A Confutation of a Popish and Slanderous Libel, Treatise · Answer 52 – Answer 68
The aunswere.
We affirme accordyng to the scripture, that the deade whiche die in the lorde are blessed, for they reste from their labours, and therefore to praie for theim that are happy, were superfluous. And as for those that die not in the lorde, thei are accursed, and therefore no praier is to bee made for theim: and al that die, doe either die in the lord, or not in the lord, for betwene cōtradictories ther is no meane. Apo. 14. Our sauiour christe testifieth of theim that beleue in God, that sent hym, that thei hauehave life euerlastyng, and come not into iudgement, but passe from death to life. Iohn. 5. And if any hadde neede to bee pourged for satisfaction (as you teache, that men must be in purgatorie) the holy theef, that was crucified with Christe, shoulde hauehave béen one especially, but our sauiour christ made him assurance of felicity immediatly, this daie (saieth he) thou shalte bee with me in Paradise. Luke. 23. And séeyng the Scripture neither commaundeth nor commendeth Praier for the deade, it is vntollerable presumptiō for any man, to vse it. And as for oblations, wee finde none in Gods woorde apoincted for the deade, that wee shoulde offer: no not in the oulde lawe, where there was so manie diuerse kindes of Sacrifice, no one was appoincted for the deade. Wherefore the example of Iudas rehearsed by the aucthour of the seconde booke of Machabées is neither to bee allowed, nor followed, because he hadde no warrant of Gods lawe to offer any suche Sacrifice.
The seuententh negation was altogether lefte out in the copie which came first to my handes, I suppose by negligence of the writer, but in another copie I finde it thus.
The Papiste.
Seuententh it doth denie Images, and the crosse of Christe.
The Aunswere.
Accordyng to the worde of God, and the consente of the primitiue churche, wée denie the vse of Images in the Churche, whiche are the doctrine of vanities and lies, as the Prophet witnesseth Abac. 2.
The Papiste,
Eightene it doeth denie the buriall of the deade bodies in the Churche yeardes.
The aunswere.
Wee are not so carefull for the buriall of our deade bodies, to dispute where they muste bee laied, so that dewe reuerence without superstition be vsed in their Sepulture, nether dooe wee refuse to burie theim in the Churche yerdes and places of comon buriall, although we thinke no holines to bee more in one place then in an other.
The Papiste.
Nintene it doeth denie the hallowyng of the Fonte, Oile, Palmes, and Asshes.
The aunswere.
Of hallowyng the water of baptisme, I hauehave spoken sufficiently before, as for oile Palmes, Asshes, and suche other beggerly Elementes of the worlde, that hauehave no woorde of GOD to comende them, wee hauehave no vse of theim in our religion: but in their Ciuile vse, all the creatures of god are hallowed to vsus by the woorde of God and praier. Gal. 4. Coll. 2.1. Tim. 4.
The Papiste.
Twentie it doth denie holy breade, holy water, Vestimentes, Chalices, Copes, Tunicles Candlestickes, lightes, Sensors, Orgaines in the church, singing in the quere, reliques of sainctes, pardones and pilgrimages, wherby it doeth appeare, that the religion of this newe reformed Church doth stande wholy of negatiues, by destroiyng, subuertyng, and deniyng of all thinges before vsed in the Catholike Churche of Christe.
The aunswere.
As this twentieth differeth from the ninetenth only in wordes, so one answere shall serue bothe. These weake and beggerly Elementes of the worlde, christian religion needeth not, hauyng Christe in whom dwelleth all fulnes and perfection, wisedome, iustificatien, sanctification. And generally, of all Ceremonies as is often saied before, wée admitte none as parte of Gods whorshippe, whiche are instituted of menne: onelyonly suche as bee accidentall, and mutable, if they be ordeined for edificatiō, order, and decencie, and be voide of superstition, we obserue theim. But so that no mannes conscience bee bounde to theim. And that when soeuer occasion serueth for better edification and more comely order, it is lawfull to abrogate them, and to institute newe in their places.
The Papiste.
Wherein the aucthors composers and deuisers of this newe religion hauehave dealed muche like as one maister Molande Vicar of sainct Peters in. Oxforde, did with Clare the Butcher, a neare neighbour and parishner of his, vntounto whom by the waie of a merie ieste, he made sale of an horse, all by negatiues on this wise, saiyng vntounto hym how that his horse had not a great heade, his horse hadde not a paire of Asse eares, his horse had not one touth in his heade longer then an other, his horse had not a sadle backe, no Splent, Spauen, or Ringbone, hys horse was not pincromped, sicle hought, nor broke winded, and so forth all by negatiues, he soulde his horse to Clare the Butcher, not expressyng what his horse hadde, but what his horse had not. Dealyng therin with muche like faieth and truthe, as our Preachers dooe with the people of this Realme, which goe aboute to plante a new religion amongest theim, which standeth as I hauehave here expressed wholy by negatiues, in affirmyng nothyng, and deniynge all thinges.
