: therefore not for the children, the sicke, …or captiues, for kings and cities of the world vncircum…ised, and diuerse other sortes. I reioygne, that no sacri…ices for sinne, but sacrifices of thanksgiuing or prospe…ities, coulde be offred for the absent: and especially for the vncircumcised which could not hauehave remission of sinnes, before they were ingraffed into the people of God, but temporall benefites at the prayers of Gods people they might obteine. As for children, sicke, p. 126captiues, &c. they might hauehave remission of sinnes without sacrifice, which was but the Sacrament thereof, as well in their childhoode, sickenesse, captiuitie, when they coulde not offer according to the lawe, as in time of desolation and destruction of the Temple, when no sacrifice for sinne coulde be offered by any or for any, but onelyonly in the place where the tabernacle or temple was. Wherefore the sacrifice of Iudas Machabaeus wheresoeuer hee learned it, hath no warrant i… the law.

The fourth argumēt, of the whole scripture negatiuely to conclude, I saide it is good logike, after this manner. All true doctrine is taught in the scripture: Purgatorie is not taught in the scripture: therefore purgatorie is no true doctrine. Bristowe denyeth both the maior and minor. The maior I hauehave prooued in this chapter, part 1. after the examination of the 8. text of scripture. The minor hee would prooue to be false by these reasons. First purgatorie is taught in the scripture in the Machabees, Which he saith is in the canon of the true Church, which I also confesse, to be the true Church in the thirde counce… of Carthage, and therefore it is canonicall, if any other scripture be Canonicall. Supposing that which is false, that the Macabees were canonicall, yet is not Purgatorie prooued by them: prayer for the deade doeth not necessarily drawe purgatorie after it. The Grecians of longe time hauehave vsed prayer for the deade, yet they doe not receiue the doctrine of purgatorie. But to prooue the Machabees to be Canonical, he citeth the third councel of Carthage, wherein the two bookes of Machabees are accounted amongest the rest. But there are also fiue bookes of Salomon, whereas wee knowe there are onelyonly three, namely the Prouerbes, the Canticles and the Preacher. Therefore that canon prooueth a manifest error of the councell to allowe fiue bookes of Salomon in steede of three. Let Bristowe now bring out the fourth and fifth booke of Salomon, and say they bee Canonicall, if any other scripture bee Cano nicall.

p. 127The Councell of Laodicea more auncient, nameth not the Machabees. Hierome a Priest of Rome expressely denyeth them to bee Canonicall, Praefatione …n Prouerbia. Ruffinus also, in his exposition of the Creede, affirmeth the Church not to receiue them as Canonicall: beside so many argumentes as the bookes them selues, doe minister which agree, that they were writen by the spirite of man, and not by the spirite of God.

To proceede, Bristow saith that purgatory is taught so plainely 1. Iohn 5. that I could not auoyde the place but by falling into this horrible absurditie, that wee may not praye for all men liuing. I saide in deede we ought not to pray for them that sinne vntounto death, of which Iohn saith: I say not that you shoulde pray for it, or that any man should pray for it, as your vulgar trāslation hath it: But howe it is prooued out of that place, he saith neuer a worde.

Last of all purgatorie is taught (saith Bristowe) Specially against you sir. Iohn 11. For you say after your manner passing confidently, that Martha and Marie (as the scripture is manifest) did not hope for any restitution of their brother Lazarus to his bodie, before the generall resurrection. If that bee so manifest, what else was it then but the rest of his soule that Martha woulde hauehave Christ to pray for, when shee saide thus, vntounto him: But also nowe I knowe that what soeuer thinges, thou shalte aske of God, God will graunt thee? To which purpose also some auncient writers expounde the place. Thus farre Bristowe. But I pray you sir, why doe you not tell vsus the names at least of those auncient writers that so expounde the place; Peraduenture they were not worth the naming. But are you such a cunning disputer ex concessis, to wrest that I say of Martha and Marie before the comming of Christe, to all times after? as though I sayd, that they neuer hoped for their brothers restitution, because they hoped not before Christe came to Bethanie, as Allen impudently coniectureth, that Lazatus was restored to his bodye at their p. 128prayers made at his tombe: where there is no mention of any prayers, but of lamentation only. I can not tel whether I shuld here require in you more wit or honestie, or else lesse impudence, & malice. But this was your purpose of cauilling and quarilling, when you durst not attempt the confutation of my bookein such plaine order as I aunswered Allen, but in this confuse manner, to bring all my argumentes first out of ioynt, and then to play with them at your pleasure.

2 Ab authoritate scripturae, affirmatiuè First about certaine Bristowe.foundations of purgatorie, and prayer for the dead.

I saide, the worde of God ouerthroweth the popish distinction of sinnes mortall & Veniall, shewing that Fulke.all sinnes of their owne nature deserue eternall death: and yet all by the merciemercy of God are pardonable or veniall, except the sinne against the holy ghost. Bristowe saith, that I here graunt the doctrine, and yet deny the distinction: which is vtterly false: for, that all sinnes deserue eternall death, and yet be pardonable, it ouerthroweth the doctrine and distinction both. For the Papistes holde, y^t there are some sinnes so small, as they deserue not in their owne nature eternal damnation, as Bristow immediately hereafter confesseth, where he denieth that the curse of God pronounced Deut. 27. and Gal. 3. against all them that abide not in all thinges written in the lawe, extendeth not vntounto eternall death, saying that hanging on tree, or crucifying is not eternal death, and yet is accursed of God Deut. 21.

Againe, eueryevery one, in the saying of the Apostle, is not meant of Christians, but of them, which trust in the lawe it selfe &c. Doe you not heare playnely the olde serpentes voyce, Nequaquam moriemini: Tush you shall not die, the curse of God doeth not bring eternall death, you neede not be so greatly affraide of it, &c? But where learned you Bristowe, that the curse of God, which is vppon him that hangeth on tree, is not a visible token, that hee deserueth eternall death? Is …ot the text plaine against you, Deut. 21. When a man …ath sinned worthy of death, and is iudged to death, & …anged on the tree, his carcase shall not remaine vppon …e tree, but shalbe buryed the same day, for he is accur…d of God that is hanged on the tree: therefore thou …alt not defile the lande which the Lord thy God hath …iuen thee to possesse. He is not therefore accursed, be…ause he is hanged on the tree, if he were innocent; but …ecause he hath sinned worthie of death, & so is hanged: … which respecte our sauiour Christ, being hanged on …e tree, though most innocent in his owne person, …et bearing the guiltinesse of all our sinnes, became …ccursed for vsus, not to discharge vsus of such a curse … did not bring eternall death (but by your imagi…tion might fall vppon an innocent person) but … redeeme vsus from the curse of the lawe, whiche wee …aue incurred more then tenne thousand times through …r manifolde sinnes and transgressions. And that …e curse pronounced Deuteronom. 27. bringeth with it …e payne of eternall death, I wishe euerie man …at will not bee deceyued, with the flattering voyce …f the Serpent, to giuegive eare to the worde of GOD, …here hee shall see, that this is a conclusion of the …rses, solemnely to bee pronounced by the Levites, … which Amen was to be aunswered of all the people: …gainst idolaters, cursers of parents, murtherers, ince…uous persons, remouers of their neighbours markes, oppressors of the fatherlesse and straungers, &c. and generally against all transgressours of the Lawe, vntounto whome the curse of eternall damnation is threatned …n the same wordes', that it is to the rest. Marke also, where the Apostle to the Galath 3. by this curse, pro…eth all them that bee vnderunder the lawe, to be subiect… vntounto this curse, howe the serpent denying this curse to bee the assurance of eternall death, maketh the case of them to bee nothing so daungerous, but continuing vnderunder the Lawe, they may auoyde eternall death. And where he saith euerie one in the Epistle, is not meant of Christians, I woulde knowe of him whether p. 130the Galathians, to whome saint Paule writeth, were not Christians, but yet seduced by false Apostles, to take vponupon them the obseruation of the lawe, which as it was impossible, so it would bring them from y^e blessing of Christ, vntounto the curse of God. That true Christians are discharged of this curse, it is by the onelyonly merite of Christes satisfaction, and not that the sinnes themselues deserue not euerlasting death, though they b… neuer so small of their owne nature, by the sentence of Gods curse, which is a iust rewarde for transgression. Heb. 2.

The two other places that I cite for this purpose: The soule that sinneth shall dye: Ezech. 18. and, the rewarde of sinne is death: Rom. 6. he will expounde by the saying of saint Iames Chapt. 1. sinne when it is consummate, gendreth death: as though this place of S. Iames denyed sinne, not brought into acte, to deserue death, because shewing that the cause of mens destruction i… in themselues, from the first concupisence to the laste and grosest Acte, hee concludeth that those grosse acts bring a man into eternall death. Our sauiour Christe saith, this is condemnation, that light is come into the worlde, and men hauehave loued darknes rather then light. Were it not good Logike and Diuinitie also, of this place to conclude, that condemnation perteineth not to men, but where the light offered is refused; or that if Christ had not come, none had ben condemned? Iohn. 3. and likewise, yea much rather, wher Christ saith: If I had not come and spoken vntounto them, they shoulde not hauehave had sinne? Iohn. 15. Were the obstinate Iewes cleare of sinne by Bristowes iudgement, before Christ came? But let vsus examine his reason. It is sinne (saith he) as soone as it is gendred, but it gendreth not death so so one as it is gendred: Therefore some sinne there is, that gendreth notd eath. The minor is false, for Sainct Iames, saying that sinne consummat gendreth death, doth not say that sinne gendreth not death, so soone as it is gendred. But beholde yet his impudent wresting of the p. 131scripture, hee addeth also an exception, vntounto sinne consummat, that not eueryevery sinne consummat gendreth death, except the matter bee of weight accordingly. For els that the lightnesse of the matter, as an idle worde bringeth not death, hee sufficiently signifieth in saying, that in a weightie matter, the lightnesse or imperfection of consent doth it not. These are his wordes, by which you may see, that without all shame, hee imputeth such sayings to Sainct Iames, as hee can finde neuer a worde in hi…, sounde like such … saying. But this is the manner of heretikes, which learne not all trueth out of the Scriptures to bring their opinion to the scripture, and to inforce the wordes thereof, against all equitie, to signifie and say, whatsoeuer it pleaseth them. Nowe that saint Iames holdeth that euerie sinne deserueth death, I will proue out of his owne saying, by this argument: Whosoeuer is guiltie of all the lawe and commaundements, deserueth eternall death: Whosoeuer offendeth in one, is guiltie of all: therefore whosoeuer offendeth in one, deserueth eternall death. The maior I truste you will graunt: The minor is Sainct Iames cap. 2. Whosoeuer shall keepe the whole lawe, and offende but in one pointe, hee is guiltie of all: Then seeing euerie sinne is a breach of Gods Lawe, as Sainct Iohn affirmeth, Iohn 3. not onelyonly greate sinnes, but also small sinnes, wherein soeuer men offende against the lawe of GOD deserue eternall death, which cannot bee auoyded but by remission for Christes sake: for bee the sinne neuer so small, it is committed against GOD the authour of the Lawe, who thereby hath forbidden all sinnes, which reason the Apostle vseth, to prooue that hee which offendeth in one, is guiltie of all.

And therefore the textes by mee alleged doe sufficiently proue, that all sinnes of their owne nature are mortall.

Whether after sinne remitted, payne Bristowe.may remayne.

p. 132That God remitteth the punishment, with the fault, in respect whereof the punishment is due, I proue by Fulke.Ezek. 18. & 33. where the Lorde promiseth to put away the remembrance of a sinners offences, that truely turneth vntounto him, bringing forth the fruits of repentance. Bristow saith, this taketh not place before the daye of iudgment, whereby it would ensue, that to man could hauehave comfort of his sinnes forgiuen in this life. But he opposeth the sayings of the Prophet, Psal, 24. & 78. Lorde remember not the sinnes of my youth: and, Lorde remember not our olde sinnes: which are the prayers of the penitent, to obtaine forgiuenesse of their sinnes: which once obtained, they say, The Lorde hath remoued our sinnes from vsus, as farre as the East is from the West. Psalme 102. That may bee, saith Bristowe, in respect that they bee remoued from eternall damnation, although they hauehave yet to abide neuer so much temporall punishment. I will proue that to bee false. To bee remoued as farre as the East is from the West, is as farre as may bee: but not to bee remoued from temporall punishment, is not to bee remoued as farre as may bee: therefore it is not to bee remoued as farre as the Easte is from the West. But the whole Psalme, saith Bristowe, is spoken not of the time of our receiuing into Gods fauour by absolution: but of our finall restitution, which shall bee at the later day. What can bee saide more absurdly? Thankes are there giuen to GOD, not onelyonly for spirituall benefites, but also for temporall.

The fatherly pytie of GOD towardes vsus as his children which keepe his couenant and are mindefull of his commaundements to doe them, is there set forth, which eueryevery man that is not blinde with hereticall malice, will acknowledge to bee extended towarde vsus in this life, & therefore also the forgiuenesse of our sinnes, and remouing of them as farre as Heauen from earth, and East from West. As for the argument of singing that Psalme in the popishe Church, vppon the feaste of Christs ascension, to proue, that it pertayneth p. 133altogether to the later day, is as good, as it is true, …hat the wordes there spoken, are onelyonly of our finall …estitution at the later day.

To the example of the publican, hee aunswereth …hat there is no more saide, but that hee went home …ustified more then the Pharisee. yes, there is saide, that …ee was iustified by forgiuenesse of sinnes, which hee …onfessed, not trusting in him selfe that hee was …ighteous, although hee ascribed all his vertues to the grace of GOD as the Pharisee did: O GOD I thanke thee &c. Iumpe with the Papistes, Luke 18. But Bristowe asketh me, howe I proue that hee which is iu…tified may not bee in some debt? seeing all the iu…tified children of GOD, are taught to pray, forgiue …s our debtes. I proue it thus. Hee that is by GOD …ustified, is accounted for iust: But hee that is iuste, is …n no debte for sinne: therefore he that is iustified, is in …o debte for sinne. That the faithfull are taught to …raye daylie, forgiue vsus our debtes, it is because they …inne daylie, and by sinne enter into debte, and there…ore hauehave neede of dayly remission to continue iusti…ied.

