Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted, Chapter 8

Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted · Chapter 8

p. 110CHAPTER VIII.

HAERETICKES.

OVR Saviour warnes vsus, to hauehave care,

Of false Prophets to beware,

That in His Name should come:

Not sent, yet they would runne:

Thieues, not entring by the Doore,

That kill, and steale, and keepe a-store:

Wolues, in Sheepes cloathing,

To kill Soules, and steale the Teaching:

Thistles, Thornes, corrupted Ground,

On whom no good Fruit is found:

Living after their Lusts, truelie;

Whose god is their owne Bellie:

Dogges, Foxes, and Masters of Lies,

That new Sects will devyse;

Bringing in Dissention,

And heape to them-selues Perdition.

These Markes agree with you,

More than the Pagane, Turke, or Ievv:

For they denye the Name of CHRIST,

And counterfeyt no Christian Priest.

Eubulus.

Stay there, Philomathes: for in these Verses, is… the probation of that first poynt of his Assumption, whereby the Notes of Haeretickes are affirmed of vsus: and, now, I pray you, advert a deadlie Demonstration, where-by you sayde, jestinglie, that hee descrybeth vsus:

Those Marks, given vsus, to discerne Haeretickes, conveane but to such as professe the Name, and Worship, of CHRIST.

p. 111But, you Protestants, professe the Name, and Worship▪ of CHRIST.

Therefore, these Markes conveane to you: and, consequentlie, you are Haeretickes.

Now, how Cholericke so-ever you take Eriphilus to bee in this Cause; yet, I will even admit him Iudge, of this sad Syllogisme, where-by your Poet will prooue vsus Haeretickes. Would you allow mee, (Eriphilus) to conclude your Ballader, a barking Dog, thus? Barking can conveane, but to living, and sensitiue Creatures: but, your Ballader, is a living, and sensitiue Creature: therefore, barking conveaneth to him; and, consequentlie, hee is a Dog.

Eriphilus.

Hee is verie skillesse in Logicke, who knoweth not, that of miere Affirmatiues, in the second figure, no thing can conclude. And, you but skornfullie afforge to our Man, so senselesse a manner of Argumentation.

Eubulus.

I am content (Eriphilus) it be esteemed so of me;I if, bending there-to all your Skill in Logicke, you shall bee able, out of your Man's Verses, to frame anie other forme of Conclusion, than that, which you say, I hauehave afforged vntounto him. This is the summe of his last read Verses; Such, and such, are the Notes of Haeretickes: which Notes, conveane, onlie, to Men professing CHRIST; for, to Iewes, Turkes, and Paganes, who denye His Name, they can not bee competent. But, you, Protestantes, professe the Name of CHRIST: and, there-fore, &c.

Philomathes.

Verilie, (Eriphilus) I feare, that both our Skills, in Logicke, shall, hardlie, finde out a better forme of our Man's wordes: where-in Eubulus hath so opened a chyldish over-sight, as I can not find, wel, a Vayle to cover it.

Eriphilus.

At worst, it is but a fault in forme; which, in a well-consisting matter, may bee soone mended.II

Eubulus.

But, I pray you, (good Eriphilus) though you had a Syllogisme, at your owne shaping, will you ever finde matter, where-of to make it, or, vsus Haeretickes, by it; in this, that we professe CHRISTIANITIE? or, putting it even to the Racke, will it afforde anie reason, p. 112where-fore to bynde on vsus, the Notes of Haeretickes, more than on the Church of Rome, which professeth the Name, & Worship, of CHRIST, all-so? Except you will bee allowed, to reply, as one of your Profession, one day, disputing with mee, of Antichrist, (when I propounded an Argument, where-by I concluded, that of the Pope; in place of resuming the partes of my Reason) aunswered mee confusedlie, and confidentlie, That, finde him out, as wee could, otherwayes, the Pope could not, possiblie, bee once suspected to bee Antichrist, for hee is CHRIST HIS Vicar. Shall wee bee counted Haeretickes, (Eriphilus) onelie, because it pleaseth your Poet, so to call vsus? To whome these Notes doe most fitlie agree, let the rightlie-illuminated, judge: and, Hee will judge one day, who judgeth righteouslie, and, whose is all judgement. VVee passe verie little, to bee judged by your Man: yea, wee judge not our selues.

Philadelphus.

You are too sharpe sighted, (Eubulus:) hee hath thought, that vnderunder the sweetnesse of Poesie, such a slippe in Logicke, might hauehave easilie beene concealed.

Eubulus.

That might hauehave beene praesumed of Syrens, singingIV. vntounto Swyne. But, to leaue the Man, with his owne Logicke; I would demaund of you, (Philomathes) why, in so long an Enumeration of haereticall Notes, hee hath passed over those, where-by the holie Ghost witnesseth, that Haeretickes, and of this tyme, may bee moste clearlie knowne? And, what a Conscience doeth it argue, to amasse a number, where-of the application may breede but jangling; and, to keepe silence, of the moste notifying Notes of all?

Philadelphus.

You still mistake the Man, (Eubulus:) Charitie beginneth at ones selfe: and, accordinglie, their Poet is so full of Selfe-louelove, as hee never mynded to produce ought, where-by to praejudge his owne cause.

Philomathes.

But, what are those Notes, (Eubulus) with the fraudulent omission, where-of you doe charge our Man?

Eubulus.

I will essay, by a more formall Syllogisme, thanV. p. 113hee framed agaynst vsus, to leade you both to know them, and to acknowledge of them, that they so nearlie touch your Romish Church, as might make your Man thinke, they were no Wares, for him to exhibite:

What Companie teacheth Doctrines of Devils, and, by Devilish Dealing, doe verifie them-selues, to bee Satan's Children; that Companie must bee Haereticall.

But, the Church of Rome, teacheth Doctrines of Devils, and, by Devilish Dealing, doe verifie them-selues to bee Satan's Children.

There-fore, the Church of Rome, is an Haereticall Companie.

Philomathes.

In-deede, (Eubulus) your Syllogisme hath a better forme, but a much badder matter.

Eubulus.

And if I make the matter, as good as the forme,… then all shall holde good; where-in, yet, (that I may bee charitablie conceived) I meane by the Church of Rome, (as I hauehave, now more than once signified) the Evill in the Bodie, not, absolutelie, the Bodie affected there-with: the Papalitie, not all, who are named Papists: not all, who hauehave the Name, or Number of the Beast, but who hauehave his Character.

Philomathes.

If, even thus, you make your matter good, wee hauehave lost a Gayne.

Eubulus.

Then, let vsus examine the partes of mine Argument.V… I hope you will admit my Major.

Philomathes.

It can not bee denyed. It resteth you, to prooue your Minor.