The aunswere.
You conclude your matter, as it is verie mete, with a merie tale, I had almoste saied of Robin Hoode, and little Ihon, but I should saie of maister Molande, and Clare the Butcher of Oxforde. Whereby a manne may perceiue, you were pleasauntely disposed, that in so shorte a treatise, wold néedes thruste in so long a tale, and the same to dilate with all the circumstaunces, whereas you had no leasure to note the places of your Doctours, that ye alledge in good earneste. But now sir, (sauyng your tale) and to applie it to the purpose. If maister Molande, as he rehersed some faultes, of whiche perhappes his horse was free, so he had recited all the faultes, that maie be in any horse, and denied theim all to bee in his horse, might not Clare the Butcher, hauehave boughte a good horse, of him by negatiues? But maister Molande like a subtile Sophister, repeateth a many of his defaultes, and suppresseth as many, or more, and so he begileth poore Clare the Butcher. And this Sophistrie of maister Molande, is youre Logike throughout all your treatise, of a fewe particulars, to inferre an vniuersal. And this your Iade belike, you thoughte to sell vntounto some, as simple as Clare the Butcher, that could no more discerne of your diuinitie, then Clare the Butcher, could sée of maister Molandes Sophistrie. Or els if you mente good faithe, as you do pretende, I must nedes saie, to quitte your tale, that if Clare wer not a better Butcher, then you shewe your self to be a Logicien, or diuine, you might bothe procede in one facultie, and maister Molande bee your presenter. For as he solde his horse by negatiues, so you hauehave proued, that all our Religion standeth wholie vppon negatiues, that we denie all thinges, and affirme nothyng.
The Papiste.
Dewe obiections made againste the premisses. For wheras ye hauehave saiede the religion of this newe reformed Churche, to stande wholy by negatiues, in affirmynge no one thyng more then was before vsed, in the Catholike churche of Christe, howe vntrue this is who seeth not when the religion of this newe reformed Church, doth affirme, and hath brought in many thinges as good, godly, and lawfull, whiche before were straightly denied.
The aunswere.
It must néedes be a clerkely disputatiō, wher you maie be both opponent, & respō dent your self, wher you maie make argumētes for vsus, and make answere for your self. But as he that aunswereth, if he gett the victorie, ouerthroweth him that opposeth: so you taking vponupon you to oppose, and aunswere your self, you can ouerthrowe none, other but your owne self. But neuer a one of these fiue obiections, is holden of vsus, in maner and forme, as it is propounded of you. And therfore I would desire you henceforwarde, to defende youre owne matters, aswell as you can, for you shall gette neither money, nor thankes, to plaie the Proctor for vsus.
The Papiste.
Firste it dooeth affirme, that it is lawfull, and bothe good and godly that Priestes shoulde take wiues, and beyng firste made Priestes, it is lawfull to marie.
The aunswere.
We affirme that it is vnlawfull, that any manne should bee bounde to sole life, whiche hath not the gifte of continence. And that marriage is as honourable in ecclesiasticall ministers, as in al other men, whether thei were married before thei were called to that office, or to whether thei marrie afterwarde. Hebre. xiij. j. Timoth. iij. and Tite. j.
The Papiste.
Seconde it dooeth affirme, that Freers Monkes, and Nonnes after their vowes made solemnely vntounto God of their chaste and cōtinent life, that it is lawful for theim to mary together, and holde the same to be good and lawfull wedlocke.
The aunswere.
Wee affirme, that who soeuer hath made a rashe, and vnaduised vowe of continence, whiche he is not able to keepe, ought to repente him of his rashenes, and rather to marrie, then to burne. j. Cor. 7.
The Papiste.
Thirde it doeth affirme, that a man beyng deuorced from his wise for fornicatiō, may therupon marie againe, and take another, and so it is lawfull for hym to hauehave twoo wiues a liue, the one in the bedde, the other diuorced.
The aunswere.
Wee affirme that thei, whiche are lawfully deuorced for adulterie, are no more housebande, and wife. For the knot of marriage by lawfull deuorsemente, is cleane dissolued, and therefore a manne so deuorsed, maie marrie, and not hauehave twoo wiues at ones, accordyng to the doctrine, and right vnderstandyng of our Sauiour Christes wordes. Math. v. and xix.