The Prodigall childe Luke 15. hee saithe, is the Gentile receiued by baptisme, who if after baptisme he became prodigall, hee saith, I hauehave not proued, that being receiued by penaunce, wee must enioyne him no more punishment, then at his other receiuing. Beside that he restrayning this parable onelyonly to Gentiles, comming first to Baptisme, depriueth the faithfull of inestimable comforte, hee neither hath any worde in the scripture so to restrayne it, and the whole contexte is against him. For Saincte Luke sheweth the occasion of the three parables of the loste sheepe, of the loste Groate, and of the prodigall Childe, to hauehave beene, because the Scribes and Pharisees murmured, that he receiued the Publicanes, and sinners, which all were Iewes and circumcised, yet fallen from the couenant of God by infinite and notorious sinnes: therefore according to right analogie, the lost Childe, p. 134euen as the lost sheepe, and lost Groate, is euerie penitent sinner; the elder brother, as the 99. sheepe, and 9. groates are the Scribes and Pharisees, which through hypocrisy in their owne iudgement, are righteous and neede no repentaunce.

To the 2. debters Luke 7. he answereth, that although Christ forgaue them both, yet they both had to be forgiuen after, according to the proportion of their louelove. This importeth manifest contradiction, he forgaue all, yet something was not forgiuen. Yea saith Bristowe, Marie had much sinnes forgiuen her, because she loued much, and therefore long after her hartes conuersion, and therefore after her first forgiuenesse, Christe sayeth: Thy sinnes are forgiuen thee.

This is a strange kinde of reasoning. Christe shewing the cause of Maries great louelove, to hauehave bene for that great sinnes were forgiuen her, expresseth in voyce, that which she before conceiued by faith, that her sinnes were forgiuen her, Ergo after her first forgiuenes, she had need of a second, which she procured by louelove. And yet it is more fonde, that in saying to Simon and of Simon the Pharisee: To whom lesse is forgiuen, he loueth lesse, he giueth him to vnderstand, that he owed more then he was aware, and therefore he should increase as Marie did in penitentiall louelove. First howe proueth he that Simon was this other detter, to whom lesse was forgiuen? Secondly, admit that he was, howe proueth he, that he should shewe as great penitentiall louelove as Marie, seeing his debt was not so great as Maries, and therefore needed not so great a proportion of his louelove, according to his owne heresie of merite? Thirdly, when Christe sayeth, To whom lesse is forgiuen he loueth lesse, he speaketh not so much of the quantitie of sinnes, but the acknowledging of them greater or lesser. For he that confesseth great sinnes to be pardoned, acknowledgeth that he is bound to great louelove, as Marie did: the Pharisee, who, though his sinnes were as great as Maries, & in GODS sight, by meanes of hypocrisie more abhominable, p. 135yet was so blinded in opinion of his owne righteousnesse, that he sawe them not, and therefore this louelove was as colde, as he imagined his sinnes forgiuen to be fewe and small.

Thus the historie of the sinneful womans great louelove, proueth nothing that punishment remayneth due to be payed after the debt is forgiuen. Whether this woman were Marie Magdalen, as Brîstowe calleth her, I wil not here dispute. Saint Luke giueth her no name.

Whether Purgatorie follow vponupon this last foundation.Bristowe.

The foundation is ouerthrowen, for all sinnes are Fulke.proued to deserue eternall death, and when God pardoneth them, he pardoneth them clearely, as well the punishment as the guiltinesse, for what should he punishe in them that are guiltie of no sinne by his pardon. Therefore where I cited Psalm. 103. That God hath not dealt with vsus according to our sinnes, &c. Bristow is driuen to his former shift, that these wordes are spoken of the Prophete onelyonly, for the time of the finall rewarde which I hauehave confuted before.

Concerning those that repent at the houre of death, I sayde they hauehave rewarde of eternall life, as well as they that repent sooner, by authoritie of the parable Matthew 20. of them that came the last houre, to worke in the vineyarde.

Bristow saith, I am deceiued, because I cannot see any iustice in merciemercy. Yes verily, I see the iustice of God fully answered in Christ, not in the person that needeth merciemercy, who is pardoned and iustified gratis freely, Rom. 3. & 11. But the spirite of God sayeth, Apoc. 2. that he will giuegive to eueryevery one of you according to his workes: wherevpō Bristowe inferreth, y^e God is not alike good to al, that he hath once shewed merciemercy vntounto, for Christ, to all the baptised. I aunswere that texte is a threatning to Iesabel, & them that commit fornication with her, if they do not repent from their workes. For it foloweth p. 136immediately. But to you I say and the rest in Thyatei…, y^t hauehave not this doctrine, and which hauehave not knowen y^e deapth of Satan, as they say, I wil not lay vponupon you any other burthen, &c. although it be true, that God rewardeth eueryevery man according to his workes, which is in qualitie good or euill, not in quantitie as much or as little as they deserue. What shall I say that Bristowe bringeth in a varietie of pence, contrary to the scope of the parable, & affirmeth the pence to be wages for the working & that also by bargaine? So that eternall life is not the gift of God, neither are men saued by grace & not of workes, in his iudgement, contrary to the Apostles plaine doctrine. Eph. 2.

In the conclusion he saith, If you can prooue that God will shewe as full merciemercy also where he findeth not that fulnesse of Christes grace, then call vsus hardly enimies, for not suffering God to shewe merciemercy to whom he will. But where wanteth that fulnesse of Christes grace, in any of Gods electe? Is it where greatest sinnes be? The Apostle answereth, where sinne hath abounded, grace hath more then abounded. Rom. 5. Wherfore the fulnesse of the grace of Christ being extended to the greatest sins, what should we doubt that the lesser should not be swallowed vp of it?

Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another.Bristowe.

I saide Purg. 198. I hauehave learned in the scripture, that Fulke.there is no name giuen vnderunder heauen, by whiche they may be helped, which are not helped by Christes death, Act. 4. Bristowe asketh whether I hauehave learned, that they which are helped by the death of Christe, can not through his grace helpe and be holpen one of an other.

To whom I aunswere as I saide before, to Allen: I learne in scripture, that the bloud of Christe purgeth vsus from all sinne, Iohn. 1. But if there be any which are not purged of all their sinnes, by the bloud of Christe, (as the Papistes affirme them to be which hauehave neede of other purgation) I hauehave not learned that they can hauehave p. 137any helpe elsewhere. Or if you say, the bloud of Christ h…th purged them from all sinne, why doe you invent another purgatory to purge them, which is not y^e bloud of Christ? for fierie torments according to Gods iustice are not the bloud of Christ shed for our redemption, by which men are iustified freely, Rom. 3. through which we hauehave remission of our sinnes through the riches of his grace. Eph. 1.

Another reason of mine is grounded vponupon Allens wordes, which saith: that they which are in purgatory, cā not by any motion of minde, attaine more merciemercy, then their life past deserued. Whereof I inferre, that their faith being a notable motion of the minde, cannot profite them, except the merites of other men should profite them without faith, the Scripture saying, that without faith, it is not possible to please God. Bristowe icsting at these iron conclusions, letteth the argument stand, and denyeth the latter conclusion, affirming that by their faith, they are in case to be profited by other mens workes: which if it be true, then is Allens conclusion false, that they can not profite them selues, by any motion of minde, whereon it will followe that they cannot profite them selues by beleeuing, that other mens workes may helpe them, beeing destitute of their owne. They cannot atteine merciemercy by any motion of minde, Ergo not by faith.

Fulkes common argument of the Omnisufficiencie of Christes Bristowe.passion.

As though I defended the onelyonly omnipotencie of Fulke.Christes passion able to purge al sinnes, and not the omnisufficiencie hauing satisfied for our sinns, first he replyeth, that an Origenist might likewise say, The omnisufficiencie of Christes passion cannot stande with hell.

No sir, for against him, is not onelyonly the wil of Christ, but his Act also past, hauing sufficiently onelyonly for his elect: which satisfaction he communicateth vntounto them, not in respecte of their workes, but according to his p. 138grace, whiche can abide no workes to ioyne with it in merite, but onelyonly faith in receiuing confirmed by the sacramentes in the persons of all them, that heare his word, and in them that cannot heare, only his grace working either in the sacrament or without it: so that no degrees, proportions, meanes or instruments, wherof Bristow babbleth, can make any merite to detract from Christs death, y^e most plentiful & free grace of satisfactiō, for all our sins cōmitted either before baptisme, or after.

For this purpose, I cited 1. Iohn. 2. Pur. 42. to proue that if any man sinne after baptisme, Iesus Christ is our Advocate with the father, and the propitiation for our sinnes. Bristow answereth, That is true, But that in playing the Advocate for our sinnes after baptisme, he request…th the like & equal grace, as he did in baptisme for sinnes afore baptisme, where hauehave you that? If you make Christes advocation a playing matter, I will take no charge of you. But to let passe your vnreuerent phrase, what doe you ascribe vntounto him in his office of advocate, but onelyonly to be a requester, as eueryevery common Saint is counted with you? But you must vnderstande, that the office of an Advocate or patrone is, to pleade for his clientes, and not to require only, and what hath he to pleade for vsus against y^e debte of our sins, either before or after baptism but his owne satisfaction in his death & suffering? And therefore euen that which you aske, where I hauehave i… I hauehave euen in the very same words, y^t he requesteth as an advocate, for our sins after baptisme the like and equall grace, as he did in Baptisme for sinns afore baptisme. For there I finde him a propitiation for our sinnes committed after baptisme, which word I maruel your blind heresie could not see, whereof I reason thus. The same propitiation, as course of grace working after baptisme, that was in or before baptisme, must hauehave equall effectes of grace: But Christ is y^e same propitiation after Baptisme that he was in it, or before: Ergo he must hauehave the same effectes of grace, working the satisfaction of our sinnes euen at the full. Where I alledge Purg. 9…. that the bloud of Christ purgeth vsus from all our sins: 1. Ioh. 1. Bristowe answereth, It is taken out of the same place, and ha…h the same p. 139answere, to wit, that his bloud doth worke more graciously in the sacrament of baptisme, then in the sacrament of penance. Of pe…ance being a sacrament, I wil not here dispute, but fol…owe the principall matter in controuersie, whether all …innes of the repentant, after baptisme, be as clearly purged, as they were in baptisme by the bloud of Christ. Although the propitiation in the former argumēt, doth …ufficiently proue it, yet euen this very place is manifest…y to be vnderstood of the bloud of Christ purging all our sinnes committed after baptisme, as well as before. The bloud of Christ, saith S. Iohn purgeth vsus, that is, me & you (baptized Christians, I doubt not) of al sinne, which if we say we hauehave not, we deceiue our selues, and the trueth is not in vsus. The worde is foreign doth make pure and cleane, and so is the vulgar latine emundat. Againe he saith in the same place: if we confesse our sins, …e is faithful and iust that he may forgiue vsus our sinnes, and make vsus pure from all iniquitie. If the bloud of Christ, in which we hauehave forgiuenesse, doeth purge vsus from all our sinnes, and make vsus pure from all iniqui…ie, whensoeuer we acknowledge them with hartie repentance; what place is left for any other purging or clensing of that, which the bloud of Christ and the merciemercy of God hath made pure and cleane?

That I cite out of S. Iohn, being washed by Christ, we are throughly cleane. Iohn 13. & out of Esay: Although our sinnes were as red as scarlet, they are made as white as snowe: He answereth these places are euident of baptisme. And therefore he admitteth that I sayd of them so clensed, that they are made capable immediatly of the heauenly inheritance. But why, I pray you, are they euident of baptisme? because there is mention of washing in both places? Is there no washing but in baptisme? At least wise, will you saye, that the Prophet Esay preaching to the people of his age, when hee called them to washing, called them to baptisme, so manye hundreth yeares before baptisme was instituted? Is it not therefore euident, that hee calleth them to repentaunce? Or else, hauing p. 140first so grieuously accused them of their present sinnes, doeth he shewe no comfort, but in the sacramēt of baptisme, which no man liuing could then possibly obteine in such manner as you meane, no not the Prophet him selfe. I might well say to you, as you say to mee in another place, In good sooth Dauus, these things are not aptly diuided according to their times. And that Christ Iohn. 13. speaketh not of the ceremonie of baptisme, it i… manifest by diuerse reasons, but of his grace by which he washeth vsus from all our sinnes. And therefore be sayth to Peter, except he were washed of him, he coulde hauehave no part with him. But neither Peter, nor any other was or is baptised of him with water: Iohn 4. therfore he speaketh not of the sacrament of baptisme. And where you adde, that he which is so washed, must neuerthelesse wash his feete, that is, say you, his veniall sinnes, which he committeth afterwarde, although he continue withall in the cleannesse of baptisme, before he be all cleane, and aske mee, what if he dye before he wash his feete? Admitting that the feete should signifie none but veniall sinnes. I aske you againe, who shall wash his feete, but he which washed Peters feet? for the true text is foreign, he hath no neede but that his feete be washed. Peter could not wash his owne feete in this figuratiue signification, but except Christ did wash him he could hauehave no part with him. But if we should take the feete onelyonly for veniall sinnes, and the generall washing for baptisme, this inconuenience would follow of Christes wordes: that he which is baptised and purged from veniall sinnes, neede no purgation to clense him from mortall sinnes, but is perfectly cleare. The wordes of our sauiour are generall, & cannot admitt your exception, of continuing in the cleannesse of baptisme: therefore the feete signifie all sinnes to be pardoned, after the first grace purging vsus, which is in deede represented and ratified in baptisme, but yet is perfectly distinct from the sacrament, and often times deuided. For Iudas of whome you speake, if he had dyed immediatly after he was baptised, should not hauehave p. 141gone to heauen, as one throughly washed or clensed by …aptisme.

Where the Papists vrge the saying of Dauid, Psal. …1. Amplius laua me, &c. Wash me more from mine in…quitie: Bristow saith, I hauehave nothing to answeare, but …hat it was at Gods hand, and by the meanes of Christes …lood, that he prayed to be clensed. Purg. 97. & 78. Whether I hauehave nothing else to say, let the readers of …hose places iudge. But that which I here saye, taketh a…ay Purgatorie and all satisfaction of mans merite, al…hough Dauid, as all the faithfull do pray, that they may …aily more and more feele the mercy of God and grace …f Christes redemption, to the full satisfying of their …onscience, and perfect assurance of faith and hope of e…ernall life, which though it receiue daily increases, yet …he vertue of Christes death, in which God is reconciled …nto vsus, is alwayes one and the same.

