Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted, Chapter 7
CHAPTER VII.
HOLYNESSE.
THIS you say, in verie deede,ltiwne who …nge …. … a … de …
When you rehearse the Nicene Creede;
One Church Catholicke,
Holie, and Apostolicke.
This is another Marke, truelie;
The Church must bee holie:
Holie Men, holie Service,
Ceremonies, and Sacrifice,
Sacramentes, and holie Dayes,
Are observed in her al-wayes.
As for the Sayncts, and Martyres all;
And Virgines, which you Saynctes doe call:
Whose Names are in your Kalendar,
When lived they, and where?
In what Religion was it they died?
By whom were they Canonized?
If it were not the Church of Rome,
Then shall I bee converted soone.
If they were not your Companie,
Then is your Fayth, an Haeresie.
Philadelphus.
I am, against both your Wish, and Expectation, (Eriphilus) so farre cheared with your man's Poësie; as, if it may not trouble your cheare, I would aske, even chearfullie, of you; why hee hath passed by the Apostolicke Creede, (which, with some more credite, hee might hauehave cited; and, where-in, hee might hauehave found, al-so, the propertie of HOLYNESSE) to alleadge the Nicene? for, if hee thought, that this word [Apostolicke] would hauehave marred his Metre, by making his Lyne a foot longer: yet, the shortnesse of his immediatelie, subsequent verses, might hauehave recompensed that slippe: neyther hath hee beene, in the rest of this Ryme, so squimmish, as to stand too praeciselie, on footes; or, halfe footes.
Eubulus.
Wee will let this passe, (Philadelphus:) for as II… protested before, I am not to insist, in taxing all his absurdities, no, not in the Matter, much lesse in his Metre, which is lesse materiall, I come to speake of this Marke of Holinesse: and, before I enter to examine the Man's Logicke, I will yeelde this much, That, this once, hee hath fallen on a true Propertie of the Church of CHRIST: yea, and I will grant thus much more, That al-be-it all properties be not Marks, (because more is requyred for being a proper Marke, than onlie to bee a proper Attribute) yet, that Holinesse is even a proper Marke of CHRIST His Church; but, where-in the Church of Rome, hath as litle, and lesse advantage, than in anie of the former. And, for clearing of this, (Philomathes) I must, first, put out your Man, from the Lurking-denne of Aequivocation, where-in your Doctours delight to lye; and, thence, to shoote at the Innocent, in secret. For, if, by Holinesse, bee meaned, that sanctified Disposition of the Soule, and Affections, by the Spirit of Regeneration, wrought in all true Christians; in that Sense, it can bee no Marke, because GOD, onlie, knoweth the Hearts of Men. And, wee concluded, before, with consent of Bellarmine, That all Markes must, of necessitie, fall vnderunder Sense. And, agayne, if by Holynesse, bee meaned, that which is seene, and exposed to perception, in Mens outward carriage, according to the Law of Righteousnesse, in Manners, and common conversation; neyther, thus, can it be a proper Marke of CHRIST HIS true Church. For, that, by the restrayning Vertue of GOD HIS Spirite of Administration, even Heathen men, and Infideles, will appeare, in all morall Vertues, matcheable to Christians; except, that wee know, that what-so-ever is not of Fayth, is sinne. Was not Paul vnrebukeable, as concerning the Law; while, yet, hee was not onlie no Believer, but even a cruell Persecuter al-so?
Philomathes.
How-so-ever outward Righteousnesse may not bee a sure Marke of Men, considered absolutelie; for that fayre carriage, which by the restrayning Vertue of the Spirit of Administration, will bee even in Heathen men: yet, (as you did, in short wordes, make answere to your selfe) that what is not of Fayth, is sinne; and, that, there-fore, no Heathen conversation, how approoved so-ever, can be counted for true Holynesse: So, amongst Professours of Christianitie, I thinke, that Holynesse in lyfe and manners, must bee a most sure discerning Mark, wherby to know the true Church, as which must, in them, bee praesumed, to proceede of Fayth. And wee are a-searching of such Notes, as in the communitie of Christians, all acclayming the Title of the Church, may discerne the Vpright, from the Bastard, in that same kynde. So, as your Objection, of Heathen carriage, in this case, is clearlie the same Sophisme, which, you may remember, that, before, you taxed in our Men.