The Papiste.
Fowerth it doeth affirme Breade ad wine, to bee the whole substaunce of the Eucharistie, after the consecration.
The aunswere.
Wee affirme accordyng to the scriptures, and faithe of the Churche, for a thousande yeres after Christe, that breade and wine remaine in the Sacrament, and are necessarie there to remaine, that it maie bée a Sacramente, for the woorde muste come to the Elemente, and so make it a Sacrament. But we doe not affirme, that breade, and wine is the whole substaunce of the Sacrament, but the bodie and blood of Christe, receiued by faithe, is the principall parte thereof, as in Baptisme the outward Element is water, but the principall part thereof, is the pourgyng of our sinnes, by the secrete, and wōderfull workyng of the holie ghoste.
the Papiste.
Fifte it doth affirme that onelyonly faieth iustifieth, and that faieth alone is sufficient to procure and purchase for vsus, gods grace and merciemercy, for the time of this present life, and at the ende and terme therof, life euerlastyng. Beside many other like diuerse thinges that the religion of this newe reformed churche doth affirme as thinges lawfull, and hauehave brought theim into this realme, as thinges good and godly.
The aunswere.
Wee affirme, that the free merciemercy of God in Christ, is the efficient cause of our iustification, whiche merciemercy we apprehēde by none other hande, or instrumente, but by faithe. But that either faithe dooeth procure, or purchase Gods grace, or merciemercy, by any whorthinesse of it, wee vtterly denie, as also that onelyonly faithe is sufficiēte for a christian man: when we teache that this faith, by which we are iustified, is not a solitarie faith, but of necessitie accompanied with many vertues, & good workes, although by receiuyng Goddes merciemercy, no workes, but onelyonly faithe doeth iustifie vsus.
The Papiste.
An answere against the obiections.
For aunswere beside, that there is no one of their affirmatiōs, now by theim brought that maketh any thing ad cultum diuinum, to the seruice and honouryng of god, wherin true religion doth consiste, as it is before proued by the diffinition therof, geuen by Augustine al their affirmations doe include some negatiōs of a farre more better thing, then is brought in by their affirmations.
The aunswere.
But euen nowe, in the latter ende of the firste obiection, you confesse, that wee affirme many other thynges, beside these fiue, whiche you hauehave rehersed. And now as though, we had no other affirmations, you conclude, (as your maner is) that no one of our affirmatiōs, maketh any thyng ad cultum diuinum to gods seruice, and that all our affirmations doe include a negation, of a farre better thing, then is brought in by them. So that when wee affirme all the articles of the Crede, none of theim perteineth to Goddes seruice, but rather include a negation of a farre better thing. When we affirme, that Christe onelyonly is the heade of his vniuersall Churche, wee doe it not to the honour of Christ, but wée include ye negation of a farre better thing, that is the supremacie of the Pope. Whiche by your assertion, is a farre more better thyng, then the supremacie of Christ. So when we affirme, that onelyonly the scripture must bee the rule of true Religion, it maketh nothyng for Religion, to worshippe God as he hath commaunded, but it includeth a negation of vnwritten verities, whiche are farre more better thinges, then the scripture. When we affirme that we must put our trust in God alone, we doe no honour to God therby: but we denie yt men muste put their trust in creatures, which by your rule, is a farre more better thyng, then to putte our truste in God alone. When wee affirme, that wée must praie to God alone, it perteineth nothyng, to Gods seruice, but includeth the negation, of praiyng vntounto sainctes, whiche is a farre more better thyng, then to pray vntounto God. And when we affirme, that the onelyonly Sacrifice of Christes passion, is sufficiente for our saluation, we yelde no honour to God thereby, but denie the Sacrifice of the Masse, whiche is a farre better thyng, then the Sacrifice of Christes passiō. And thus if I had leasure, and pleasure, as you hauehave, to number examples by tennes, and by twenties, I might reherse a whole hundreth of the like sorte.
The Papiste.
As for example their affirmation that it is lawfull for Priestes to take wiues, is a denial of chaste and continent life of priestes, whiche as the Apostle sainct Paule saieth is muche farre better.
The aunswere.