Where I charge Allen, that the sufficiencie of Christs …assion, is counted a light argument vntounto him: Bristow …aith, it is too light in deede, to beare downe any doctrin …f Christ. But when, or out of what scripture shal wee …eare the doctrine of Christ for mens merites, satisfa…tions, propitiatorie, or purgatorie it selfe?

Where I denye, that our workes are any parte of sa…isfaction for our sinnes, of which the price is through…y payed in the passion of Christ: Bristow obiecteth the …aying of the Apostle, Phil. 2. Worke your owne saluation: and yet it is God that worketh in you. As though there were no working of our saluation, but by satisfaction for our sinnes. Wee worke our saluation, when we walke in the way that God hath called vsus to passe through, vntounto the free gift of eternall life, namely in faith, obedience, thankfulnes, &c. which are so farre from merite, that it is God which worketh in vsus, both to will and to perfourme any good thing, according to his good pleasure. Phil. 2. And therefore wee neede not the schoole distinction of causes, for the satisfaction of our sinnes by our workes, which is onelyonly the effect of Christes death and passion, needing no helpe of our workes, p. 142which worde (Bristowe sayth) mine ignorance so much abhorreth, and yet the scripture often sayth, that God helpeth both Christ, Ps. 17. & vsus. 2. Cor. 2. Heb. 13. and also that Christs helpeth vsus, Heb. 2. But where sayeth the Scripture, that our workes helpe the passion of Christ? I abhorre not the worde of helping, when it is vsed in that sense, that God and Christ should helpe vsus; or God helpe Christ in respect of his humanitie: but that man by merite should helpe God & Christ, in the worke of our redemption, satisfaction for our sinnes, or purging of them, I abho…e with all my heart: yea, I spit at it, and tread it vnderunder my feete. But if the merciemercy of God (saith Bristowe) although i… be singularly omnisufficient doth not exclude neither Christs passion, nor the working of it, or merites of that man: how doeth the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō, enforte you to exclude either his baptisme & his good workes in his members, or also the working of his baptisme, and the working or efficacie of those good works▪ especially seeing the scripture is plaine for all. Bristow vnderstandeth not, how the merciemercy of God is omnisufficient, which is not as e…ery one will imagine, but as it may stande with his iustice, which is not otherwise satisfied, but in the passion of Christ: which being thereby fully satisfied, we exclude nothing that the scripture admitteth, but that which not onelyonly the scripture denyeth, but nature it selfe abhorreth, that contradictories should be both true: Namely, the iustice of God is fully satisfied by the onelyonly suffering of Christ: And the iustice of god is not satisfied by the onelyonly sufferings of Christ, but by other meanes also, as by our own workes, or suffrings, or other mens for vsus. Neither doeth any text of scripture that Bristowe citeth, proue this later part of the contradiction to be true. First, where he citeth Tit. 3. He hath saued vsus by the lauer of regeneration: The text is, when the louing kindnesse & gentlenes of God our sauiour appeared, not of the works of righteousnes, which we wrought, but according to his owne mercy, he hath saued vsus, by the lauer of regeneration and the receiuing of the holy ghost, which he hath powred foorth plentifully vponupon vsus by Iesus Christ our sauiour, that being iustified by his grace, we might be made heires according to the hope of eternal life. Here it is manifest, we are so …aued by baptisme, that we are iustified by his grace, ther …ore not by the merite of baptisme or satisfactiō of our …nnes in baptisme: but we are saued by baptisme, as we …re in…eo…fed by a deede, that is sealed, that is, assured of …aluation: as Abraham receiued circumcision, the seale …f the righteousnes, which he had by faith, before he was …ircumcised. Ro. 4. and euen so he clenseth his church by …he lauer of water, not by the merite of y^e worke of bap…isme, but in that he gaue him selfe for it, that he might sanctifie it, Eph. 5. After the same maner doth baptisme saue vsus. 1. Pet. 3. not the putting off of y^e filth of the flesh, …ut y^e interrogatiō of a good conscience before god, tho…ough the resurrection of Iesus Christ, which presuppo…eth his death, for satisfaction of our sinnes, as his resur…ection is the speciall cause of our iustification. Last of …ll, saith Bristowe: he hath made vsus kings & priestes to God, Apo. 1. If spiritual priests, ergo, to offer vp spiritual sacrifices, as of …ur mortification. Rom. 12. our almes deedes, Heb. 13. both for our …wne sinnes, & for the sinnes of other. Here in the last point, …he quotation of scripture so plentiful before faileth: but we shal hauehave reason confirmed by scripture: because the …xternall priest is ordeined to offer externall sacrifices for sinnes, …oth for him selfe & for the people. Heb. 5. But this cause is many wayes auoided: for we are priests to offer vp y^e on…y sacrifices of thanksgiuing, & not of propitiation for sinne, which cannot be without shedding of bloud Heb. 9. Secondly, although we be all made priests, yet we are not made high priests, of which the text speaketh. Heb. 5. which office one only can enioy at one time, which is our sauiour Christ, for terme of his life, which is without end. Thirdly, those sacrifices which the externall priest offered for sinnes, could neuer take away sinnes, Heb. 10. much lesse our spirituall sacrifices of thanksgiuing for Gods benefites bestowed on vsus, & his whole church. I cited further. Apoc. 7. These are they y^t came out of y^t great affliction, & hauehave washed their stoles, and made them white in y^e bloud of the lamb: therfore they are in y^e presence of y^e throne of god. Brist. saith, this word p. 144therefore, is referred to their comming out of affliction, and so whited their stoles: And yet this gloser (saith he of me) taketh it away from the affliction, whereas that whiting was nothing else but that affliction. O impudent and blasphemous heretike: when the holy ghost expressely sayeth, they made their stoles white in the bloud of the lamb, darest thou open thy mouth and saye, not only, that that whiting was somewhat else then the bloud of Christ, but also that it was nothing but that affliction, so vtterly excluding the bloud of Christ? But I forgot to conferre other places of scripture, as he chargeth me. Is there any scripture that ascribeth purification of our sinnes, to any other thing, than to the bloud of Christ? Let vsus heare what, whoso ouercommeth, shalbe clothed with white garments. Apoc. 3. But the Martyrs ouercame the diuell, not onelyonly by the blood of the lambe, but also by their owne patient confession, or affliction vntounto death. Apoc. 12. The text is: and they ouercame him by the bloud of the lambe, and by the word of their testimonie, and they loued not their liues vntounto death. Here is no cause of victorie, but the bloud of the lambe, and the worde of their testimonie, which was the confession of their faith, the onelyonly instrumentall cause of their iustification and victorie: who is he which ouercommeth the world, sayth S. Iohn, but he that beleueth? 1. Iohn 5. Faith therefore the onelyonly shilde to hauehave victory against the worlde and the diuell, hath no power in it selfe to clense our sinnes, but leaneth altogether to the bloud of Christ. But it is a proper thing to see Bristow forsake his vulgar latine authenticall translation, and to turne foreign by their owne martyrdom, which is in deede by the worde of their testimonie, or which they did testifie: whereas by his translation foreign foreign should signifie no more then foreign: and foreign should be taken for suffering of death, as I thinke it is in no Greeke author, sure I am it is neuer so taken in the newe testament.

But Bristow addeth: that S. Paul also accordingly calleth it the mortification of Iesus, when the Apostles were mortifyed p. 145for Iesus, and sayeth they carryed the same about continually in their bodies, that also the life of Iesus might also be manifected in their bodies, 2. Cor. 4. I wot well, wee must be conformable to Christ in sufferings, that we may be partakers of his kingdome and glorie: but doeth it therefore followe, that our sufferings merit this glorie by his bloud? or that his bloud without all respect of our merites, doeth not alone purge and clense vsus from all our sinnes? After he had finished the cleansing of our sinnes by his owne selfe, sayeth the Apostle, he is set downe at the right hande of magnificence in the highest. Heb. 1.

Last of all, Bristowe opposeth that Saint Paul sayth: This our affliction although it be but short and light, worketh vsus euerlasting weight of glory exceeding measure aboue measure. 2. Cor. 4. I answere, it worketh not by meriting, not by purging our sinnes, or by satisfying for our iniquities, but by making vsus conformable vntounto our head, in passing by the same way of tribulatiōs vntounto glorie, that he did, euen as the way or steppes which leadeth vntounto an high place of dignitie, maketh not them worthie of the dignitie that must ascende by those steppes vntounto it, and yet it is necessarie for them that will come to that dignitie, to sit in such places, to take that ordinary way. Therefore as the passage of such way worketh their dignitie, so doeth affliction worke our glory. Not to abridge any part of the glorie or merite of Christes suffering, by which onelyonly wee are made worthie of glory when all our sinnes being cleansed by his bloud, wee appeare righteous before God, not in the merite of our owne workes, nor hauing our owne righteousnes, which is by the lawe, but the righteousnesse of God, which is by faith of Iesus Christ, that wee may knowe him of the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings being made conformable vntounto his death, Phil. 3. Wherefore it remaineth, that seeing the bloud of Christ purgeth vsus of all our sinnes, and Iesus Christ is y^e propitiation for our sinnes, committed either after baptisme or before, that all other purgings and satisfactiōs are ouerthrowen, and so popish purgatorie remaineth p. 146without any foundation: the purging of Christs bloud making vsus most pure: and Christ our propitiation being throughly & only sufficient to reconcile vsus.

Secondly: directly of Purgatorie it selfe & prayer for the Bristowe.dead, whether all the elect goe streight to heauen. Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum.

His childish rayling on mine argumentes, with that Fulke.impudent slaunder of all the church of God, which he affirmeth was ignorant that any soules went to heauen before their church had defined it, within these 300. yeres, I passe ouer, & come to the matter in question. I said Purg. 57. against Allen, mainteining that all the iust before Christ were punished for their sinnes forgiuē ma ny hundreth yeres after their departure in hel. That the fathers of the olde testament before Christ were not in hell, it is to be proued with manifest arguments & autorities out of holy scriptures. Although they were not, nor yet are in perfect blessednes, God prouiding a better thing for vsus, that they without vsus, shuld not be made perfect. Heb. 11. But by this text (saith Brist.) S. Paul doth meane, y^t their soules were not yet admitted into heauen. How proueth he that? forsooth, the old testament did consummate nothing, &c. but their sinnes remaining not perfectly remitted, Christ died, &c. A sore bolt, as though any man had his sinnes forgiuen, but by the new testament, or could be heire of the kingdom of heauen, but by y^e death of Christ. But the same apostle saith. Heb 9. That the way of the saints, was not yet opened, while the first tabernacle stood. Bristow addeth to the text of his own, into soncta or heauen: wher the apostle meaneth of the worke of Christs redemption in his death, resurrection & ascension, the effect wherof, neuertheles was extended no lesse to the fathers of y^t olde testament, then to vsus. Thirdly, the apostle saith, Heb. 10. that we hauehave confidence to enter in to the holy place, by the bloud of Iesus, which hath dedicated y^t new & liuing way for vsus, through the vayle that is his flesh. All which proueth nothing, but that there is no entrance into heauen, but by Christ, which way is comon to all y^e saintes of God, of all ages. But Bristow biddeth me conferre the p. 147end of my text. Heb. 11. with the beginning: where he saith, they receiued not y^e promise which is the expositiō of their not consummating: I admit it: for no Christian receiueth the promise consummate before the resurrection of their bodies. The consummation of which promise, & perfection of the saints, God reserueth vntounto one time, when we shal all receiue the promise & consummation together: that they without vsus (saith he) shoulde not be consummate, the same reason is of the apostles & fathers of the primitiue church, & vsus of the later church, & them y^t shalbe to y^e end of the world. Now to mine arguments & autorities of scripture. I reason, that seeing they all beleeued in Christ, they had euerlasting life, & entred not into condemnation, but passed frō death to life. Ioh. 5. To what life (saith Bristow) but the life or resurrection of their bodies? for vntil the last day, all the dead are in death. O prodigious heretike, call you that a passage frō death to life, to continue in death 5. or 6. thousād years? Is God then to this new Saducee, the god of the dead & not of the liuing? yea, he saith, y^t life after corporal deth in y^e new testament, lightly eueryevery where, signifieth y^e resurrection of the bodies. What is it then to take hold of eternall life in this world, which shalbe interrupted w^t so long abyding in death? 1. Tim. 6. And how can it be true which our sauiour saith: he that beleueth in me, hath alreadie eternal life, if they y^t are passed out of this world are all in death? wherfore then is this eternall life interupted with any Purgatorie, Limbus patrum, or death.

The second argument is, of that Christ is called the lamb that was slaine from the beginning of the worlde; because the benefite of his passion extendeth vntounto the godly of all ages alike. Apoc. 13. To this, the beast hath nothing to answere, but y^t it is not said, that the lambe was slaine from the beginning of the world: but that all the reprobates shal adore antichrist whē he cometh. And because Apoc. 17. the words be: whose names were not written in the booke of life frō the beginning of the world: he would hauehave those wordes from the beginning of the world, by a monstrous construction, contrary to the p. 148manifest composition and pointing, both in the Greeke & vulgare Latine, to be referred not to the lamb slaine, but to the booke of life. As though both those textes in their seuerall sense might not be true, except such manifest violence were offered to the construction cō position & pointing in this text of y^e Apoc. Yet he confesseth it to be true, that y^e lambe was slaine from the beginning of the world, which is no where else written in the scripture, but heere: the cause of the trueth, he will not hauehave to be my fonde sense, but because his death was preordeined of God, and prefigured so long before. A substantiall cause by which we may say, that Bristowe was dead from the beginning of the world, because his death was so long before ordeined of God, and prefigured in the death of Adam.