Eubulus.

My Minor, or Assumption, chargeth Papalitie, VI…or charactarized Papistes, with two maligning Markes; Doctrines of Devils, and Devilish Dealing. I will, first, prooue the one, and then the other, also. That the Church of Rome, teacheth Devilish Doctrine, I prooue it thus:

Who forbid Marriage, and command to abstayne from Meates, which GOD hath ordayned to bee received with Thankes-giving, they teach Doctrines of Devils. p. 114duplicate page p. 115duplicate page p. 114But, the Church of Rome, forbiddeth Marriage, and commandeth, to abstayne from Meates, which GOD hath ordayned, to be received with Thanksgiving.

There-fore, the Church of Rome, teacheth Doctrines of Devils.

Philomathes.

The Major of your Argument, is from Paul, 1. Tim. 4. 3.1 Tim 4:3and can not bee denyed. I distinguish your Minor: for, if you say, that the Church of Rome, eyther forbiddeth Marriage, absolutelie, and, as a thing, absolutelie, and in it selfe, damnable: or, commandeth, to abstayne from Meates, absolutelie, as from thinges, absolutelie, and in them-selues, vncleane; (which is the forbidding, and commanding meaned of the Apostle) then is your Assumption false. But, that the Church of Rome, in some respects, and to some persons, forbiddeth Marriage; and, in some respects, commandeth, to abstayne from some Meates, I doe not deny. But, this is not agaynst the Apostle his mynde; who prophecied, in that place, of some ancient Haeretickes, in the Primitiue Church, who, absolutelie, damned Marriage, and diverse sorts of Meats, as, in them-selues, polluted.

Eubulus.

If so serious, and hazardous poynts, bee well, orIX. wyselie, put vponupon the danger of so cavillatorie a Distinction, devysed by Men, I report mee to your owne Conscience: that, others, before, hauehave beene in the same sinne, and, perhaps, in some farder degree there-of; what doeth that excuse the Romish Church; which, in anie degree, praesumeth to forbid, and command that, the forbidding, and commanding where-of, the holie Ghost affirmeth, to bee Devilish? Is not this to play, and that even perilouslie, in a serious matter? The Church (you say) doeth not condemne Marriage: but, the Apostle maketh even the forbidders there-of, to bee Devilish Doctors. And, yet, if who are in the flesh, are, in that, to bee condemned, (by the Apostle's Doctrine:) how can you absolue your Romish Church, of condemning…, ad Hime…, cap. 7. Marriage; when shee affirmeth, of married persones, That p. 115they are in the flesh? Now, where you affirme, the Apostle, in that Prophesie, to hauehave eyed onlie the ancient Haeretickes, absolute condemners of Marriage, and Meates; all circumstances of the place, evince, manyfestlie, that hee neyther eyed them onlie, nor principallie: but, that also, and principallie, the holie Ghost eyed your Church of Rome. I let this goe, that hee speaketh of the latter tymes, which yet (I am perswaded) hath a narrower relation, than that, where-by, I know, you will seeke to shift this poynt. Hee speaketh, there-with, of such, as, by great and cunning Hypocrisie, should hauehave so great place, as, by Authoritie, to forbid, and command. But, it is well knowne, that the ancient Haeretickes, mayntayners of these Doctrines, were, in their verie first out-setting, exsibilated, and abhorred, commonlie, of all: and, that, both they, and their Doctrine, soone evanished. So, as, it is playne, that so serious a warning of the Apostle, is chiefelie, in regard of more dangerous Doctours, and so farre, by Hypocrisie, obtayning place, and authoritie in the Church, as to come prowdlie to foreign, foreign, (interdicting, and commanding.) And, thus, (Philomathes) all your distinction, of myne Assumption, is vayne, and cavillatorie: and, so, will never vindicate your Romish Church, from the guilt of my Conclusion.

Philomathes.

Verilie, all-bee-it I dare not condemne the Church, or suspect rashlie of her, in these, or anie such poyntes: yet, I will not deny, but that I could hauehave wished her, to hauehave beene lesse audacious, in so perilous a Case, and to hauehave given you lesse advantage agaynst her heere-in. But, goe forwardes. You tooke, all-so, for to prooue, agaynst our Church, That, by Devilish Dealing, they verified them-selues, to bee Satan's Children; which was the seconde poynt, of your mayne Assumption, agaynst vsus.

Eubulus.

I prooue it, thus:X.

Who are Liars, and Murderers, like their father, the devill, p. 116their Dealing is Devilish; and, they verifie themselues, there-by, to be the Devils Children.

But, the Church of Rome, are Liars, and Murderers, lyke their Father, the Devill.

There-fore, their Dealing is Devilish; and, they verifie of them-selues, that they are Sathan his Children.

Eriphilus,

Is this, for-sooth, the calme Conference you protested for? And, are you the Man, that so farre abhorreth bitter Contention; who falleth, thus, not onelie to Bitternesse, but even to open Reproaches, and impudent Rayling? Did not you, in Disputation, about Poyntes of Doctrine, disallow all personall Criminations? Where-in, to all, and anie Instances, which you can bring agaynst vsus, when we hauehave opposed as manie, and as odious, on your side; shall not all our Dispute, but finish in a foule Flyting?

Eubulus.

I hauehave neyther, as yet, touched anie man hisXI. person, or spoken of anie personall Action, of Lying, and Murdering; neyther mynde I, by anie such Instances, to strengthen mine Assumption, howe manie, and howe tragicall so-ever, I might easilie produce, and those of recent Practise. So as, thus once agayne (Eriphilus) heate, hath made you too hastie. What-so-ever Instances you might oppose to mee, of our Men, in personall Recriminations; yet, I am sure, that you shall never verifie of anie, on our side, that they teach, and, by publicke Bookes, mayntayne, That it is lawfull to lie, and to commit Murder. So, as, if I prooue, that your ROMANISTES, not onelie practize privilie, but, all-so, teach, yea, and mayntayne, openlie, That it is lawfull to lie, and murder, I hope, I shall make mine Assumption good; and, yet, never a whit, there-fore, declyne from the course of a calme Conference, and Rules of a lawfull Disputation.

Eriphilus.

When you cleare so great a Calumnie, then shall I confesse my too great heat in an evill Cause.

p. 117Eubulus.

Will you not graunt mee, (Eriphilus) that,XII. vvho prayse the Arte of Simulation, and Dissimulation, to bee both good, and profitable, and, call it Prudence, and Vertue, yea, and a good Prudence: and affirme, That who vse it, are to bee praysed, those are Teachers, of Men, to become Liars?

Eriphilus.

You will not, so easilie as you trow, get mee in-trapped, with your Interrogatours: for, there is some even Godlie and prudent Simulation.