Eubulus.
Doe you not knowe, (Philomathes) that,II. even amongst Professoures, not only will Hypocrites, in all these Outwardes, appeare to goe farre beyonde, even the moste sincere, and single-hearted Christians; but, even superstitious, and corrupt vvorshippers, yet in a blynde zeale, vvill seeme to keepe more preciselie, the vvaye of HOLINESSE, and RIGHTEOVSNESSE, than who hauehave more, and truer Light?
And if no more were to leade you, to knowe, that HOLINESSE, in this kynde, can bee no Marke, this, alone, might tell it you; That your owne Men, all-wayes, in their Disputes with vsus, about the true Church, Doctrine, and Worship, doe reject, (and that justlie) all Argumentes brought by vsus, agaynst anie persons, or personall actions of Men. How-so-ever, agayne, in charging vsus, they doe forget them-selues, so farre, as, all-wayes, to fall to personall, and, those, impudentlie false, and vnjust Criminations. So, as you may see, that, of necessitie, this Marke of HOLINESSE, must bee vnderstoode of an holie, and lawfull Worship, and holie, and pure Doctrine. And, albe-it I confesse, that this can never bee anie-where, but, that, there-with, al-so, shall bee some number of Names, both inwardlie sanctified, by the Worde, and Spirite, and, al-so, showing foorth their Fayth, by their workes: yet, it is the HOLINESSE of Doctrine, and lawfull, and pure Worship, which is the proper Marke of the true Church: and, not eyther the inward Sanctification of the Soule, which we see not: or, the onlie outward Manners, where-in wee may bee deceived.
page missing of your Man's Argument, I will nowe set it before you, that you may see the Force there-of:
That Companie, which, onlie, hath in it holie Men, holie Service, Ceremonies, Sacrifice, Sacraments, Dayes, &c. must bee the Church of GOD. But, in the Church of Rome, onelie, these are to bee found. There-fore, the Church of Rome, is the onelie Church of GOD.
Now, to grant his Proposition, or Major, in such Sense, as where-in I hauehave, all-readie, cleared, and you, all-so, (Philomathes) hauehave confessed, That, onlie, it can consist. I denye his Assumption, or Minor, as which is shameleslie false: except, by the onelie, sure, and layde-downe Rule, hee prooue it.
Philadelphus.
You must attende (Eubulus) the Probation of his Assumption, in the next Proper Ballad, that happeneth to breake out of the Super-aboundance of his Poēticall Veyne: and, suspende his Conclusion, till then. And, that, in the tyme, hee may, the more seriouslie, set himselfe for it; what, if from his owne Groundes, where-of hee glorieth, one should drawe this contrarie Conclusion?
That Companie, which hath turned all the Worship of GOD, (Who will bee worshipped, in Spirit, and Trueth) in a prophane Histrionicke Farce: which teacheth, for Doctrines, the Traditions of Men': which burdeneth the Consciences of Christians, (whom their Lord will hauehave to be free, saith Augustine) with innumerable ydle, & superstitious Ceremonies, of Mans inventiō; in the multitude whereof, all true Religion, is not onlie buried, but, al-so, lost: Which, after that perfect Sacrifice, which CHRIST offered, once for all, offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices, for Sinne: Which devyseth Sacramentes of their owne, which they hauehave not received from the LORD: Which, superstitiouslie, keepe Dayes, and Tymes: Which set vp Saynctes departed, and erect Images, to bee worshipped, with Religious Adoration: Who, glorying of Fathers, and Martyres, are, them-selues, Persecuters, and Murderers of the Sayncts: That Companie can not bee the Church of CHRIST; but is, vndoubtedlie, The Antichristian Synagogue. But, such is the Church of Rome. There-fore, the Church of Rome, is not the true Church of CHRIST, but is, The Antichristian Synagogue.