The third argument is, that Esay speaking of y^t righteous that are departed out of this life, sayeth that there is peace, and that they shall rest in their beddes, Esa. 57. like as he affirmeth that Topheth which is Gehinnon, or hell, is prepared of olde for the wicked. To this he answereth, that Esay speaketh not of his owne time, but as a Prophet, of the time now since the cōming of Christ, who is our peace, as though Christ were not their peace as well as oures. And what a shamelesse answere is this, to denye the doctrine of the Prophet concerning the comfort of the faithfull after death, to perteine to the faithfull of his owne time, to whome then it was in vaine preached and published by the Prophet? After a little quarreling against my translatiō, the sense wherof he cannot deny: he asketh, if the rest of the soules must needes be the blisse of heauen? and telleth vsus that their Limbus was not a place of sensible paine: But sir, Salom whereinto the Prophet sayeth the righteous doe goe, will not onelyonly giuegive them rest, without sense of paine: but peace with happinesse and prosperitie. Finally, he sayeth, Topheth or Gehenna, was not the onelyonly hell, because our Creede and the Scripture sayeth, that Christes soule was in hell: I answere, that hell signifyeth either the place, or state of torments for sinnes: in the former, p. 149Caluine (whome you slaunder) sayth not that Christ was in, but in the later, when he complained that he was forsaken of God: there is not therefore proued, by Christes discending into hell, any other place or receptacle of soules in hell, but Topheth and Gehenna y^e place of the damned.

The fourth argument against Limbus, is, that Lazarus was carryed by Angels, not downe to hell, but vp to Abrahams bosome. But the riche man being in hell, looked vp and seeth Abraham afarre of. Bristowe asketh whether foreign signifie to be carryed vp? sir, it signifieth to be carried away, and seeing the riche man looking vp, seeth Lazarus afarre of, it followeth that Lazarus was carried vp and not downe. But you reply, it foloweth not that he was carryed into heauen. Then you may say he was carried vp to hell. But the places you say might be nigh together in respect of the distance of heauen, although one were vpwarde, and also farre off both in state and situation (purgatorie peraduenture betwixt them.) This is a goodly faith, that standeth vponupon peraduenture, and this may be, &c. The Scripture saith, ther was a great Chaos which is an infinite distance betweene them, which cannot agree to Limbus, which must be harde adioyning to hell, or else it is not Limbus. But if they were no way nigh together (sayth he) it will not followe that Abrahams bosome was heauen. I answere, if they were no way nigh together, it could not be hell, nor Limbus of hell, which is the thing I was to proue. Also the text is plaine, that Abrahams bosome was a place of comfort. And other place of comfort then heauen or Paradise, which is all one, for the soules departed, I finde none in Scripture.

The last argument is this: If righteousnesse belong to Abrahams children, the rewarde of righteousnesse also perteineth to them. Therefore Abrahams bosome was open to receiue all the childrem of Abraham, euen as the bosome of God was readie to receiue Abraham, because he was his sonne through faith.

Heere Bristowe noteth no small blasphemie, proceeding p. 150of grosse ignorance, saying, That which is proper to vnigenitus, the onelyonly begotten sonne of God, hee maketh common to Abraham. Why Bristowe? because vnigenitus is eternally, and after his proper manner, in the bosome of the father, doth it thereof followe, that none can be in the bosom of GOD, but the proper place of Christ is made common to them? You threaten in the 12. Chapter oftentimes to bewray my grosse ignorance in the scriptures, and hauehave you such fine knowledge in them, that you coulde not see what Esay writeth Chap. 40. according to your owne translation, Ecce dominus Deus, &c. Beholde the Lorde God shall come in strength, and his arme shall hauehave the dominion: beholde his rewarde is with him, and his worke before him: As a sheepheard hee will feede his flocke, hee will gather the Lambes together on his arme and beare them in his bosome: in sin… suo leuabit? Beholde you greate and mightie doctours in the scriptures, the bosome of GOD as of a shephearde, is open to receiue all his Lambes; howe much more as a father to receiue his children? But to the argument you aunswere: The rewarde of righteousnesse may belong to one, and yet not payed him, as soone as hee dyeth. Saincte Paule saying expresly of Abraham and many of his children, that they departed not receiuing the promises, but beholding them a farre off: and all these renouned by faith, receiued not the promise. That is (saith Bristowe) the inheritance, the rewarde of righteousnesse: I replye, the rewarde of righteousnesse cannot belonge to one, but it must bee payed him as soone as it is payed vntounto others, to whome the same rewarde, vppon the same cause belongeth: therefore seeing it is payed to some immediately after their death, it is likewise to all. That manie dyed not receiuing the promises, is partelie vnderstoode of the promises of the lande of Canaan, partelye of the full fruition and perfection of rewarde, which to all men is denyed before the laste p. 151iudgement, and so no inequalitie or vniustice vntounto any.

Whether since Christ all goe straight Bristowe.to heauen.

They that liue vntounto Christe, dye vntounto him, and being Fulke.disolued are with him. The soules of the faithfull and the repentant are where Christ is, as hee prayeth …oan 17. so hee saith to the theefe, no perfecte iuste …an, but a sinner repentaunt, This day thou shalt …ee with mee in Paradise, Luke 23. And Saincte P…ule desireth to bee dissolued and to bee with Christ.

To leaue his iugling of seeing Christes godheades glorie, and manhoodes glorie, whereof I speake no worde, hee confesseth the example of Sainct Paul declareth, that a per…ect iust man goeth straight to Christ: Likewise the example if the theefe declareth, that a penitent sinner, goeth straight to Christ, if either his penaunce bee full and perfect, or his pardon, which is a remission of his penance be plenarie. By this you perceiue that penance with him is taken for punishment satisfactory, and not for repentaunce of the hearte and true conuersion vntounto GOD: But there is a plenarie pardon and satisfaction for all sinnes giuen to euerie penitent sinner: therefore eueryevery penitent sinner goeth streight to Christ whom we knowe and beleeue to be in heauen. The minor is proued, by sainct Iohn, 1. Iohn 2. Iesus Christ is our aduocate and propitiation for our sinnes. The bloude of Iesus Christe doth purge vsus from all sinnes.

Secondly hee saith, I allude to a place, Romans 14. wee liue to our Lorde, and wee die to our Lord: whereby nothing else is ment, but that hee is our iudge in life and death. A bare exposition, if wee hauehave no more comforte by liuing to the Lorde, then that hee shall bee our iudge at our death. Howe be it I grounde not myne argument onelye, of that phrase, to p. 152controll Augustines exposition of them that die in the Lorde, Apoca. 14. for martyrs onelyonly, as you slaunder mee, but compare other places of the faithfull, that are asleepe in Christ, 1. Corin. 15. And they that are deade in Christ, 1. Thessalonians 4. where the phrases being all one, with that of Apoca. 14. blessed are the deade that dye in the Lorde, that text cannot bee restrained onelyonly to the blessednesse of martyrs, but extendeth to the happinesse of all that are deade in the Lorde, which are all the faithfull. But the circumstance of the place (saith Bristowe) giueth it to bee meant of martyrs. I aunswere, there is no circumstance that can proue it to bee spoken onelyonly of Martyrs) seeing the argument of their blessednesse, is dying in the Lorde, whiche is common to all the faithfull, therefore blessednesse also, and that is the iudgement of S. Augustine de ciu. dei lib. 20 Cap. 9. whatsoeuer Allen or you prate to the contrarie. For after the text rehearsed he writeth thus vponupon it. Reg. nat itaque: The Church therefore nowe first reineth with Christ in the lyuing, and in the deade. For therefore (as the Apostle saith) Christ dyed, that he shoulde be Lorde ouer the liuing and ouer the deade. But therefore he named onelyonly the soules of the Martyrs, because they as the chiefe, reigne being deade, which vntounto death striued for the truthe. But by a part we vnderstand the whole, euen the rest that are deade pertaining to the Church which is the kingdom of Christ.

Whether that iudgement may stande with Purgatorie.Bristowe.

My first argument he maketh of the true falling to the North or South and so resting, which in deede is Fulke.no argument of myne, neither doe I thinke the texte Eccle 11. to be vnderstoode of the state of men after this life: onelyonly I shew that Allen by his glosses, hath not satisfied them that so expounde it, of whom one is S. Hierom. Purg, 436. 439. 441. Indeede Purg 281. I said, immediately after death (as M. Allen confesseth) followeth iudgement, but prayers either neede not or boote not, p. 153where the partie is either acquited or condemned, by …e sentence of the iudge, which, as Augustine saith, can…ot be indifferent betweene reward and punishment. De …b. arb. lib. 3. Cap. 23. To this he aunswereth first that saint …ugustine there saith the contrary, as I shal see if I reade …e place. Why sir, I read it thus: Superfluo quaeri de meri…s, &c. In vaine doe men moue a question of his merits, which hath deserued nothing, speaking of the death of …n infant) neque enim: for it is not to be feared, least his …fe coulde hauehave beene media, meane or indifferent, be…weene well doing and sinne: Et sententia iudicis media es… non possit inter praemium atque supplicium, and the sentence …f the iudge cannot bee meane or indifferent, betweene …ewarde and punishment. This I trust shall suffice of my …eading, vntill wee see what you reade to the contrarie. …ut to mine argument, Bristowe aunswereth for them …at are condemned to hell, prayers boote not: of them …at are acquited, some streight rewarded in their soules, …o… which they neede no prayers, but yet not rewarded … their bodies for which they pray, Apoc. 6. vntill they …e hearde, Apoc. 11. other not streight rewarded in their …ules, of which some be without sense of punishment, as … Limbo other be punished temporally, &c. If it bee …wfull to make such diuisions and subdiuisions, with…ut the authoritie of the scriptures, we may imagine what we will. But sir, for them that be acquited of sin, and can hauehave no meane sentence betweene reward and punishment, how can their rewarde be deferred or how can they be punished for sinne, which are acquited therof? As for them that lacke the rewarde of their bodie, it …s that they may receiue it in time most conuenient, both for the glorie of God and for the commodities of …ll the saincts of God together. As for the martyrs, Apoc. 6, I finde they complayned for iustice against their murtherers, I finde not that they prayed for the reward of their body: which complaint is to be vnderstoode rather of the desert of the wicked persecuters then of the affection of the holy martyrs. The bloude of Abel cried vengaunce, yet Abel patiently suffered death. The p. 154differences of punishment for being angrie saying …ac…, & fatue, proue difference of damnation greater for greater offences, but not of punishment lesse then damnation due for the least, seing our sauiour Christ appointeth the same guiltinesse for vnaduised anger, which the Pharisees did for murther: who neuer were so farre past all shewe of honestie, to make murther a veniall sinne, not deseruing damnation, as you doe.

Another argument is out of Matth. 7. of the two wayes, if there bee but two wayes in this life, there are but two abiding places after this life. To this Bristowe aunswereth, although the argument bee not mine, but an obiection that Allen taketh on him to aunswere: First that in the wide way some goe wider then some, with infinite varietie, but all to damnation presently: Secondly in the narrowe way, some goe narrower then some with infinite varietie, yet all in the narrowe way: Ergo say I, all straight to saluation. Although in a way so narrowe, that it is called foreign … thrusting way, or a way, whose sides are thrust together, that there shoulde bee such infinite varietie of narrownesse, which must also import an infinite widenes, it is against all reason, and the worde of the texte. Wherefore it cannot bee the way of merites but of faith.

Another argument is of the text 2. Cor. 5. We shall all stande before the iudgement seate of Christ, that euerie one may receiue in his bodie according to such things as he hath done either good or euill. Therefore the prayers or deedes of other men helpe not. To this he aunswereth out of Augustine, that the deade in our Lorde, hath in his life deserued, that these workes after his death might be profitable to him. Against which authoritie, he saith, I hauehave no reply, to maintain that scripture against such prayer, but onelyonly oppose a saying of Hierom. I think the scripture it selfe is a sufficient replie against all authoritie of man. Euerie man shall receiue according to his owne workes, and not according to the workes of other men, as for the deserte of man, it is p. 155nothing but vntounto damnation. And yet that argument is …ected by Allen, not framed by me.

An other argument I hauehave of the iudgement of God, …r. 85. If Purgatory be so necessarie to satisfie Gods iu…e by temporall paynes of sinners according to the …e, &c. and Purgatory shall cease, as you affirme out … Augustine: How shall the same be satisfied in them …t dye immediately before the day of iudgement, so …t they hauehave not had time inough there to be suffici…tly purged? The like may be demaunded of all them …ich in a moment shalbe chaunged from mortalitie … immortalitie at the very comming of Iesus Christe … to iudgement? These are two doughtie questions …yeth Bristowe, for aunswere of which he asketh me, …here I finde that principle in Allen? That Purgato… is necessarie to satisfie according to the time. For…oth sir, Where he sayeth, if any debt remaine to be dischar…d it must needes rise by proportion, weight, continuance, number …d quantitie of the faultes, whereby it must of necessitie be indu…d, that because euerie man cannot hauehave time to repay all in his …e, that there is all, or some part aunswerable in the worlde to …e. Here sir of faultes we hauehave proportion, weight, …ntinuance, number, quantitie, therefore we must …aue satisfaction in purgatorie according to propor…on, weight, continuance, number, quantitie of them, …xcept you wil as well denie the proportion, weight, number, & quantitie of faultes to bee regarded in Purgatory, as the time. Wherefore if a great proportion of faultes deserue a greate proportion of punishment, heauy faultes, heauie punishment, many faultes, many strypes, great faultes, great paynes: what reason hauehave you, why long continuance in faults should not deserue long continuance in Purgatorie? You aunswere a short time in great paine, will satisfie for long penance in this life.

But where is the continuance of sinnes by Allens necessitie to be payed in proportion of long time in Purgatorie? So that in effecte, you aunswere, but p. 156without book y^t the fornace of Purgatorie toward y^t … of y^e world must be heated whot, because y^e soules … tary there the shorter time. With such inuentions … may answere any question. But I seeke a resolution … of the word of God, or good reason agreeable thereto.

To the 2. question, you answere, it is not … to Gods merciemercy, to remit such punishment at … … quest of his glorious Saintes, as he nowe doeth …or … Churches prayers. But seeing the Saintes know not … sodennes of that moment, howe shall they pray for … discharge of them that deserue to goe to purgatorie. … they pray for it continually, why pray they not, as … to discharge all other men from purgatory, as those th… shal remaine aliue at the comming of Christe? And where you say it is not repugnant to his merciemercy, it is not the matter in question, but howe it may stand with … iustice, which as you holde, requireth satisfaction by temporall punishment. For otherwise we know it standeth both with his iustice, and his merciemercy, y^t they whiche obteine forgiuenes of their sinnes by Christ, should immediately after their death be receiued into the fellowshippe of them that are likewise made righteous by him. Augustine is quoted De Ciu. Dei. lib. 21. Cap. 24. where the question is moued, but not answered, and yet the place is corrupted and inforced, as Ludovicus Vives confesseth. In that Chapter Augustine reasoneth, against them which helde that God after the iudgement, would release all the damned at the prayers of his saints. In the 27. Chapter, which he also quoteth, there is nothing to the question.