Eubulus.

I mynde no such Circumvention, as youXIII feare, but moste playne Dealing, for gayning of you, more than my Poynt. And, to showe you howe farre I am, from entertayning impertinent Plea, I will not, now, question with you, about this, howe well anie Simulation may bee made to accord with Prudence, and Pietie. But, let the Instances, which I shall produce, beare witnesse, vvhether they bee such, as may escape vnderunder this your Sconse. As for the Position, which I hauehave brought, in all the Poyntes there-of, your owne Man, Martinus Navarrus Aspilcueta, (vvho hath written a whole Treatise, of Aequivocations, in Favoures, as hee professeth, of the Iesuites, In Cap. humanae aures, 12. Quaest. 5.) affirmeth playnleie, In d. Cap. humanae, Pag. 352. & Pag. 349. Et pag. 351.

Eriphilus.

You may, perhaps, vvrong him, in this Imputation: But, and though anie one such Man hath vvritten so, yet ought it not bee counted a common Fault of our CHVRCH. Howe manie of your Men, mayntayne Poyntes, which your CHVRCH, yet, disadvoweth in common?

Eubulus.

If I doe wrong him, his Booke, and placesXIV there-of, alleadged by mee, will witnesse. And, that his Doctrine, is a just Imputation, agaynst your Church, is cleare, by this; That Pope Gregorie the thirteenth, approoved, and ratified his Doctrine, as (Sanctam, & inconcussam) holie, and stable. And, besides him, Gregorius de Valentia, a lesuit, Tom. 3. Disput. 5. Quaest. 13. de reo. punct. 2. p. 118calleth AEQVIVOCATION, (Prudentem Defensionem) a wyse Defence. The fore-named Navarrus, in d cap. humanae aures 22. Quaest. 5. Pag. 348. recordeth, and highlie prayseth an Aequivocation vsed by Saynct FRANCIS: vvho, beeing asked, by the Sergeantes, persuing after a Murder, If such a Murderer had passed that way? did put his Handes, in his Gowne Slieues, and aunswered, That hee had not passed that way. Vnderstanding, with himselfe, contrarie to common perception, that hee had not passed thorowe his Slieues. And, the sayde Navarrus, addeth, even there, (Hanc Doctrinam de Aequivocationibus, fundari in illo insigni facto magni illius Patriarchae FRANCISCI:) that this Doctrine of Aequivocations, is founded, vponupon that noble Fact, of that Great PATRIARCH, Saynct FRANCIS.

Philadelphus.

Besides that common dislyke, which al-most all the other Romane Clergie hauehave of Iesuites, I thinke, that the Cordeliers hauehave heere a proper Quarrell, and a most competent Plea, and Action, agaynst them: who thus take vntounto them-selues, wrongfullie, the Craft of AEQVIVOCATION; which, beeing founded on the noble Act of Saynct FRANCIS, should, with all reason, hauehave remayned the Propertie of his Familie: as, accordinglie, they were called, once, commonlie, LYING FRIERS: till, now, the Iesuites hauehave so farre encroached vponupon this their Right, as that, how farre so-ever the Friers bee still set to mayntayne their Title, yet the Iesuites doe farre exceede them, in all the cunning kyndes of Aequivocation.

Eubulus.

It is an vnlucklie Debate, where-in the VictorsXV. greatest Honour is, that, there-by, hee prooveth to bee the more neare sib vntounto Satan. But, to prosecute my Matter; The same Navarrus teacheth, that a person accused before a Iudge, who proceedeth not (juridice) lawfullie, is not holden to confesse the Trueth: but, may vse AEQVIVOCATION, mentallie reserving within him-selfe, some other thing, than his wordes doe sound: p. 119yea, eyther in Answere, or Oath, to his Iudge, or Superiour, that hee may vse a Bout-gate of Speach, (Amphibologia) whether through a diverse signification of the word, or through the diverse intention of the asker, and of him that maketh answere, and although it bee false, according to the meaning of the asker: in cap. Ne quis. can. 22. quaest. 2. The same Navarrus, instructeth a Witnesse, to depone, that hee knoweth nothing; reserving this within him-selfe, no thing that hee is holden to tell. And, hee giveth the same instruction, to Pleaders, who are requyred to giuegive their Oathes, de calumnia, or, of Veritie, Pag. 151. Toletus, a Iesuit, and a Cardinall, teacheth these same healthsome Lessons, Instruct. sacerd. lib. 4. cap. 21. Iacobus Sylvanus, aliâs, Keller, Iesuit, teacheth the same, Philipp. contr. Anonymum, &c. pag. 5. Besides all these, (Eriphilus) doe they not teach men to bee Liars, who affirme, that no Oath given to an Haereticke, or Infidell, is to bee keeped? And, yet, this was both inacted, and practized, in the Councell of Constance. Iacobus Simancha, Episcopus Pacensis, de Catholic▪ institut▪ cap. 46, al-so avoucheth it. Conradus Brunus, de Haereticis, lib. 3. cap. 15, determineth, that no Pactions, Conventions, Lawes, Confirmations, (rescripta) where-by Haeretickes obtayne Peace, and Securitie, ought to bee keeped, or counted of anie force, or effect. Now, if wilfull, and even purposed Perjurie, may bee counted Pietie; and if such impudent instructions of disguysing Trueth, you esteeme a prudent Simulation, (Eriphilus) I thinke him pittifullie imprudent, who hath anie dealing with you.

Philomathes.

I beseech you, (Eubulus) no more of this. For my part, I never lyked of that Doctrine of Aequivocation: And, I thinke, verilie, that the Church hath beene evill beholden to those Men, what-so-ever they were, who hauehave brought that Blot vponupon the Catholicke Fayth.

Eubulus.