Now, as your Man's stout Asseveration, of holie Service, Ceremonies, Sacrifice, Sacraments, Dayes, &c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion; except you try, & verifie them to be such, by that onlie Touch-stone, which, in anie case, you desyre never to bee touched: so will his vayne Acclaiming of all the Sayncts, Martyres, and Virgines, contayned in our Kalendar, and the pretended canonizing of them, much lesse helpe him. What they hauehave beene, who are contayned in our Kalendar, wee are not much curious to inquyre; because wee holde it not for a Register of Sayncts, but for a civill Rule, where-by to calculate Tymes. And I praesume, that Ianus, Iulius, and Augustus, are none of the number written in Heaven, as, perhaps, no more are some others, vvho are written in the Kalendar; vvhose Names, yet, in civill vse, may serue fitlie for Notes of Tymes. And I thinke, verilie, your Poet hath lost, both the Yeare of GOD, and Dominicall Letter, al-so, when hee is prooving Religion, from the Kalendar: which, wee esteemed, ever should bee cleared from Scripture. And, hee hath dipped his Mynde so deepelie in this Studie, as hee asketh, when, and where, they lived. But, foolish Man, it is neyther the ryme, when, nor the place where, anie Man, eyther liveth, or dieth, that maketh him a Christian. But, that third thing in his Question, which, onlie, for all; except to multiplie Babling, hee should hauehave asked, namelie, in what Fayth they lived, and died? And, then, wee answere, That, if they were Saynctes, indeede, they both lived, and died, in the same Fayth which wee holde; and were even of our Companie: which Companie, is not defined by Tyme, when, or place where, but by the vnion of what-so-ever persones, in what-so-ever place, and of what-so-ever tyme, in one LORD, one Fayth, one Spirit, on Baptisme, &c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Trueth: and, Thy Word is Trueth, sayeth our Saviour. And, giving this, that all these Sayncts had beene, not onlie in the Companie of the Church of Rome, then, but, also, that they had beene of her Companie, (for manie, even now, are in her Companie, which are not of it: Come out of her, my People, sayeth the Spirit) and holding one, and the same Fayth, which Rome, at that tyme, helde: yet, as Eubulus hath now more than once tolde you, What will anie Prayse, or Praerogatiue of Rome, then, make for Rome, now, which is not now of the Companie of Rome, then; but is the Synagogue of Satan; where-as, Rome, of olde, was of our Companie?
Eriphilus.
What? (Philadelphus) will you make those, whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized, to bee of your Companie? they were Canonized, I tell you, may Ages before Luther was borne.
Philadelphus.
Of their Canonizing, (Eriphilus) I will not, now, much dispute, whether it was farther, eyther to their honour, who were so Canonized; or to theirs, who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour, in making Sayncts: or to the reproach, and disgrace, of both. I am certaine, that whom GOD hath sanctified, hee is, and will bee, a Saynct, though the Pope, and all the Conclaue, had concluded the contrarie: and, whom GOD hath not sanctified, no power in the Worlde, can make holie. I say, that in this your glorying, of Canonizing Saynctes, you hauehave as valide an Argument, for the Church of Rome, as the building of the Prophets Tombes, and garnishing of their Sepulchres, was for the Iewes,…th, 23. 29. whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets, and them-selues, crucifiers of the LORD of Glorie. And our Fayth, (Eriphilus) was not borne, with Luther, no more, than your Heresie, was borne with you: but, our Fayth, is the same Fayth, where-by all Faythfull, in all Ages, and Places, ever lived: as yours is that same deceitfull Illusion, which, even in the Apostolicke tymes, Satan was a-hatching: and, which, having by slow degrees, mounted to so monstrous an height, is now, agayne, neare the dead-trach, to the Devil's great displeasure.
Philomathes.
If EUBULUS, and I, shall giuegive over to you, PHILADELPHUS, and, to ERIPHILUS, the reasoning of this Matter, I feare, wee must provyde vsus, some-where, of long Weapons, to goe betwixt you, so Satyricke are you, and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS.
Philadelphus.