Whether faith, hope, and Gods will, may stand with Purgatorie.Bristowe.

This argument is gathered Pur. 381. If it be against the hope of Christians, to mourne for the deade, much Fulke.more it is against the hope and faith of Christians, to pray for them. For by our prayer, we suppose them p. 157…e in miserie, whom the worde of God doeth testifie …e in happinesse, to be at rest, to be with Christ. Ioh. Apoc. 14. Bristow answereth: those Scriptures proue that they be straightway in happinesse, &c. as he … shewed, and I hauehave shewed the contrary, that they …roue it, notwithstanding all his impudent cauilati…. Secondly, he saith, it is not against hope to mourne, … to mourne as the Gentiles, which knowe not the …rrection. Neither do I say that all mourning is a…st hope, but such mourning as supposeth them to …n miserie, or to be lost, as the Papistes, & Paganes …? Our mourning for the delay of the kingdome God, as he vnderstandeth it, for the generall resurre…n, is for our present miserie, and therefore lawfull …e ioyned with hope. But mourning for the dead, whose happinesse the Scripture assureth vsus, is a…nst faith, therefore contrary to hope.

…nother argument in the same place is: All places …cripture that forbidde prayers without faith, for…de prayers for the deade. For faith is an assurance … of the worde of God, &c.

This argument (saith Bristow) supposeth, that the …de of God is only Scripture. Yea verily it suppo…, that only Scripture is the warrant of Gods worde, we hauehave before mainteined and also answered, to … Apocryphall Booke of the Machabees.

A third argument is, Pur. 281. We learne out of Gods …rde, that whatsoeuer we pray for according to his …ll, we shall obteine. 1. Iohn. 5. Prayers for the dead … not according to the will of God, and therefore they … not heard at al. Bristow denieth the minor, which he …th, I hauehave not proued. Yes verily, I proue it because y^e …dgement followeth immediately after death: and in …dgement, God wil heare no prayers. And therefore …istowes exposition for him that sinneth a sinne not …to death, and shameful addition, Let him after his death …quest of Christ, and life shalbe giuen vntounto him, is false, and …surde, although he saith, he hath giuen the plaine & smoth …se of the whole place, which is to be vnderstoode of p. 158men liuing and not of the dead. A smooth expos… If one see his brother sinne, he must pray for him a… his death. Againe, he vrgeth the present temps, who … knoweth his brother to sinne a sinne not to death, … one (saith Bristowe) that liued in schisme, but yet … reconciled before he died. O monstrous and more th… palpable blindenesse! be these verbes, liued, reconc… dyed, of the present or preterperfect temps, which t… deniest the Apostle to hauehave vsed. But omit the te… which he calleth him, a brother which liueth in schis… How much more soundly may I reason vponupon the present temps? Saint Iohn biddeth vsus pray for a brother … ning: but a brother sinning, is onelyonly liuing: therefore S. Iohn biddeth vsus pray only for a brother liuing. For they y^t are in Purgarorie, neither deserue nor sinne, by your owne confession. As for the sinne against the holy Ghost, which we say is not to be prayed for at all, he threateneth often, to consute in the 12. Chapter. In the meane time it is euident that Purgatorie for any thing that is hitherto applyed by Bristow, remaineth confuted by sufficient argumentes and authoritie of the Scriptures.

The fourth parte concerning all other questions, that he mentioneth Bristowe.and first of good workes in generall, Iustification, & Free will.

Remitting the questions of the witnesses of Gods Fulke.worde, vntounto fiue motives in the 10. Chapter: where I alledge that good workes do not iustifie two places, one of Saint Paul, another of Esaie, he holdeth the contrary, that works do iustifie. And first calling me a falsary, because I recite not the very wordes of the Apostle, which was not my purpose, but to shew what we do affirme out of that texte of the Apostle, he saith, iustification by workes, is not denied by that text of Saint Paule, Rom. 3. We holde that a man is iustified by faith without the workes of the lawe, for it is to be vnderstoode of workes going before Baptisme, and not of workes following p. 159…aptisme, because Saint Iames saith a man is iustified of …orkes and not of faith onelyonly. To this I aunswere …aint Paul speaketh of iustification before God: Saint …ames of iustification before men. Saint Paul of a faith which worketh by louelove: Saint Iames of a bare know…edge, a barren and dead faith, a faith that is voide of good workes.

And that Saint Paule speaketh generally of all good workes, it is manifest by this reason, that he saith, boa…ting is excluded, not by the lawe of workes, but by the …awe of faith: what manner of exclusion were it, to shut …ut boasting for a moment, while one is baptized, and …mmediately after receiue it againe, by defending iustification by workes. Againe he sayeth immediately after, …t is one God which shal iustifie circūcision which is of faith, and vncircumcision through faith, y^t is the circum…ised, & the vncircumcised are al iustified by faith, as A…raham in both the states was iustified by faith, without the workes of the law, although, (as Iames sayth) he was …ustified before men, by his oblation, which was but a …riall of his faith, and obedience. Where the Apostle …ayeth, Tit. 3. not by the workes of righteousnes which we hauehave done, but according to his owne great merciemercy, …e saved vsus by baptisme: Bristowe asketh, if I marke the temps. Yea, very well, he speaketh of workes before faith. And doth it therefore followe, that works done after faith, doe iustifie? Saint Paule extendeth the saluation (which is sealed vntounto vsus by the lauer of newe birth, and renewing of the holy Ghoste, which he hath poured richly vponupon vsus by Iesus Christ our sauiour, vntounto eternall life: therefore it followeth, that beeing iustified by his grace, we might be made heires according to the hope of eternall life. VponUpon the 2. text Es. 64. I saide: the Popish Church is not content to be clothed in the white shining silke, which is the iustification of Saintes, made white in the bloud of the lambe, but with the filthy ragges of mannes righteousnesse. Bristowe asketh where I learned, to call the good workes done in the Church, the filthy ragges of mans righteousnesse? p. 160Verily, euen of Esaie who speaketh in the person of the Church: All we are as an vncleane person, and all our righteousnesse, as filthy ragges. For although God accept our workes, that are done in faith, and pardon their imperfection, yet when they are obtruded vntounto him, to iustifie vsus, he abhorreth them, as in the Pharisee Luke 18. That the iustifications of the Saintes. Apoc. 19. are good workes, Bristowe would hauehave it appeare by conference of 1. Iohn. 3. He that worketh iustice is iust, where he reasoneth of the effectes of a iust man, & not of the cause. No flesh is iust by workes of the law, but by faith, by which God maketh iust, euen the vngodly man. But how much better conference is it, to know, what the white … meaneth, which is the iustification of Saintes, to compare it with other places of the same prophecie, as Apoc. 7. where it is shewed, howe the stoles of the faithful are made white, with the bloud of the lambe, and with the place of Saint Paule shewing how the Church is made white, and without spotte and wrinckle by the death of Christ? Ephe. 5.

Touching freewill, I saide, we beleeue, that man after his fall, hath not free will, no not aptnesse of will to thinke any thing that is good. 2. Cor. 3. Bristow translateth the worde, we are not sufficient, but the text is foreign We are not apte, to thinke any thing of our selues as of our selues, but our foreign aptnes, is of God. To this Bristowe replyeth, that naturall free will is not taken from vsus, nor naturall aptnes of will. I hope he speaketh like a Philosopher, and not like a flat Pelagian. But I speake as a Christian of the fredome of mans will vntounto good, which is none but bondage vntounto euill, except he be regenerate, and then is his will framed of God in parte, to good, but not perfectly in this life, as regeneration is not perfectly finished before the redemption of our bodies: as for freedome opposite to coaction, if Bristowe meane that, by reteyning of free will, I graunt eueryevery mans will to be free from constreint, but not from seruilitie vntounto sinne. Whereof Saint complaineth, Rom 7.

Moreouer I saide Pur. 35. how should your free will …e mainteined, if Gods spirite hauehave any place, that di…ributeth to euerie one according to the good pleasure …f his owne will? 1. Cor. 12. Bristowes aunswere is, that God can worke his owne will vponupon our willes, which is …ery true, but without working of Gods spirite, our will …ath no aptnesse vntounto any good thing. Againe he saith, …hat Saint Paule speaketh of the giftes, that are freely gi…en, and not of them, that make a man acceptable, as …hough there were any gifts, which are not freely giuen. And it is euident that he speaketh generally of all working of Gods spirite, euen of confessing Iesus to be Christ, and not of speciall graces onelyonly. So that Bristowes aunswere is nothing to the purpose, or matter …n question. For I holde, that we hauehave no aptenesse vntounto …ny good, of our owne freewill, but onelyonly of the grace of God. Bristow saith, I imagine that God is not omni…otent, if we hauehave willes of our owne, which I neuer …enied: but that we hauehave willes of out owne vntounto good, before they be framed therto by Gods spirit, is the thing … denye.

About good workes in speciall, namely prayer to Saintes, Bristowe.…astinge, merites.

Concerning inuocation of Saints, I saide Purg. 451. Fulke.wee call not vponupon Saints, because we beleeue not in thē: for how should wee call vponupon them in whom wee beleue not? Rom. 10. To this (reseruing a pretended contradiction to the proper place) he saith: first that Saint Paule, did often inuocate & call vppon the faithfull, beseching them to pray for him, which is a toye to mocke with an Ape, for Saint Paule did not inuocate or pray to them as vntounto them that knewe his hearte, and could helpe his greefe, but onelyonly of charitie desireth their prayers. Secondly he asketh, where is any Scripture, that we must beleeue in God onelyonly? Forsooth, amongst many, this shal suffice, which is written in Ieremie Cap. 17. Cursed is the man that trusteth in man, p. 162and maketh flesh his arme, and his heart departeth from the Lord. But that it is lawfull to bêleue in Saints also, Bristowe quoteth Exod. 14. where it is said, the people beleeued God, and Moses his seruant, as though there were no difference betweene giuing credite to Gods Prophets, and beleeuing in them, which is to put our trust in them. The like I saie to the seconde place, quoted 2. Par. 20. where Iosaphat promiseth all things prosperous to the people, if they giuegive credite to Gods Prophets, Credite Prophetis eius. But forlaking his vulgar authentical translation, he prouoketh vsus to the Hebrue, belyke because of the preposition, beth, which is a miserable shift: Seing the Hebrue phrase is well knowen, to differ from the Latine, and English phrase, and especially from the sense of beleuing, that is trusting in God, which is peculiar to him and ought not to be in any creature, which is not God.

He quoteth also Philemon, whose louelove & faith the Apostle commendeth towardes the Lorde Iesu, and towards all his Saints, where euerie wise man seeth that faith is referred to Christ, and louelove to the Saints. But the scripture reacheth him to beleeue (he saith) in Christ according to his humanity and namely in his blood. Iohn. 14. Rom. 3. He will proue an Arian or a Nestorian shortly. The place of Iohn proueth the diuinity of Christ, because he is to be beleeued on, euen as God. And where the Apostle saith, that God hath made Christ a propitiation through faith in his blood, he meaneth not that we must beleue in the blood of Christ, as it is a creature, but that the death and bloodshedding of Christ, is the meane of our reconciliation vntounto God. But the Nicene Creede & Hieronyme, contra Lucif. vse the phrase of Credere in Ecclesiam, to beleeue in the Church. I answere, they meane no more thereby, then they which vse the distinction Credere in Deum, Credere Deo, & Credere Deum, which Bristowe saith hath deceiued me. Augustine (as Bristowe confesseth) maketh it proper to God, that we beleeue in him

We beleeue not in Peter, we beleeue not in Paule. p. 163In Iohn. 129. Neither saith the Nicene Creede, or Hieronyme contrary thereto, that we should put our whole trust and confidence in the Church, but in God only. Therfore although they speak otherwise then Augustine, they meane not otherwise then he. Ruffinus also in his exposition of the Creede, writeth both plainly and effectually: Sequitur namque post, &c. For it followeth after this saying: The holy Catholique Church, the remission of sinnes, the resurrection of the bodie: he saith not in the holy Catholique Church, in the remission of sinnes, in the resurrection of the fleshe. For if he had added, the preposition, In, the sense should hauehave bene made one, and the same with the former articles. But euen in those termes truly, where faith is ordered of the diuinitie, it is saide, in God the father, and in Christ his sonne, and in the holy Ghost. But in the rest, where the speach is not of the Godhead, but of creatures and the mysteries, the preposition, In, is not added, that it should be said we must beleeue in the holy Church, but the holy Church: not as God, but as the Church gathered into God. And that men should beleue, that there is remission of sinnes, not in the remission of sinnes, that they should beleeue the resurrection of the body, not in the resurrection of the body. Therefore by this syllable of the Preposition, the Creator is distinguished from the creatures, and things diuine, are separated from things humane.

Neuerthelesse, Bristowe saith, they beleue both in God, in Christ and in his Saints, and inuocate them all, though not all alyke, but then let him heare, what Cyprian saith, De duplici Martyrio. Non credit in Deum, qui non in eo solo collocat totius faelicitatis suae fiduciam. He beleueth not in God, which placeth not in him alone, the hope of his whole felicity. Whervpon it followeth, y^t they which beleeue in saints, & place some part of their hope of felicite in thē, & not in God alone, by his iudgment, & by y^e iudgment of y^e Apostle also beleeue not in God. Where I said, if Saints also are to be inuocated, then God alone knoweth not the heartes of all men, p. 164and God onelyonly is not to be worshipped and serued, and Christ is not our onelyonly Mediatour and Aduocate: Bristowe calleth it iangling, without allegations. I supposed these principles had bene sufficiently knowen to euerie learned Papist, without allegations, but seeing Bristowe will not take knowledge of them, because he knoweth not how to shift his handes of them. For the first, my allegation shall be 1. Reg. 8. Salomon in his prayer sayth vntounto God: What prayers or supplications shalbe made of any man, or of all thy people Israel, when euerie one shal knowe the plague in his own hart, and stretche foorth his handes in this house, Heare thou then in heauen in thy dwelling place, and be merciful, and doe and giuegive eueryevery man according to all his wayes as thou knowest his heart, for thou onelyonly knowest the harts of al the children of men. For the second, that God only is to be worshiped and serued, it is the saying of our sauiour Christ, Math. 4. & Luk 4. Thou shalt worship the Lorde thy God, and him only shalt thou serue.