Wee so affirme marriage of Ecclesiasticall ministers, as an honourable, and a chaste life, neither doe wée denie continēs to those that hauehave the gifte thereof. And whereas you vouche sainct Paule to warantie. I aunswere, that saincte Paule in no place, dooeth require virginitie of Ecclesiasticall persones, and wheresoeuer he commendeth it, he praiseth it, no more in priestes, then in laie menne. I would all menne were, saieth he, as I am, but eueryevery one hath his proper gifte of God, some of one sorte, and some of an other. j. Cor. vij.
The Papiste.
Their affirmation that Freers, Monkes, and Nonnes, maie mary together, is a flatte deniyng of the vowe of chastetie, which by sainct Paules iudgemente is farre better.
The aunswere.
Wée denie not the obseruation of any promises, or vowes, whiche are lawfull for menne to make, and possible for them to performe. Neither doeth saincte Paule at any time commende any suche vowes, or allowe them to bée kepte, but geueth a generall rule, that to auoide fornication, lett eueryevery manne hauehave his wife, and eueryevery woman her housebande. j. Cor. vij. And if a virgine marrie, she sinneth not: so that if you would vnderstande virgines in that place, for vowed Nonnes, you should manifestely contrary your self, that coumpte it so heinous a matter, for a Nonne to marrie. And as for the widowes, whiche (as I said before) made no vowes to God, but promises to the churche, if you would needes vnderstande theim for Nonnes, Sainct Paule saieth, it is better for them that are vnderunder three score yere old to marie, and beare children, then to vowe chastitie. j. Timo. v.
The Papiste,
Their affirmatiō that the diuorced man maie againe marie, is a plaine deniall of reconciliacion, whiche ought to bee made againe, betwixt man and wife, the Apostle saincte Paule geuyng counsell thereof, that the womā beyng departed from her housebande, shoulde remaine vnmaried to bee reconciled againe vntounto her housebande.
The aunswere.
Concernyng diuorses, if that whiche wee wishe, might take place, all controuersies should bee cutte of. For we wishe that adulterers, accordyng to the lawe of God, should be punished with death. But if the Ciuile Lawe dooeth faile in that poincte, the nexte remeadie for the innocente partie, is diuorcemente, and after deuorcement, marriage, if he can not liue vnmarried. For our sauiour Christ excepteth the case of fornication, as well for marriage after deuorcemente, as for the diuorcemente it self. Math. xix. And for amendemente of the partie offendant, the Ecclesiasticall sworde of Excommunication, muste bee drawne out: whiche muste continue so longe vponupon the offendour, vntill his vnfeigned, and hartie repentance, doe sufficiently appeare to the Congregation. Whiche in that case, maie not refuse to receiue him againe. The partie then so receiued, bothe of god, and the church, and not beyng able to leade to a continente life, is at libertie, to marrie also in the Lorde. For the firste marriage by the diuorcemente, is as clearely dissolued, as if it had neuer been. And as concernyng the reconciliation sainct Paule speaketh of, he meaneth not betwene them, that are lawfully diuorced. But betwene those that separate them selues, without a sufficiente cause, whiche is onelyonly fornication. Like as our sauiour Christ, when he saith, that who so marrieth her, that is putte awaie, committeth adulterie, vnderstandeth of her that is vnlawfully putte awaie, for any other cause, beside fornication, in all whiche causes (the case of adulterie onelyonly excepted) she continueth still wife to hym that did putte her awaie so that he whiche marrieth her, marrieth an other mannes wife, and so committeth adulterie. But she that is diuorsed for adulterie, is no mannes wife, and therefore he that marrieth her, committeth none adulterie.
The Papiste.
Their affirmation that breade and wine is the whole substance of the holy Eucharistia, is a plaine deniall of Christes very bodie in the same, whiche is muche farre better, and a thinge of a farre more greater price then breade and wine is. So that by their affirmations thei doe nothing better, but soner appaire and diminishe the preciousnes of euerie thing they medle with all.
The aunswere.
Wée do not so affirme bread, and wine in the Sacrament, that we denie the presence of the bodie, and bloud of Christe, to the faithe of the worthie receiuer. But that grosse, and carnall presence, whiche you dooe faigne to bee receiued, as well of wicked menne, as of Godlie: whiche immagination beyng of fleshe without the spirite, our Sauiour Christe affirmeth, to be altogether vnprofitable. For if you did not separate it from the spirite, it muste nedes giuegive life to those that receiue it. As Christe hymself affirmeth, whosoeuer eateth his fleshe, and drinketh his blood, hath life euerlastyng. Ihon. vj. Againe you feigned presence, is vnpossible to the nature of his humaine bodie, whiche he hath in al poinctes like to ours, sinne excepted. Heb. ij. and. iiij.