Verilie, (Philomathes) I mynde not to free Eubulus of that Taske, where-of hee can much better acquyte him-selfe, than I am able: and, if Eriphilus take my Counsell, hee shall beholde you all-so, to pleade your part. And, it is not so much anie Satyricke Speaches of myne, (as it pleaseth you to call them) which hauehave marred Eriphilus Mirth, as Eubulus sad Syllogismes; vvhereby, hee hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes, as, how-so-ever, at first, rejecting my Sonnets, hee summoned vsus to Syllogismes; yet, I perceiue him, now, so surfeyted with them, that, in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion, I will yet, vouchsafe him one Sonnet, to swadge it; where-in, hee shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable.
Catholicke can not bee to Sense subdued:
Continuance is but a common Case.
Things Visible, are often-times vnviewed.
What's Unitie; if it bee not in Grace?
Hypocrisie, some-tyme, …surpes the place
Of Holynesse, if true Light bee not Leader.
Who Flesh, for Spirit, who Shades, for Sooth, embrace:
The more devote, more doting they'r, and deader.
Would'st thou stand stay'd, 'gaynst all, both Doubts & Dangers,
Follow CHRIST'S Voyce, and flee the voyce of Strangers.
Philomathes.
I knowe not, howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mynde: but, verilie, you hauehave made your worde good, in this, That in all your Sonnet, there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable: all-be-it it bee so full of Sentence, as you hauehave compryzed, in a short Summe, the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse, agaynst our Man's Markes. But, nowe, both the Day, and the Way, are shortening: and, wee hauehave, yet, one Poynt, to passe thorowe: namelie, of HAERETICKES. You hauehave beene so difficill, (Eubulus) to graunt vsus the Title of the true Church, and hauehave so farre set at naught all our Notes: as, I would gladlie heare, how you will cleare your owne Churches, from this imputation of HAERESIE, which our Man, heere, at great length, layeth agaynst you.
Eubulus.
If hee could hauehave prooved his power in anieV. thing, hee would, chiefelie, hauehave imployed it, for the credite of his owne Church, and Cause. Where-in, if hee had prevayled, hee should, with one, and the same travell, hauehave over-throwne vsus, all-so. As, accordinglie, you see, howe, in all his alleadged Markes, hee laboureth, to appropriate them so to Rome, (and, there-vponupon, to conclude of her, That shee is the true Church) that, there-with, all-so, by a Consequence, in his Conceit, cleare anough, our Churches, as defectiue, vvere condemned by him. And, in-deede, if hee could possiblie hauehave well instructed the one, vvee had the lesse place to pleade agaynst the other. For Romes Iustification, should, sufficientlie, convince vsus; lyke as the justifying of our Churches, showeth her to bee Satan's Synagogue. But, if I hauehave made him to bee seene a weake Souldiour, for him-selfe, it may well bee praesumed, that hee will prooue no great Masteries agaynst vsus; how-so-ever hee assayleth vsus, with an Armie of Interrogatours; if so bee, that by the hudgenesse of the number, in common, the particular imbecillitie, of each severallie, might bee supplyed. And, to manifest this vntounto you, (Philomathes) in all his Ryme, (inscrybed HAERETICKS) hee racketh his Ingyne, to prooue our Churches, to bee haereticall, even by this mayne Argument:
To whome the Notes of Haeretickes, doe, properlie, conveane: and, in whome manyfolde Defectes are found, which can not befall the true Church: they must, of necessitie, bee haereticall.
But, to the Protestant Churches, the Notes of Haereticks doe, properlie, conveane: and, manyfold Defects, which can not befall the true Church.
There-fore, the Protestant Churches, are haereticall.
The Major of this Syllogisme, is so clearlie true, as it can not bee gayne-sayde. Howe hee prooveth his Minor, wee will trye, GOD vvilling, when you hauehave read vntounto vsus his Verses there-on. And, first, concerning the first poynt of haereticall properties, to which I will, first, make aunswere: and, there-after, with no great a-doe, wee will over-turne all his Interrogatours, of those Defectes, which hee would father vponupon our Churches.
Philomathes.
Then, take heede, howe hee descrybeth you.