That Christe onelyonly is our Mediator and Aduocate, Saint Paule testifieth 1. Timoth. 2. there is but one God and one mediatour of God and men, the man Iesus Christ, in which place he speaketh of Prayer, supplications, intercessions, &c. to be made for all men. And Saint Iohn 1. Ioh. 2. If any man sinne, we hauehave an aduocate with the father Iesus Christ the righteous and he is the propitiation for our sins. But, saith Brist, as I say to Ambrose, & others whom I confesse to be of the true Church, so must I saie it to Saint Iohn Apoc. 1. for inuocating the holy Angells. But I finde not that Iohn did inuocate the holy Angels, in that place, although the seuen spirites from whom he wisheth grace, should not be the holy Ghost, but Angels the ministers of the holy Ghost. For he that prayeth that God will sende raine from heauen, doth not inuocate heauen. But I must saie the same to God him self, for making an Angell to be worshiped as Apoc. 3. as he hath told me in the. 6. Chapiter, where I hauehave told him mine answere. likewise to the Angell Apoc. 8. Which made a perfume with the prayers of Saintes, and to the 24. Seniors which had sweete odours, that is, prayers in bowles, &c. But there is no such neede, the Angell Apoc. 8. representeth Christe, the onelyonly high priest that hath authoritie to stande at the altar in heauen, and offer incense, and to present the prayers of the Churche, that they may be acceptable to God. Heb. 13. The Elders are the Churche of God, in the whole world, whose prayers and supplications, only our sauiour Christ maketh acceptable. But it maketh nothing against our Mediatour to God, saith Bristowe, though we are and hauehave neuer so many Mediatours, so y^t all make suite to God by him. Then it maketh no matter howe many petie Gods we hauehave, so one be principal, as Plato taught. Againe he saith: it is nothing against God alone, to be worshipped, so that we worshippe none but for him. If this were true, it were lawfull to worship the Diuel, because hee is Gods minister, and hath great power vnderunder him: yea our Sauiour Christ had not aunswered his temptation, when he required to be worshipped, as one that had all the glorie of the world committed by God to him to bestowe at his pleasure, in saying it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lorde thy God, and him only shalt thou serue. Last of all, he saith it is nothing against God aboue, to know our harts, so y^t all others knowe them by him. But Salomon reasoneth that God onelyonly is to be called vponupon, because he onelyonly knoweth the heartes of all men. And where findeth Bristowe, that all others, or any one by God, knoweth the heartes of all men? To conclude, the worde onelyonly, excludeth no more with Bristowe, then he list to admitte by his blinde distinctions, which if they may be permitted against the plaine sense and wordes of the Scriptures, nothing shalbe left proper to God, nothing proper to our Sauiour Christe, nothing proper to any thing, that the Scripture maketh peculiar vntounto it.

The next title is fasting, about which Bristowe reporteth, that I say: Purg. 391. You are they that attend to spirites of errors, & doctrine of deuils, forbidding to p. 166marry, & abstaining, or commaunding to abstaine from meates, which God hath created to bee receiued with thanksgiuing. 1. Tim. 4. There is the brandmarke of Romish religion, that all the water in Tiberis, nor in the Ocean sea, shall not be able to wash out. Against this: Soft alitle (sayeth Bristowe) and you shall see mee drawe inough & inough againe, euen out of your owne puddle, to wash all sufficiently. But what draweth hee? I confesse that Aerius & Iouinian condemned fasting or fasting dayes? what then? Abstinence from certeine meates is a question distinct from fasting, which is abstinence from all meates. But Iouinian (sayeth hee) taught abstinence from certeine meates to profite nothing. Well: Aerius contrariwise taught abstinence from fleshe to be a religious matter, as you Papistes doe. For to absteine from wine, fleshe, fishe, spices, fruites, or any thing which perteyneth to sobrietie, is not to thinke it vnlawfull to eate or drinke any of these, at this tyme, or that time, as it is thought of you Papistes, and a matter of more holynesse, to fill your belly with fishe, then with fleshe, although the fish, wyne, fruites, spices, and such like confections as you eate, be tenne times more dangerous vntounto sobrietie and chastitie, then a piece of beef… or bacon, which a poore man eateth on a fryday to satisfie his hunger, and giueth God thankes for it. Your publike admitting of all incentiue meates & drinkes, except flesh or white meate on your fasting dayes, sufficiently declareth, that neither fasting nor chastisement of mens bodyes is your intent: but as the Apostle sayeth, false speaking in hypocrisie. But whome and what doeth Saint Paul meane (sayeth Bristowe?) Hee aunswereth, the Manichees, the Tacianistes, and other heretikes, which sayde, that certeine meates were the creatures of the diuell. Nay Bristowe, not them onelyonly, nor principally; but all other heretikes that sayde, fleshe was vncleane, although they confessed it to be the creature of God, as the Aeriaus and Priscillianistes, and specially the Papistes, which vnderunder pretence of holynesse, as fasting and chastitie, commaunde to abstaine from meates and marriage. For they that abstaine from these things, saying they are the creatures of the diuell, speake not a lye in hypocrisie, but an open blasphemie. As for the example of them, whose voluntarie abstinence from meates or marriage, Saint Augustine defendeth, contra Faust. lib. 30. Cap. 6. cannot excuse you, which forbid meates and marriage, more imperiously to some men at all times, and to all men at some times, then euer the Manichees did to their cleargie, or priests, which they called perfect ones.

Another saying of myne, Art. 46. Bristowe repeateth: If Iouinian taught that fasting, abstinence from certeine meates, and other bodily exercises, of them selues profite little, his doctrine agreeth with the doctrine of Saint Paul, 1. Timothie. 4. But if he taught, as hee is charged, that such thinges profite nothing at all, wee agree not with him in that opinion.

To this (Bristowe sayeth) I woulde fayne wype myne handes of Iouinians heresie, but it will not bee: For his heresie was, that fasting and abstinence is not more meritorious then eating with thankesgiuing. If you call this heresie, I am nothing ashamed of it: there is no more merite in the one than in the other. But howe prooue you that was his heresie? Forsooth Augustine De dogm. Eccles. Cap. 68. so sayeth. But who shall graunt vntounto him, that bastarde collection to be of Saint Augustines penning? Well then the vndoubted Augustine, ad Quodvult enim sayeth: meritis adaequabat, hee made equall to the merites, of chaste and faithfull matrimonies, the virginitie, &c.

But hee that is acquainted with Saint Augustines writinges, shall perceiue that by merites, often times he meaneth not as the Papistes doe, the desert of good works, but y^e dignitie, excellency, commendation. p. 168For merites in that signification as the Papistes vse, he alwayes condemneth them in the Pelagians, and all other, saying that God crowneth or rewardeth in vsus his giftes, not our merites. For our merites are nothing but sinnes in Psal. 70. Con. 2. in Psa. 101. in Psa. 144.

Now hauehave we to see, what Saint Paul calleth bodily exercise. Bristowe sayth: walking, ryding, hunting, hawking, and such like exercises, vsed for preseruation of mens bodies. And thinke you Timothie, which to chastice his bodie, vsed to absteine from wine, was doubted of S. Paul, lest he should giuegive him selfe ouermuch to walking, riding, hawking, hunting? At least wise, heare what S. Ambrose writeth vppon the text, Exercitium autē corporale, &c. He saith, that bodily exercise is profitable to litle. For to fast and abstaine from meates, the authoritie of the creator remaining, doth not profit much, except godlinesse be added vntounto these things, &c. Let Bristowe s…ye, that S Ambrose knewe not white from black, as he saith of mee, and looke better to his conference, of S. Paules abstinence, 1. Cor. 9. from all things y^e were offensiue. But where he concludeth, the measure of all abstinence is to tame the bodie, and bring it in subiection to the spirite, but with such moderation, that it fainte not in our necessarie worke, I agree with him, that so it ought to be, but that so it is not, nor yet entended in the popish commaundment of abstinence, as I hauehave shewed before sufficiently: As for the fasting of y^t children of the bridegrome, like to the fastes prescribed by the disciples of Saint Iohn, and of the Pharisees, it is impertinent to speake of, where y^e question is not of Christian fasting, but of apostaticall abstinence from meates and marriage: although Christian fasting, is nothing like to the Pharisaicall fasting, but onelyonly in refraining from meate, in the ende and manner altogether differing and vnlike. Math. 6. Luke. 18.

About the Sacraments in generall.Bristowe.

p. 169Of the Sacraments in generall, I say: Pur. 450. Wee Fulke.…eleeue that there are but two sacraments of the newe …estament, baptisme, and the Lordes supper, instituted by Christe. 1. Cor. 10. Bristowe asketh, if these be sacraments of the newe testament instituted by Christ, which Saint Paul speaketh of baptisme in the clowd and s…, and of the spirituall meate and drinke in Manna and the rocke. Because he doeth onelyonly aske, it shall suffice to aunswere onelyonly, yea, they are sacraments of the newe testament, and instituted by Christe, the mediatour of the newe testament, by which our fathers were saued, although by Christe comming in the fleshe, they were …nstituted differing somewhat in externall fourme and matter, though in inwarde grace and signification they were all one.

Secondly, supposing they are sacraments of the new …estament, by Christ instituted, he asketh what reason …t is, to argue of one place negatiuely, onelyonly two are …amed, ergo onelyonly two are instituted. I aunswere, the argument is not of the onelyonly naming of two, but of the whole argument of the Apostle, which is, to proue, that …he fathers in participation of the sacramentes, were equall with vsus, which were not sufficiently proued, if hauing named onelyonly two, there were other fiue, wherein wee are superior to them: So that the naming of two, is in this place the excluding of all other except those two. Nowe let vsus discusse Bristowes reasons for the number of Sacraments to be seuen. Wee read of the other fiue in other places. Where I pray you? Of Confirmation, Iohn the 7. You reade more then I can finde there named or signified, except you meane of the increase of Gods spirite in more excellent and euident graces, which the faithfull shoulde receiue after the resurrection and ascension of Christe, which differeth farre from confirmation of children by imposition of handes.

Of Penance, you read Iohn. 20. Of power giuen to the Apostles to remit and reteine sinnes: I reade but of p. 170duplicate page p. 171duplicate page p. 170auricular confession and satisfaction, I reade not.

Of extreme vnction, you reade Iac. 5: of annoynting the sicke with oyle, which by a speciall gift recouered health of body, as well as remission of sinnes, at the prayer of the faithfull, I reade: but of anealing men desperatly sicke, which hath no hope of bodily recouerie, I reade not.

Of orders, you reade, Math. 26. but I reade nothing at all, although I reade that the Apostles were commaunded to continue the celebration of his supper instituted by him, which were before ministers of his sacramentes and preachers of his worde; but of Bennet and Collet, coniurer, subdeacon, or masse priest, I reade not in all the Scripture, nor of Deacon in that Chapter.

Of Matrimonie, both yet and I reade Math. 19 but not instituted at that time by Christ, but long before in Paradise, and is no more a sacrament of the newe testament, then the raynebowe, which yet with the couenant thereof remaineth in vse among Christians. But you confesse you reade not in those places, that they are sacramentes, no more doe you reade, 1. Cor. 10. that baptisme, or the Lordes supper are sacraments or any where else. This is a stale quarrell, of the name of sacramentes, which is not founde in Scripture, although the thing signified by the name, that is y^e seales of Gods promises, and the name of signe of Gods couenants be often founde.

But your laste refuge is, that the Apostle speaketh onelyonly of the firste entrance into Christianitie, which in antiquitie was by baptisme, confirmation, the complement of baptisme, and the Euchariste, and therefore speaketh not of the rest. Beside that this fantasie is manifestly contrarie to the Apostles purpose, which was to shewe, that the externall sacramentes of Gods grace, without a godly life, woulde not serue to assure vsus, that God was pleased withvs: it is cleare, that the Corinthians, among whome Saint Paul so long p. 171had preached, coulde not bee without all other sacraments, if any other were. They had children to bee confirmed, they themselues were married, elders were to bee ordered, offenders by penaunce were to bee reconciled, manie were sicke, and some were fallen a sleepe, to bee anealed. And Saincte Paule saith expressely, they were behinde in no grace or gifte of Gods spirite. 1. Corinth. 1. Wherefore, that they were younge nouices newely entred the barres, and not knightes exercised in battell, it is a dreame of Bristowes drowsi… heade, and no trueth to bee verified of the Corinthians.

Secondly I say, of the sacramentes in generall, that they giuegive not grace ex opere operato, of the worke wrought, but after the faith of the receiuer and according to the election of Go…. …. Corin. 10. Againe, howe should the sacrament giuegive grace of the worke wrought, if faith were requisite in them that receiue them? This argument, saith Bristowe, holdeth aswell against the working of Christs passion. Why sir, the passiō of Christ giueth not grace, but to the faithfull and electe of God.

But faith, you say, is no work, nor instrumēt, but only a dispofition as drynesse in wodde, that the fire worketh vppon. I will not enter into any philosophicall disputation with you, whether it bee drinesse or moysture in the wodde that the fire worketh vponupon, perhaps you thinke, that water is moyster then ayre, which error, if you had no more, cannot make you an heretike.