Then, (Philomathes) of all others, the Church isXVI. worst beholden to the Pope, who hath approved, and confirmed, and yet still …hamelessie mayntayneth, that disgracefull p. 120Doctrine. And you, who see the Evill, are yet worse, than wo…st of all, beholden to your-selues; who, in so playnlie, a perceived Praevarication, yet suffer your selues to bee so sensleslie, and miserablie, miscarried. But, how-so-ever I bee, in this purpose, more playne than pleasant vntounto you: and that, even there-fore, I could bee content to speake no more of it, who am loath to grieue you in anie thing; yet, because I promised it to Eriphilus, and hee conceived, that I could not possiblie cleare such (as hee called it) a Calumnie, I must essay, to acquyte my selfe, in prooving all-so of your Romanistes, the other Poynt, and Note of their spirituall K…nred, propounded by mee, of Devilish Dealing: namelie, that they are Murderers, and teach men so, as well as Liars, and, thus, are Satan's vpright Children. Cardinall Baronius, in his Epistle agaynst the Venetians, speaketh thus; The Ministrie of Peter, (blessed Father) is two-folde, To feede, and to kill; according to that, [Feede my Sheepe] and according to that [Kill, and eate.] For, when the Pope hath to deale with refractarie, and averse parties, (as are the Venetians) then Peter is bidden, Kill, and slay, and packe them vp in his Bellie. Is not this, I pray you, reverentlie, and rightlie vsed Scripture? The same Baronius, in his Paraenesis to the Venetians, Pag. 9. It resteth, O Father, (the Pope) that you draw agaynst Malefactours the Sword of Peter; whom to this ende, CHRIST appoynted over Kingdomes, and Nations. Their King-killing Doctrine is too well knowne, and too tragicallie, what attempted, what archieved by them. Iohan. Mariana, Iesuit, de Rege, lib. 1. cap. 6. affirmeth, That Subjects, willing to doe so, may depose the King from his Princelie state: and, that from all memorie, it hath beene esteemed a prayse-worthie thing, who-so-ever attempted to oppresse Tyrants. And, Pag. 60. If no meanes bee of obtayning a publicke Convention, then who (favouring the common Wishes) shall attempt to kill a King, or Prince, I will not esteeme that hee hath done wrong. For, their advowed Impudencie, in this pernicious Opinion, let anie Man reade the Iesuit's Booke, De Henrici tertii abdicatione, which was put foorth at Lions, Anno, 1591: in the Praeface where-of, are these p. 121wordes; That seeing this is one, and the same common Cause, of that other Henrie, a wicked Tyrant, al-so, &c. therefore, it is, that since wee hauehave spoken of the just abdication of the first, wee desire, that wee may appeare so to hauehave spoken (de hoc quo que excludendo, immo conterendo & perdendo) of excluding; yea, downe-beating, and destroying of this other, al-so. Mariana, de Rege, pag. 59. for King-killing, alleadgeth the Exemple of E…ud: as if common and ordinarie actions, could bee warranded by extraordinarie, which ought not to bee drawne in exemple. And the same is brought, al-so, in defence of the Iesuits, Tom. 6. memor. lig. pag. 281: and, together with it, diverse Romane Doctors, are alleadged, al-so, to this same purpose, as Cajetan. Dominicus Soto. Thomas Aquin. Sylvester Fumus. But, that you may yet see portentuous, both Impudencie, and Impietie, Iohannes Mariana, Iesuit, De Rege, lib. 1. cap. 7. pag 65. & 67. hath these words; Quid interest ferro an vene…o per…as? &c. that is, What mattereth it, whether thou kill with Knyfe, or with Poyson? That which is done by Poyson, is done with lesse danger, and more hope of impunitie. VponUpon my Warrand, thou mayest vse Poyson: but, with this provision, that bee who is killed there-by, bee not compelled, him-selfe to drinke the Poyson, where-by hee may perish: but that it bee outwardlie applyed, by some other, without vsing anie ayde of him, who is killed there-by. Seeing, especiallie, that so great is the strength of Poyson, that eyther the Chayre, or Apparell, stroaked there-with, may hauehave force to kill. And, in the ende of that same Chapter, pag. 68. hee concludeth, That it is lawfull, by all meanes, to compasse ones death; so beeing, that neyther wittinglie, nor vnwittinglie, hee bee made his owne Executioner.

And, if it may neyther offende Philadelphus, (for some farre carnall conjunction hee had with him) nor you, (Eriphilus) who accounteth him an holie Martyr, I might adde to the former, a familiar, and late Proofe, of what Spirite those Men are, in that brayne-sicke Traytor, who beeing executed this other yeare, for peartlie practized, and phreneticallie professed Treason: yet, soone after, for-sooth, was canonized, and, by you, (Eriphilus) esteemed a Martyre. p. 122But it falleth you foule, that you can never finde one to fill vp that Roll, but Men, both accused, and clearlie convinced, of Theft, or Treason.

Philadelphus.

For anie Interest I had in that Man, I may, warrandablie, say, that, vvhat-so-ever hee bee, of HIS MAIESTIE'S Liedges, vvho eyther thinketh so of him, or speaketh of him, as a Martyre, hee meriteth, most justlie, to bee canonized, in the Catalogue of arrand Traytors; and, to receiue the Recompence of such. But, nowe, (Eriphilus) hath not Eubulus, thinke you, sufficientlie, cleared the Trueth, of that which you called a Calumnie? And, are these, for-sooth, the abstruse Mysteries, of your Iesuits Divinitie? And, howe jumplie, are they the Followers of IESVS; vvho, not onelie, are open, and audacious Encowragers to Murder; but, all-so, so cunning Informers, of all the diverse Manners, of mischievous working; and, are so well practized, in all the operatiue Powers, and application of Poyson; that, they may bee moste apt APOTHECARIES, for Pluto? And, it is goodlie to see, howe, in the open practise, of monstrous Impietie, yet they would make Asses belieue, that, at least, they kill conscientiouslie. For, they are so squimmish, for-sooth, as, in anie Case, they will not hauehave a Man made his owne Executioner. And, this is just such an Holinesse, as had the Priestes, and Pharisees; vvho, whyles they were, with all Falsehood, Crueltie, and bloodie, and vnbrydeled Rage, murdering the LORD IESVS, yet they would neyther pollute their Sanctitie,Iohn. 1…. 2…. Matth. 27. 6.John 1:2Matt 27:6 by entering into the Common HALL, nor receiue the pryce of Blood into their TREASVRIE. Thus, Hypocrites, even in the open Practise, of moste grosse, and detestable sinnes, yet beare the, justlie benummed, worlde in hand; that, because they strayne Gnattes, they can not, but, in a good Conscience, swallowe Camels.

But, vvhat a monstrous excecation, of Men, is this; that so prodigious Impietie findeth, amongst Professours of CHRISTIANITIE; not onelie Patrocinie, but, p. 123all-so, Admiration? Where-as, anie Heathen Man, of setled Senses, would skunner, at the verie mention, of such monstrous dealing: vvhere-by, all Bandes of Commerce, amongst Men, vvhichwhich eyther DIVINITIE, HVMANITIE, or NATVRE, by anie kynde of Lawe, hauehave established; are, impiouslie, vnhumanlie, and vnnaturallie, broken.