But I meruaile, what cause you will make faith, seing you exclude it from efficients, except you make it a matter, for the sacraments to worke vponupon, or else I know not what you meane by y^t your disposition lyke drienesse in woode, which in deede is the thinne ayer, more apte to receiue inflammations, then the thicke water, but perhaps you make it onelyonly a potentia, like materia prima, for you adde, that by our indisposition wee doe not put obicem.

p. 172But you hold that the sacraments giuegive grace of the work wrought, without the good motion of the vser, onelyonly so hee doe no part obicem, that is, so he doe not withstand the working, as if a man be baptised sleeping, and thinking nothing of it. Neuerthelesse seing the scripture often affirmeth that God worketh in vsus by faith, faith must needes bee an instrumentall efficient, when you hauehave saide all that you can, except you will teach vsus newe gramer and Lògike. You confesse the scripture sayth, that by beleeuing and other good actions, wee worke our owne saluation, Phil. 2. as by way of meriting, but it saith not that we worke the effect of any sacrament: neither doe I say, that wee worke the effecte of any sacrament, but that God worketh in vsus according to faith, which he giueth vsus, and his election. You say further; that the scripture teacheth, that the passion of Christ giueth to our deedes vertue to merite: where is that scripture written? for vntill you shewe me where it is written, I will say still to you as I saide to Allen, y^e Church of Christ abhorreth that blasphemie, beleeuing stedfastly, that we are iustified freely by his grace through the redemptiō of Christ Iesus, without respect of our works. Rom. 3. 4.

But yet Bristowe will make men beleeue, that I shew manifolde ignorance, where I say Purg. 35. The meane on Gods behalfe by which we are made partakers of the fruites of Christes passion, and so graffed into his bodie, is his holy spirite of promise, which is the earnest and assuring of our inheritaunce: who worketh in vsus faith, as the onelyonly meane by which the righteousnesse of Christ is applyed vntounto vsus, Ephe. 1. And as for the sacramentes, (which you seeme to make the only conduites of Gods merciemercy) we are taught in the holy scriptures that they are the seales of Gods promises giuen for the confirmation of our faith, as was circumcision to Abraham, when he was iustified before through faith. Rom. 4.

Bristowes eyes being daseled at the cleere light of this trueth, turneth his heade away from the matter, and wrangleth against diuerse points of Caluinisme, as hee p. 173saith, but in deede of meere Bristowisme. For Caluin neuer helde any such matter as he imagineth: He asketh whether this be to say, that all men are iustified before they come to the sacrament, as though Caluin said they were. Whereas a great number are iustified neither before, nor after the receipt of them. But this is to say, that as Abraham was iustified by faith, without respect of the sacrament, so are all they that are iustified, iustified by faith, without respect of the sacrament. Secondly he asketh, whether all sacraments be seales of such a matter. Yea verely, or else saint Paul proueth the iustification of the Gentiles by faith, very feebly, after the example of Abraham. Thirdly hee asketh whether all Iewes were iustified, before they came to circumcision, which I neuer hearde any man to affirme, but that as many Iewes as were iustified, were iustified by faith, as Abraham was, circumcision no more regarded in their iustification, then it was in the iustification of Abraham. Last of all he asketh, whether circumcision were to the Iewes a seale of such a matter? still he calleth it such a matter, because he dare not name iustification by faith. O the stinge of a wicked conscience. But to the question. I aunswere that to y^e Iewes which were iustified by faith, circumcision was a seale of the righteousnesse of faith, which is imputed to them, as it was to Abraham without merite, or respect of their circumcision.

Other pointes of mine ignorance, he saith, are about the holy spirite of promise, whereof Saint Paul speaketh Ephe. 1. which I say is the meane, to make vsus partakers of the fruites of Christes passion: Item the meane to graffe vsus into his bodie: Item, that it worketh in vsus faith. In the conclusion, he noteth the ignorance of the Protestantes, where they holde, this spirite promised to be nothing else, but the gifte of tongues, that is to say, Christs greatest gifte, to be his least gifte. Out vponupon the shamelesse lyer, which of the Protestantes canst thou name, that so holdeth? We all holde that the holy spirite of promise, Ephes. 1. is the spirite of adoption, by which we are assured of eternall life. Rom. 8. And as for the spirite, prophecyed p. 174by Ioel, and Iohn Baptist, promised by Christ to be sent after his ascension, we holde not to be specially of the spirit of adoption, which the Apostles & al y^e faithfull had before Christes death, and much lesse of that spirit, which your Bishops giuegive by imposition of hands, in their counterfeit confirmation, which is the spirit of vanitie, whose fruites appeare not in any of the receiuers: But we holde that promised gifte of Gods spirit, to be that wonderful reuelation of knowledge and vnderstanding & vtterāce in all states & degrees of true Christians generally, beside a great number of particular giftes, not perpetuall, bestowed vponupon the Church in diuerse speciall members, for the certifying thereof in the first publishing of the gospel. As for your conference of scriptures, whereof you prate so much, is a meere confusion of matters of diuerse senses. According to which manner of conference, not weighing the sense of eueryevery place, by the proper circumstances thereof, but following onelyonly a sounde and similitude of some wordes, euerie heretike might colour his heresie, were it neuer so absurde, as the Valentinians of whom Irenaeus testifieth, that they patched diuerse sentences together, to make a shewe, as though their heresie were contained in holy write: which was nothing else, but as if a man breaking a goodly image of a king in peeces, shoulde of the peece after his owne manner ioyned together, make the image of a dogge, or a foxe or other foule beaste, Iren. lib. 1. Chapt. 1. such is your conference of the spirite of promise, wherewith the faithfull are sealed Ephes. 1. with the spirite of tongues and prophecie which came vppon the twelue, on whom saint Paul layed his hands. Acts 19. The last errour of faith hee chargeth mee, to bee the onelyonly meane, which hee saith, is no meane but a disposition, hee thinketh it sufficiently discouered before, wherevnto I also thinke that I hauehave made answere sufficiently.

About the sacramentes in speciall. The necessitie and effecte of baptisme.Bristowe.

Concerning baptisme, I say it is necessary for al christians p. 175Fulke.to receiue, that are not by necessity excluded from it. 1. Pet. 3. Bristow saith, it is necessarie for all men, but when it cannot be actually had, the effectuall desire of it supplyeth the want: which desire infantes hauehave not, and therfore onelyonly the actuall hauing of baptisme, doth quicken them in Christ, being dead in Adam. Touching the saluation of infants of the faithful dying without baptisme, I said nothing but by implication, that there is no such necessitie of Baptisme, that the want of the outwarde sacrament shoulde condemne the seede of the faithful, perteining to gods election & couenant, where there is no default, either of contempt or neglect of it. Ro. 9. Ge. 17. And seeing Bristow alloweth y^e effectuall desire in men of yeares to supply the want, which yet y^e wordes of his text, Iam. 3. of which he taketh colour and authoritie of his doctors, that condemne all vnbaptised infants wil not beare, what reason is it, why he should not extende his supply, vntounto the effectuall desire of those infants, parents, and friends, whose faith he acknoledgeth to supplie the want of actuall faith in the infants that are baptised? Beside this hee saith that he did mark wel ynough where I said y^t the sacramēts giuegive grace according to y^e election of God. As though all infants baptised, & so dying be not of Gods electe, or that some be not saued, although they be baptised, & asketh what scripture I hauehave for this geere? But in deede he bow leth at the wrong marke, for in saying y^t the sacramentes tooke effect according to y^e faith of y^e receiuer and according to gods election, I ment, y^t God in baptisme giueth grace to infāts, which hauehave no actual faith of their owne, according to his eternal electiō in mercy. But whether al infants baptised & so dying be of y^e nūber of gods elect, as I do not know, so I wil not contend. But this I know, that if they were not elected of God before the foundations of the world were laide, the receiuing of baptisme, cannot make them Gods elect. Ephe. 1. Where Bristowe vrgeth the saying of saint Peter, 1. Pet. 3. baptisme saueth vsus now, it is a weake argument to proue the baptisme of infants, either to saue them all that receiue it, or to condemne all that receiueth it not. For explicating him p. 176selfe of what baptisme hee speaketh, he addeth, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, as you woulde say, outwarde washing, which is the externall sacrament, but the interrogation of a good conscience towardes God, which is the thing signified by outwarde washing, and yet not founde in infantes, but in them that hauehave knowledge, among whom, whosoeuer hath it not, hee shall no more bee saued then any was preserued from drowning that was not in the Arke of Noah. In which Arke one at leaste was saued from bodily drowning, which was not inwardly baptised with the spirite vntounto saluation. The figure of whom, I might vrge as probable as Bristow doth of the whole number saued, from drowning, like vntounto whom al they that are baptised are brought into the visible Church, although some with Cham, are not members of the mysticall bodie of Christ.

Real presence transubstantiation.

Touching the Eucharist I saide, Christ is present at Bristowe.his supper, but not after a grosse and Capernaicall maner Fulke.but as he was presēt in Manna to the fathers. 1. Cor. 10. Bristowes aunswere is, it was a spirituall meate, a spirituall drinke, for it signified Christ. But Saint Paule saith expresly it was Christ, and the Rocke was Christe. But, est, is, taken for significat, where it pleaseth the Papists, where it pleaseth them not, it is blasphemie, impudencie, falsification &c. Further he saith, they all did eate one, and the same meate, but not that they and we eate one, & the same meate. Although Saint Augustine is cleare, they did eate one, and the same that we eate, yet I will proue it by argument out of the Scripture, that which we eate and that which they did eate was, & is Christ, ergo they and we eat one and the same meate, euen as they were baptised with the same baptisme: for the church of God neuer had but one baptisme. As for the Capernaites, he saith, I vnderstande not the chapter, Iohn 6. and so onelyonly telleth his fantasie vppon it. But p. 177what mine vnderstanding is of that chapter, & also mine answere to al popish reasons, falsely gathered thereout: let it appeare in my confutation of Heskins & Sanders.

Concerning transubstantiation, I said, Of all follyes this is the greatest, that when the Papistes hauehave prated neuer so long of the sacrifice of breade and wine, at the laste they wil hauehave no breade nor wine in their sacrifice. First he saith, this wise argument, proueth the papistes & their fathers the old writers, to be fooles. To this I replye, those old writers, which are none of the papistes fathers, although they supposed Melchizedechs bread and wine, to bee a figure of our sacrament, yet they were not such fooles to denye breade and wine to remaine in our sacrament. But for answere, Bristow saith, that I my selfe confesse, y^t the drink of the water of the rock, was a figure of our drink in Christs Chalice, although that were water, & this is no water, no nor made of water, how much more, might Melchizedechs bread and wine be a figure of it, although there bee no breade nor wine in it, considering it was made of breade and wine, and retaineth the formes of breade and wine? &c. But where hath he this confession of mine? I neuer saide the water of the Rocke was a figure of Christes cuppe, but euen Christs cuppe it selfe, and the very bloud of Christ in a sacrament, to the faithfull, as the wine in the cuppe is to vsus. For Christ did euen then feede his true members with his flesh & bloud vntounto eternall life. Iohn. 6.

Marriage of Votaries: as Bishops, Priests, Deacons.

Because we say, the marriage of votaries is sinne and Bristowe.no marriage. Fulke saith, we are the forbidders of marriage, Fulke.that saint Paul speaketh off. 1. Tim. 4. But this saith Bristow, I hauehave shewed to pertaine to the Eucratites, & Maniches &c. and I hauehave shewed that it pertaineth more properly to the Papistes. But saint Augustine aunswereth them & Fulke at once, saith Bristowe, Cont. Faust. lib. 30. Cap. 6. Ille prohibet nubere, qui hoc malum esse dicit: Hee forbiddeth to marrie, y^t saith it is a naughtie thing, non qui huic bono aliud p. 178melius, anteponit, and not he, which to this good thing, preferreth an other better thing. Well, if he forbidde to marrie and to teache the doctrine of Deuills, which saith marriage is a naughty thing, then you Papists, which (as you confessed before) saie that the mariage of votarics is sinne, saie it is a naughty thing, and consequently forbidding to marry doe teache the doctrine of Deuills: neither can you shift a waie to saie, you doe not affirme, that which is marriage indeede, to be a sinne but that which is falsely called marriage: for you saie euen as the Manichees in this point, it is a naughty thing, for the Clergie, and them that be in holy orders to marry, and therefore you compell them to the vowe, and forbidde mariage to all that will enter into those orders, and also into moonkery, which you call religion, as though holynes and religion could not stande with marriage. And therefore to you, as well as to the Manichees Saint Augustine speaketh in the. 4. Chapter of that Booke, in defense of the catholique Church which in his time forbadde not marriage, nor compelled any to virginity. Hoc nobis primum responde… tis velim, &c. I would you should answere this thing first vntounto vsus, whither it be the doctrine of Deuills to make any virgins at all, or only to make them by prohibition of marrying? if by prohibition, it perteyneth nothing to vsus, for we our selues doe iudge it as foolishe a thinge to staie one that is willinge (to be a virgine) as it is a wicked & verie vngodly thing to compel one that is vnwilling. As for the preferring of virginity, in them that hauehave the gift, and for whom it is conuenient, for setting forth of the kingdome of God, before marriage, according to the doctrine of Saint Paule, wee agree with Saint Augustine and dissent from Iouinian, if his doctrine were as it is reported. But if Iouinian taught (as I saide) Ar. 45. that such as coulde not conteyne, though they had vowed virginity, should neuerthelesse be married, this was the doctrine of Saint Paul, it is better to marry then to burne. And although Ambrose & Augustine, account such marriage to be adultery, or p. 179worse then adultery, yet the holy Ghost saith: marriage is honorable in all men and the bedde vndefiled. Heb. 13. And for them that cannot conteine, although they hauehave vowed virginity, it is better to marry then to burne, 1. Cor. 7. except Bristowe thinke it better to quenche the fier of lust, with fornication and vncleanes: For all men cannot conteine, neither can all men make them selues chaste for the kingdome of God. Math 19, But this conference of Scripture pleaseth not Bristowe, for he counteth it none at all, comparing mee for want of conference of scripture to a cloude without water: well then, let vsus heare what sweete dewe commeth from Bristowes cloude.

First hee asketh what it is to burne. Hee aunswereth, to bee troubled with the pricking of the fleshe, say the heretikes. Not so, say wee: for Sainct Paul himselfe was troubled much, with such pricking, 2. Corin. 12. and yet hee was not bidden to marrie, when hee prayed so instantly against it, but it was saide vntounto him by Christ, My grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is perfected in infirmitie, &c. First he belyeth vsus, whome hee calleth heretikes, to say that to burne, is nothing else but to bee troubled with the pricking of the flesh: for wee holde, there is no praise of virginitie, where there is no naturall prouocation vntounto luste. But to burne wee say, is to bee so troubled, as men are, that are inflamed with lust, and hauehave no lawfull meanes to quench the same.