When GOD will not bee defended, with a Lie; neyther, will hauehave vsus to doe anie evill, that good may ensueIob, 1 … Rom. 3.Rom 3 there-of; shall a bare pretence of Zeale, and intention of a good ende, make more than Cyclopicke feritie, and devilish Deceit, to become good Religion? VVhat if those honest-hearted Heathen, whome the Record of Storie, extolleth so much for TRVETH, IVSTICE, TEMPERANCE, FORTITVDE, and others, MORALL VERTVES, (who yet knewe not the true GOD, nor the sole Way of LYFE) vvere raysed from the Death, and did see, and heare, what Men, called CHRISTIANS, and acclayming the Title of KNOWLEDGE, and HOLINESSE, from all others, doe not onelie practize, but professe, all-so; vvould they not bee perswaded, that all the Devils of Hell, had come foorth, vnderunder Ecclesiasticke Names, and Habites, to destroy the World?

Philomathes.

Let mee entreat you, (good Philadelphus) to insist no more in this Subject: other-wayes, you will turne Eriphilus Choler, into a burning Ague.

Philadelphus.

I will, at your request, forbeare it: yet so, as I must tell you this one word; That, I will rather choose, to bee mine owne Varlot, than eyther to hauehave the Chayre set vntounto mee, or mine Apparell reached mee, by anie Page, vvhichwhich hath passed his Prentiship, and, hath beene initiated, in the Secrets of the Chamber of Meditations. And, for Eriphilus, I will presentlie refresh his Mynde, with one Sonnet more; vvhere-by to prevent his Ague, or, at least, to giuegive him a mature Cooling, in the verie beginning of his Fitte.

p. 124Doctrines of Devils, with their Dealing joyned,

Are Signes of Satan's Synagogue most sure.

Wedlocke forbidden, Abstinence enjoyned,

From what the LORD proclaymeth to bee pure,

His Doctrines are: So is it not obscure,

Whom GOD designeth, to bee Devilish Doctors.

His workes are Lies, and Killing to procure:

And, such men are his proper Sonnes, and Proctors.

Your works, then, well be wray your Generation:

Knyues, Powder, Poyson, and Aequivocation.

Philomathes.

Your Syrope (Philadelphus) is little lesse vnpleasant, than your Potion: so, as Eriphilus hath to provide him-selfe, other-wayes, of Patience. But, leaving this, I will turne mee agayne, to Eubulus, who gaue the Wound, which you, well satyricklie hauehave rankled. You remember, (Eubulus) that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse, of HAERETICKES, in this mayne Syllogisme: To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES, doe properlie conveane; and, in whom are found manyfolde Defectes, which can not befall the true Church; they must, of necessitie, bee baereticall. But, to the Protestant Churches, the Notes of HAERETICKES, doe properlie conveane; and, in them are found manyfolde Defectes, which can not befall the true Church. There-fore, the Protestant Churches, are haereticall. The Proposition, of this Argument, you admitted. To the first part, of the Assumption, (as touching the Notes of Haeretickes) you hauehave so answered; that, labouring to cleare your selues, you hauehave layde over, well sadlie, that Imputation vponupon our Church. Nowe, then, all-be-it wee hauehave, the longer, but the lesse Esperance of prevayling; yet, seeing this other poynt (concerning the Defectes found in you, or affirmed of you) resteth nowe, onelie, of all our Man's Poēsie, to bee spoken of; I would heare your Aunsweres, all-so, vntounto his Interrogatours there-vponupon.

Eubulus.

Of this, (Philomathes) I will acquyte my selfe,XVII. p. 125with small a-doe; for, that, all-most, all the Defectes objected vntounto vsus, are, vponupon your Poet's praesumed Opinion, That wee want those Markes, where-of hath beene spoken: So, as, anie sensible Man, in that which wee hauehave all-readie sayde, shall finde all his subsequent Questions, sufficientlie aunswered. Besides that, else-where, I hauehave aunswered them, at such length, as my Discourse, heere, may bee the shorter, and you yet, aboundantlie, satisfied; if not with that which I now say, yet, with easie paynes, to reade mine other TREATISES. Nowe, then, reade foorth, in order, your Man's Questions.

Philomathes.

I will both gladlie heare, what you shall now say, and will not wearie, al-so, to reade what else-where you hauehave written. These, now, are the Questions.

You say, your Fayth did appeare,

For the space of sixe hundreth Yeare:When th… wicked ryse, hyde themsel but when th… perish, the Ri… teous increas… Prov. …. …

But tell mee, if thou can,

When Papistrie first began?

Where were the Servants of the LORD,

That none of them durst speake a word,

To defend the knowne Trueth?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle?

Did the Gates of Hell prevayle?

Did the Salt lose its savour?

Was the Bryde out of favour?

Was the Pillar over-throwne,

By vvhichwhich all Trueth vvas to bee knowne?

By this thou vvouldst prooue playne,

All CHRIST'S Promise to bee vayne.

Sea, Heavens, and Earth, shall passe in-deede,

But of this Word no jot, vvee reade.

Where hauehave you beene so long a tyme?

p. 126To vvhom did your Light shyne?

††Caput nostrum est in coelo: sed n… putes quod sit separatum caput a corpore. Discretum est enim loci…. sed junctum …ffectious. Angnstm. in Psal. 91. Chrysost. homil. 35. in Matth. cap. 20. Who-so-ever hee bee, that affecteth Primacie in Earth, shall finde confusion in Heaven: neyther shall hee, come in the coūt of CHRIST'S Servantes, who maketh businesse about Primacie.Ps 91Matt 20Where did your principall Pastor sit?

Who kept your Keyes? vvho fed your Sheepe?

Show mee some Church, that you hauehave built.

I can shew manie, that you hauehave spilt.

Were all damned eternallie,

Who vvere not of your Companie?

How might a Man hauehave found you out,

To hauehave tryall in matters of doubt;

When no such Companie did appeare,

For so manie hundreth Yeare?

Till LUTHER, a lying Frier,

On vvhom the Devill …ad desire,

Brake his Vow, and married a Nun:

And then your Haeresie first begun.

And favoured, in SAXONIE,

By a Duke, that loved Libertie.

And in King EDWARD'S tyme, truelie,

It first infected our Countrey.

For, a thousand yeares, you say,

That Papistrie did beare the sway:

And during all that space,

No Protestant did show his Face.

Who kept the holie Scripture then,

From the hands of wicked men?

Who had Authoritie, to ordayne,

Or make Priests, or Bishops, agayne?

For hee that entereth without order,

As a Thiefe, doth kill, and murder.

Hee is a Wolfe, and not a Priest,

And Enemie to our Saviour CHRIST.

And, one thing doth make mee muze,

That no Priest you did refuse,

p. 127Ordayned by the Church of Rome,

But hee was excepted soone:

If hee would say your Service,

Hee should hauehave a Benefice:

Without anie farder Order,

And accounted for the Better.

How may shee make a lawfull Priest,

If shee bee not the Church of CHRIST?