Secondly, beholde howe shamefully hee slaundereth Saint Paul, to be much troubled with such pricking of the flesh, where he complayneth of the generall rebellion of the fleshe, against the spirite, the messenger of Satan to buffet him, euen that lawe of his members, of which hee complayneth Rom. 7. which brought him captiue vnderunder the lawe of sinne. As for that pricking, which Bristowe speaketh of to bee so much in a bodie so exercised with afflictions and trauels, with hunger, and fastings, and in a man of such age, as Sainct p. 180Paul was at that time, when he wrote vntounto the Corinthians the second Epistle, it is altogether incredible. And confessing a generall rebellion of the fleshe, against the spirite vntounto all sinne, it is not probable that he should in this place, complaine of that one kinde onelyonly, from which age and weakenesse of bodie woulde priuiledge him, if godly exercise did not ridde him. What is it then to burne, saith Bristowe, or to be burned? saint Paul himselfe telleth vsus, it is, not to containe: If they doe not conteine, let them marrie, for it is better to marrie then to burne, for marriage is honorable and vndefiled, but fornicatours and adulterers God will iudge. The conference whereof is this: Let married folke vse their owne bedde, &c. and let the vnmarried folke enter into marriage, rather then not to containe, to burne, to commit fornication. So that to burne, not to containe, and to commit fornication, by Bristowes conference, is all one: So that hee which committeth not fornication, although hee bee continually inflamed with filthie luste, yet by Bristowes iudgement, hee burneth not, he is continent, hee is a virgine. Againe, if not to containe, and to burne be nothing else, but to commit fornication, it woulde followe in saint Paules wordes, that men are not commaunded to marrie, before they hauehave made triall of their incontinence by committing fornication, which seeing it is horrible absurditie: it followeth, that the Apostle to preuent fornication, exhorting men to marrie which containe not, seeing it is better to marrie then to burne, vnderstandeth incontinence and burning, for an inflāmation of lust, without fornication, or actuall filthinesse committed.

But whatsoeuer saint Paul speaketh of marriage of them that doe not containe, hee meaneth it of such as hauehave made no vowe to liue vnmarried. For of those that hauehave vowed, his sentence is (saith Bristowe) that they incurre damnation if they marrie, because they hauehave broken their first faith: 1. Tim. which faith with S. Augustine hee vnderstandeth for their last vowe of widowhood, notwithstāding, that I shewed, both by conference in the same chapter, by the title of, first, and by p. 181the name of faith, that it cannot properly bee so taken, but for the faith of Christianitie, euen as he saith: if any prouide not for his family, he hath denied the faith. Where I finde the word foreign in the scripture is neuer vsed for a vowe or promise made to God. Bristowe aunswereth, why? doe not you say your selfe, that both there & once afore in y^e same chapt. it is vsed for y^e vow or promise made in baptisme? no sir. I neuer said it. I said that the first faith may aptly be taken for the faith of baptisme, and Christianitie, except you wil say that the faith of Christianitie embraced by baptisme, is nothing else but a vowe or promise made to God. Againe, can you remember neuer a place (saith he) where the faith of god is the promise of God? looke Rom. 3. yea sir, I remember foreign taken for the trueth of Gods promise, but I finde not yet foreign taken for the vowe or promise made to God, which because you your selfe, so great and daily a conferrer of scriptures, coulde not finde, you cur…olled my saying, repeating my wordes for a vowe or promise, and leauing out that I added, made to God. The Latine phrase of the faith or promise of marriage vsed by Saint Augustine and other Latine writers, aunswereth not to my demaunde, of the vse of the greeke worde foreign foreign in the scriptures: which if the Apostle had taken for the promise of widowhood made in their admission, it is more like he woulde hauehave called it foreign, their former faith, and not foreign their first faith. Againe the conference whiche Bristowe vrgeth, of them that are alreadie turned back after Satan, most aptely agreeth to thē that had forsaken not onelyonly their widowhood, but also their Christianitie, Loe, saith Bristowe, your selfe are compelled to graunt, that which you denyed, to wit that they shall be damned because they forsake widowhoode? and how forsake they widowhoode but by marrying? ergo, Saint Paul saith they shall be damned for marrying: so inuincible is the texte, in our exposition. Fulke, it goeth harde with you. And all this, because I saide such wanton young huswiues, proceede so farre, that at length they forsake widowhood, Christianitie and al. Saide I onelyonly because they forsake widowhoode? p. 182No, but because they waxe wanton against Christ, because they hauehave forsaken the first faith, which is Christianity, and not only because they hauehave married, and giuen ouer theyr widowhoode: whereof whether there were a vowe or no, it is not proued. Although it be probable, there was a promise made vntounto the Church, because such poore widowes susteined of the Churches almes, were imployed to be helpers 1. Cor. 12. in the office of Deacons. Rom. 16. Considering that it was not sufficient for the sicke and impotent, that men should be collectors and distributers of the almes, but womē also were necessary, for diuers seruices about them which were not conuenient for men to exercise. But if I should graunt vntounto you, that the first faith here, signifieth the last vowe of widowhoode, yet it foloweth not of this place, that all that hauehave married after rashe vowes made to the contrary, are damned. For Saint Paule speaketh not of them that were constreined by the necessity of incontinencie (which it is not eueryevery mans gift to auoyde) to flye to the generall remedy appoynted by God, for auoyding of fornication, that eueryevery man should hauehave his wife, and eueryevery woman should hauehave her husband, without any exception: but only of them he speaketh, y^t waxed wanton against Christ, which being liuing to the worlde, were dead to God. What is this against them, which ignorantly rashly or constrainedly made a vowe to performe, that which they were not able? namely continence or chastity, without mariage, the breache whereof is not only by mariage, but much more by fornication and vncleanes, yea by continuall burning, without actuall filthinesse, which with Saint Paule is incontinence.

And yet the Papistes, as though there were no way to breake such vowe, but by marriage, which is the best meane of chastitie, for them that can not be chaste in single life, crie out damnatiō only against married votaries, affirming that infinite whoredoms and vncleanes, are lesse breach of vow, then marriage, and the marriage p. 183of votaries to be no marriage. Yet Saint Ambrose, who counteth it an adulterie against Christe, for a vowed virgine to marrie, counteth the marriage of such a one, in respect of her bodily husbande to be lawfull matrimony, and a much lesse fault, to enter into mariage, then once to committe fornication. Ad Virg. Laps. Cap. 5. And more plainly Saint Augustine which counteth the mariages of such, of whom the Apostle speaketh to be worse then adulteries, in respect of the breache of theyr vowe, made to Christ: yet counteth them to be mariages, and no adulteries, and detesteth the separation of such married persons, De bono Vid…. Cap. 8. 9. 10. 11.

Where Allen railing against our Bishops, and as he termeth our disordered newe ministery, saith, that ere euer they be well warmed in theyr benisices, they must for the most part, as it were Annexum ordini, hauehave a wife. I answered, Belyke Saint Paule taketh marriage to be so annexed to the order of an ecclesiasticall minister, y^t he neuer describeth the perfect paterne of a Bishop or Deacon, but one of the first pointes is, that he be the husband of one wife. Bristowe saith, I alledge the text to salue our Bishops itching lust: and more blasphemously speaketh Allen against our ministers marriage, whom yet they account to be but laie men. Where are they nowe that saye mariage is a naughty thing? But concerning the terme of Annexum ordini, although I saide in derision therof, Belyke, &c. as before, yet I ment not, that it was necessary for eueryevery perfect minister to be married, but that none is more perfect, then they that are married. Notwithstanding some men considering that the Apostle requireth hospitality, that is the charitable entertainment of poore straungers, as a speciall vertue in a Bishoppe or minister of the Church, thinke marriage to bee more conuenient then sole life, for that degree, because diuerse partes of hospitality, of whiche Saint Paule maketh, the washinge of the Saintes feete, one, and suche like, are not conuenient but for women to exercise, whome it were p. 184inconuenient, that a Bishop should kepe in his house, and not be a maried man. But Bristowe will teache me to vnderstand, what Saint Paule meaneth by the husband of one wife, by conference of that place. 1. Tim. 5. where he will hauehave a widowe to be chosen, such a one, quae fuit vnius viri vx…r, as hath bene the wife of one husband: so that he requireth in a Bishop, Priest, or Deacon, to be made, that he hauehave had only one wife. Indeede Bristowe: I learne by this conference, that Saint Paule who knewe how to write his minde in Greeke, although he had not spoken expresly of the behauiour of Bishops, and Deacons wiues. 1. Tim. 3. yet vsing the present temps, in speaking of Bishops, Elders, and Deacons, to be the husbande of one wife, & the preterperfect temps, in speaking of widowes, which hauehave had one husband did meane, that he requireth such a one to be made Bishop, Elder or Deacon, which presently hath a wife: and not which had a wife, that at the time of their election were deade, as the widowes husbande. It behoueth a Bishop foreign to be vnreprouable, the husband of one wife, sober, &c. except you will likewise say, a Bishop must be such a one, as hath bene sober, &c. although he be not so nowe. Againe, foreign let Deacons be the husbandes of one wife. And againe Tit. 1. …i foreign, if any man is vnreprehensible, the husbande of one wife. Therefore a Bishoppe, Elder, or Deacon, may be he, that hath a wife, presently, and not he that hath had one which is dead, onelyonly. Moreouer I learne by conference of that place, 1. Tim. 5. that Polygamie, which is many wiues at one time, is forbidden a Bishop, and not second mariage, as it hathben commonly and of olde time taken of many: seeing there is no reason to exclude a poore widow from almes and office in the Church, that hath liued continently with more husbands then one, so that she hauehave kept her to one at one time: But it is not meete, that she should be elected to an office in the Church, which hath bene an adulteresse, or vnlawfully diuorced from her husband, p. 185hath maried an other, although she may be releeued by almes, if she be penitent.

But Bristowe would hauehave men to marke it well, that yet neuer from the Apostles time, to this day, any one Bishoppe or Prieste, that is confessed to hauehave beene a good one, did marrie afterwardes, no not Iouinian him selfe. Hee would faine if he durst, say that no Bishoppe or Priest had a wife: but that were easily refelled out of Eusebius and all auncient histories. Clemens Alex. Strom. lib. 3. sheweth that the Apostles Peter and Philip, had wiues and did beget children. Also he saith of Saint Paule, Vnius quoque vxoris virum utique admittit, seu hoc Presbyter, seu Diaconus, seu Laicus viens matrimonio citra reprehensionem. He alloweth the husband of one wife, whether he be Elder, or Deacon, or lay man, vsing matrimony without reprehension. Seeing therefore he putteth no difference in respect of matrimony, betweene a Laye man, and a Cleargie man, it is plaine, that it was as lawfull for Elders and Deacons to marrie in his time, as for Lay men. Againe the same Clemens saith against them that denyed the lawfulnesse of generation, after he had cited diuerse textes of Scripture. Quid autem ad haec dicunt, qui in legem, &c. But what say they to these thinges, which inueygh against the lawe, and against matrimony, as that it was graunted onelyonly in the law, & not also in the new Testament? What can they say to these lawes that are made, which abhorre sowing and generation, when he maketh a Bishop also, him that ruleth his house wel, guide of the Church? And the marriage of one woman buildeth the house of our Lorde. Therefore he saith, that all thinges are cleane to the cleane. Seeing therefore that marriage is as free by his iudgement by the new Testament, as by the lawe, and Aarons Priestes, were at libertie to marrie, no man neede to doubt, but the Bishops and Elders of the Churche of Christe, are at as great libertie, and vsing their libertie in his time, were allowed for good ones.

p. 186Long after his time, the councell of Gangra in their Epistle to the Bishops of Armenia complaine of Eustachius and his sect, saying, Presbyteros verò, qui matrimonis contraxerunt, sperni debere dicunt. They saie that Elders or Priests which hauehave ioyned them selues in matrimony, ought to be despised. Therefore these catholique Bishops thought those Priests good ones, which did ioyne them selues in matrimony, & so they made their Canon: Si quis discernit Presbyterum coniugatum, &c. If any man make difference of a married Priest, as though by occasion of his marriage, he ought not to offer, and doth therfore absteine from his oblation, let him be accursed. Cap. 4. Of Deacons also the Ancyrane councell decreeth Cap. 10. Diaconi quicunque, &c. Whosoeuer be ordeyned Deacons, if at the same time when they were ordeined, they protested, saying that they would be ioyned in marriage, because they could not so continue, if afterwarde they hauehave married wiues, let them remaine in the ministerie, because the Bishop hath giuen them licence: But so many as hauehave helde their peace, and taken imposition of handes professing continencie, and afterwarde be ioyned in marriage, ought to ceasse from the ministerie.

Finally the Decree of Pope Stephanus is cited Dist, 31. Aliter se by Gratian and Iuo: lib 4. allowing the tradition of the orientall Churches for marriage of theyr Church ministers. Aliter se Orientalium, &c. The tradition of the Easterne Churches hath it otherwise, and otherwise is the tradition of this holy Church of Rome. For the Priests, Deacons, and Subdeacons of their Churches, are coupled in marriage: but none of the Priestes of this Church, from the Subdeacon vntounto the Bishoppe hath licence to enter into mariage. It were hard if there were neuer a good one among all the Cleargie of the East Churches, since the Apostles time, which hauehave ben married and yet are.

To conclude, I trust it is apparant to the indifferent reader, that such texts of Scripture as I alledged in those p. 187two bookes, which Bristow vndertaketh in this confuse manner to confute, were rightly applyed, and without all violence or wresting, doe proue sufficiently that for which they were called to witnesse. And as for the popish conference of Scriptures, wherof Bristowe once againe with great lothsomnesse doeth bragge, how sound it is, you may perceiue by this example, & taste, giuen by him in this Chapter. Wherefore I maruell much what learned ministers of our church these were, whom Bristow affirmeth (being in number more then a dozen, and diuerse of no vulgar wittes) by their onelyonly hearing of your conference of scriptures to hauehave become papists. By like some vagabonde, irregular, and vnhonest persons, being depriued of their ministerie for their vngodly behauiour, hauehave sought fauour among them by reuolting, or at least counterfaiting to be reuolted to papistrie, when they be of no religion, commended by Bristow for their wittes, but neither for their honestie nor learning.