Answere this, if that thou can,

And I will bee a Protestan.

But, while your Answere you devyse,

I counsell all Men, that bee wyse,

To holde the Fayth mayntayned heere,

The space of a thousand Yeare:

Brought to vsus English-men,

By our Apostle, Sainct Austine:

Who from Rome vvas hither sent,

When EDWARD vvas King of KENT:

Who learn'd his Fayth of Gregorie …

Which Fayth vvas kept successiuelie,

By three-score Bishops, and three,

From Saynct Peter's tyme, vvee see:

Who learn'd his Fayth of CHRIST IESU,

Who is the Sonne of GOD most true.

To HIM bee all Honour, and Prayse,

Who doeth defende HIS Church al-wayes.

Eubulus.

You may perceiue (Philomathes) the trueth of thatXVIII. which I sayde vntounto you; that all these yourman's questions, are coincident, with the cases of Continuance, & Visibilitie, wherof we hauehave spoken: except, that, in end, for giving vsus a deadly blow, in his conceit, he close all vp, with the question of our Callings. And, to make cleare to you, how your man multiplieth words, in vayne, without knowledge, I reduce all his impertinent pratling, to this mayne Argument:

p. 128If things, affirmed by you, of your Churches, can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST, made to His Church, and Her certaine condition thereby: and, if you are forced, to acknowledge of the Church of Rome, that which can not bee competent to anie Companie, but to CHRIST'S Church; then are your Churches Haereticall, and the Church of Rome, is the Church of CHRIST. But, the thinges affirmed by you, of your Churches, can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST, made to His Church, and Her certayne Condition there-by: and that which you grant of the Church of Rome, is onlie competent to CHRIST HIS Church. There-fore, your Churches, are Haereticall, and the Church of Rome, is the Church of CHRIST.

Philomathes.

Verilie, our Poet, if hee were even heere present, could alleadge no Prevarication on you, in the vpright compryzing of the summe of his Discourse. And, if you shall answere to it, as clearlie, and ingeniouslie, as you hauehave ingeniouslie propounded it, vndoubtedlie the best of this Game will bee yours.

Eubulus.

The Proposition of his Argument, is true: butXIX. his Assumption, is extreamlie false: where-of hee laboureth, to fortifie the first part, touching the Defects alleadged on our Churches, thus:

The Promise of CHRIST, to His Church, is, That Peter's fayth shall never fayle: that, The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle against her: that, The Salt shall not lose its savour: that, The Bryde shall not bee out of favour: that, The Church shall remaine the stable Pillar of Trueth, &c. and, According to this Promise, the certayne Condition of the Church, is, That Shee al-wayes continueth, and is, visible. But, by these things, which you affirme, of your Churches, Peter's Fayth should hauehave fayled: The Gates of Hell should hauehave prevayled: the Salt should hauehave lost p. 129its savour: the Spouse should hauehave beene out of favour: the Pillar should hauehave beene over-throwne: and, the Church of CHRIST, should not hauehave continued, and continued visible. There-fore, thinges affirmed by you, can not consist with the promise of CHRIST, made to His Church, and her Condition, accordinglie: and, consequentlie, you are Haeretickes.

Thus, having, as hee thinketh, set vsus aside, from anie Interest in the Title of CHRIST'S Church: next, vponupon a ground, confessed by vsus, but miserable mistaken by him, hee buildeth a Conclusion, for the second part of his mayne Assumption, which concerneth the Church of Rome, thus:

To giuegive lawfull Ordination to Pastors, is competent onlie to the Church of CHRIST. But, you, Protestantes, acknowledge, That the Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawfull Ordination. There-fore, the Church of Rome, must bee the Church of CHRIST.

Doe you not, now, perceiue (Philomathes) whither your Man's meaning tendeth, by all this his great Squadron of Interrogatours: with the multitude where-of, hee would, in a Musicall Moode, over-whelme vsus?

Philomathes.

I now perceiue it well anough: you hauehave reduced all, to so cleare and compendious a forme. And, graunting the Major of his mayne Argument, you denyed his Minor. And, first, that part there-of, which, vponupon the Defectes, layde agaynst you, hee assumed of your Churches. For Probation where-of, I must confesse, that no-thing is brought, by him, in his second Syllogisme, but the all-readie disputed poyntes, of Continuance, and Visibilitie. Where-of you hauehave sayde …o much, as wee can not, goodlie, requyre anie more of you. So, that, except it please you to aunswere vntounto his last, and, appearinglie, insoluble Objection, agaynst you, grounded on your owne Graunt, of lawfull Ordination by the Church of Rome, I thinke, for mee, there p. 130resteth no other poynt vndiscussed of all our matter.

Eubulus.

Of his Objection, of lawfull Calling, by theXX. Church of Rome, and all that hee can possiblie build thereon, I shall, GOD, willing, eyther pay him, or prooue him al-readie payed, more than aboundantlie. And, al-be-it I hauehave before, al-so, spoken of the other poynts; yet, for more clearing, whether hee better prooveth, or I deny his mayne Assumption, let vsus take a short view of his Interrogatours.

Philomathes.

Then, saye to them, and wee will heare gladlie. Thus they are.

You say, your Fayth did appeare,

For the first sixe hundreth yeare:

But tell mee, if thou can

When Papistrie first began?

Eubulus.

Wee affirme, that our Fayth, which is the onlieXXI. true Fayth, hath appeared, not sixe hundreth, onlie, but, now, all-most, sixeteene hundreth yeares; though not in alyke evidence, at all tymes, or to all persones: and, though not al-wayes, perceived, even of them, to whome it appeared. For, as the Smoake of the bottomlesse Pitte, by degrees prevayled; so, was true Light, the lesse, and of theRevel. 9.Rev 9 lesser number, perceived, And, yet, even in the height of that Evill, (when a Throne was erected to Satan, in theThess. 2. and Revel. 11.Rev 11 Temple of GOD, and Antichrist obtayned, not onlie the Court of the Temple, but, al-so, all the holie Citie) there were Candle-stickes, still, in the Temple, and good numbers of Sealed Ones, following the Lambe, on Mount…evel. 14. and 7. and 9. 4. Syon, while all the miscarried Earth, followed the Beast: although none could heare, or learne, their Song, but themselues; who, in that common Apostasie, were bought from the Earth, to be the true Citizens of Heaven, al-be-it in the Earth, yet not of it.

Now, what tyme Poperie did first begin, what Man is hee, that needeth to make anie question, who readeth Paul, Thess. 2. 7.affirming plainly, that the Mysterie of Iniquitie, was even then p. 131begun to worke: or, who readeth Iohn, avouching that Antichrist1. Iohn, 4. 3. was even then in the World? That the first beginninges, and subtill Insinuation, were not, commonlie, marked, it was the LORD His wyse Dispensation, and Satan's deepe Deceit: for, other-wayes, it had beene no Mysterie. Doeth not the LORD Him-selfe, teach vsus, in Parable, ThatMatth. 13. 2…Matt 13:2 the envyous one, did sowe his Tares, even with the good Seede, in the LORD His owne Fielde; and, that, so covertlie, and subtillie, whyle the Servauntes were sleeping; that, all-bee-it mixed with the good Seede, and waxing in the midst there-of; yet, it is not espyed, vntill, by different Stalke, Flowre, and Eare, it bewray whose Hand did scatter it: so, as the verie Servants, al-be-it, by tyme, they see it growing, and waxing, and discerne it to bee adulterous; yet, they can not tell howe, by whome, nor what tyme, it was sowne? And, shall Tares, I pray you, bee counted good Wheat, except the moment, and first Sower there-of, bee showne? Your Man doteth, and deceiveth, in reasoning, Sophisticallie, from Poperie, in the first Seede, to Poperie begotten: and, even from Poperie begotten, in the first subtill Insinuation, and cunninglie-covered beginninges, to Poperie borne, and brought foorth: and, from Poperie, even brought foorth, but yet still masked, vnderunder fayre and plausible Pretences, and swedled vp, in the Clouts of GOD His Children; to Poperie, at length, kything, openlie, Teeth, Hornes, and Clawes: so, bewraying, evidentlie, vvhose Broode it was; all-bee-it long, and fraudfullie fostered, in the midst of GOD His owne House. Satan was, long, in all Subtiltie, and deepe Deceit, a-bringing out of that Monster, as the last, and greatest Master-stich, of all his Policie, and Power: and, much, and darke tyme, behooved to bee allotted, to the begetting of that great Hercules, of the infernall Iupiter. First, in the Seede: Next, in the Egge: vvhence Satan, long, and sedulouslie, sitting there-on, at length, hatched out a Serpent: which became, by tyme, a fyrie flying Dragon. For, the Beast arose out of the Earth,Revel. 13.Rev 13 slowlie, and insensiblie: not as that Tages, repente doctus p. 132in ipso nascendi Articulo. You may reade, if you list, (Philomathes) a more large Answere, to this same vayne Question, sent to my selfe, by one of your side, in my Discoverie of his Dotage there-in.

Philomathes.

I will, GOD willing, reade it. But, what say you to this?

VVhere were the Servantes of the LORD,

That none of them durst speake a word,

To defende the knowne Trueth? &c.

Eubulus.

They were even where Satan's Throne was:XXII. and, all-bee-it tollerating spirituall Fornication, (for whichRevel. 2. 13.Rev 2:13 the LORD had some-thing agaynst them) yet, keeping the NAME of GOD, them-selues, and, informing others, in the true knowledge there-of; they were in the Temple, whyle Antichrist trode downe the Court there-of,…evel. 11. 3. and the holie Citie: and, powerfullie, dispensing, there-in, both Light, and Grace, to true Christians; and, having Vengeance in readinesse, agaynst their Enemies; they were in the VVildernesse, both fedde, and feeding others. TheyRevel. 12. 6. 14. …evel. 14. 1.Rev 12:6Rev 12:14 were on Mount Syon, with the Lambe, both worshipping, purelie, them-selues, and leading others there-in; though none eyther heard, or learned, their Song, but the sealed Virgines, whyle the Beast miscarried all the Earth, to commit spirituall Fornication.

Thus, they were, all-wayes, and, both spake the Trueth, and, for the Trueth. But, the blynde, and stupified Sectatours of the Beast, neyther saw, nor heard them. For, howe soone the Beast of the bottomlesse Pitte perceived them: then was The Patience of the Saynctes: and, then, Blessed were …evel. 13. 10. …nd 14. 12. …evel. 11. 8.the Dead, which died in the LORD: then lay they vnburied, in the Streetes of that great Citie, which, spirituallie, is called Sodome, and Aegypt: and, then the VVhoore was drunken,…evel. 17. 6. …evel. 17. 3. with the Blood of Saynctes; and, the Beast became, whollie, of the Dragon's Colour.

Nowe, where, vponupon this, That no opposition was made p. 133by them, your Man concludeth, That, there-fore, none at all were; I pray you, (Philomathes) what kynde of Logicke doe you account it? Because, in Spayne, and Italie, no open opposition is made to Poperie; are there, there-fore, no Protestant, eyther Pastours, or Professours, in those partes? The future Ages, might, perhaps, bee induced to thinke so; because that so the Storie of the Tyme may carrie; no-thing beeing recorded, but what, in common, obtayneth in the Tyme. But, wee, who nowe liue, would laugh him to heading, as an impudent, or senselesse Liar, who would but denye, that, even in Rome, are hundreths, who holde the Pope, to bee Antichrist. And, howe great encowragement so-ever, our too great Lenitie, giveth them of kything; yet, would they bee contented, that their numbers, amongst vsus, were esteemed, but according to their open and advowed opposition? When the golden Calfe, was set vp,Exod. 3….Exod 3 in the Wildernesse, and that, by so common an Apostasie, as that Aaron was carryed away with the violent Streame of that Evill, it might appeare, that none had beene, there, for the LORD, or free of that common Guiltinesse: and,Exod. 32. 26.Exod 32:26 yet thousands did kythe in the convenient tyme of challenge. Were there none true, eyther Prophets, or Professours,1 Kings, 19. 24. 1 Kings, 18. 13. 1 Kings. 1…. 1….1 Kgs 1:1 in Israel, the yeares of Elias, lurking? And, yet, who spake publicklie for the Trueth? Did not even Elias thinke, that all were gone, when yet there were an hundreth Prophets, in one Caue, and seaven thousand true Professours, in one, and the same Kingdome? Shall Tolleration, speciallie in perilous tymes, conclude approbation, of what is tollerated, in all the Tolleraters there-of? Doeth not Augustine acknowledge, in his tyme, (where-in the Mysterie of Iniquitie, was not so farre advanced, but that Trueth still obtayned some place, in common) that, for regarde of the CHVRCHES peace, they were compelled to tollerate manie thinges, which, other-wayes, they vtterlie mislyked? Attour, in your Man's Objection, is another ridiculous Fallacie; by confounding the diverse and distinct tymes, and, accordinglie, the diverse and p. 134distinct degrees of growth, of that Apostasie, in the course of tyme: and, not distinguishing, accordinglie, the diverse sortes and degrees of Opponers, and of opposition therevnto. No Age, since the Apostolicke tymes, wanted its owne opposition, and Opponers, according to the degree of Evill, all-though they came not to that last, and highest degree, to which the open discoverie of the Evill, in the toppe of all importable, and vncurable Impietie, did force Men.

LoueLove, is ever loath to cast off, till all hope bee past. And, sober Men, some-tymes, in a laudable judgement; some-tymes, agayne, in weaknesse, will even choose, often, in a prevayling Iniquitie, rather to lurke, and keepe themselues cleane; than, with perilous Contestation, eyther to disturbe the CHVRCHES Peace, or object them-selues, to desperate Daungers. Which, not-with-standing, when they perceiue, that (vvithout playne perill of all Christianitie, and imputation to them-selues, of betraying the Gospell) Peace can no more bee keeped; will then, rather contest, with all hazard, than tollerate a clearlie-discovered, and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischiefe. Shall a Thiefe, bee counted no Thiefe, but from the tyme of his open Endytement? Or, shall the first beginninges, of injurious Vsurpation, on the one part; and, an vndoubted, and cleare Right, on the other; be reckoned onlie from the first publick poynts of Litiscontestation? A Man, disposed to Peace, will long beare, and, patientlie, expect Reparation of Wronges; and, even comport, with manie injurious Encroachmentes: vponupon hope, that Reason, and gentle Admonition, will bring the Partie to doe him measure. VVho, not-with-standing, at last, perceiving his Adversaries waywardnesse, and daylie progresse in wrong doing; will, then, intende playne Action agaynst him, for his Right. Nowe, shall the vsurping, and injurious Partie, hauehave, in this, anie reason, where-by eyther to justifie him-selfe, or eschew Reparation of all his by-gone Wronges, and vsurpation; because they were never, till then, challenged, in that manner, p. 135and degree? You may see more, heere-of, in my TREATISE, Defence of Ca…. Sect. 19. Rev. 1…. and 2….Rev 1of our CALLINGES, and COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION.

Philomathes.

Well: let vsus goe on.

Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle?

Eubulus.

No: but, if it had, what should hauehave followedXXIII. there-vponupon vntounto the Church, more than vponupon the fall of Iudas? What a ridiculous Question is this? as, if, on the standing, or falling, of anie one Man, or, what-so-ever number of Men, did hang the fall, or stabilitie, of the Church: which is builded, neyther on Man, nor Men; but, on that immooueable Rocke, which can not fall.

Yet, your Bellarmine confesseth, That, though the Pope should fall away from Trueth, yet, the Church should not, there-fore, fayle.

Philomathes.

You, who are so quicke a Carper of Aequivocations, fall, now, to the same Play, which you reprooue so often in our Poet. For, by Peter's Fayth, hee doeth not meane that Spirituall Vertue, where-with Peter was endewed, there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation, (as you would, perhaps, descrybe it:) but that Doctrine of Fayth, which Peter professed, and taught.

Eubulus.

Then, (Philomathes) the playing with Aequivocations, XXIV.shalbe still your Poet's part: for the Lord prayed, for the stabilitie of Peter's particular fayth, where-of Satan sought to sift him; &, which, remayning steadfast, was his Victorie, in that his Temptation, as I hauehave before signified. And if your Man, will hauehave it permitted vntounto him, by Poeticall Licence, agaynst the LORD'S mynde, to wrest Scripture, and to intitle, thus, the Doctrine of Fayth: yet, why is it called Peter's faith, more than Paul's, I am's, or Iohn's? And, why would not your Poet rather (according to Scripture speach) cal it the Faith of our LORD IESVS CHRIST? But, in what-so-ever sense, p. 136giving him, that the Fall, or Standing of the Church, had depended, whollie, on the fayling, or stabilitie, of Peter's Fayth; could that Fayth, bee no other-wayes preserved, but in the Church of Rome? And, shall the fall of Rome, conclude, that Peter's Fayth, and, consequentlie, CHRIST'S Church, is fallen? To make this Conclusion infallible; your Man must bring a better Argument, than a vayne vaunt, of a bare personall Succession: while, in the tyme, they are fallen away from Peter's Fayth, to the fayth of Simon Magus.

Philomathes.

Did the Gates of Hell prevayle?

Eubulus.

No: but they did so farre assayle, and with suchXXV. successe (in GOD His just judgement, and wyse permisssion) as Satan obtayned a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD.

Philomathes.

Did the Salt lose its Savour?

Eubulus.

It did so farre lose its Savour, in common; and,XXVI. such as should hauehave beene the Salt of the Earth, became so vnsavourie, that they could serue for nothing, but to beeRevel. 11. 2.Rev 11:2 cast out, and trodden vnderunder foot: (Cast out the Court, which is with-out the Temple, and mete it not, &c.) yet ever still the LORD had Ministers, so seasoned, with the Spirit of Light, and Grace, as they were, al-wayes, Candle-stickes, and Oliues, to the Temple: al-be-it, long, few, and labouring in manie Teares; and, at length, cruellie, murdered, by that vnsavourie, and vnsanctified Fellowship.

Philomathes.

Was the Bryde out of favour?

Eubulus.

Never: al-be-it, often-tymes, the BrydegromeXXVII. hath had some-what agaynst her: while, dwelling whereRevel. 2. 4. 14. 20. and 3. 1. 15.Rev 2:4Rev 2:14Rev 2:20Rev 3:1Rev 3:15 Satan's Throne was, and keeping even there, the Name of Her LORD; yet, in weaknesse, shee tollerated spirituall Fornication. Shee was never out of favour: yet shee hath beene often afflicted, and tossed with tempest, having no p. 137…. 54. 11.…: but, beaten, even of the Watch-men: and glad toCant. 5. ….Song 5 lurke, and to bee fed in the Wildernesse: while the maskedRevel. 12. 1…Rev 12:1 Whoore, with subtill deceit, made all the Earth to drinkeRevel. 27. the Cup of her Abhominations.

Philomathes.

VVas the Pillar over-throwne?

Eubulus.

No: but stood still stable, vponupon Mount SYON, XXVIII.with the Lambe; whyle all the Earth was, in GOD HISRevel. 14. 1. Revel. 13. 3. 8. 1….Rev 14:1Rev 13:3Rev 13:8Rev 13:1 justice, miscarried, after the Beast; receiving his Name, Number, or Character. And, so, (Philomathes)

CHRIST'S Promise prooveth true and playne, And your Man's Ballad is but vayne.

Philomathes.

VVhere hauehave you beene so long a tyme?

Eubulus.

Even where Satan's Throne was: and, evenXXIX. there, keeping the Name of IESVS, agaynst the terrourRevel. 2. 13.Rev 2:13 of Blood-shed.

Philomathes.

To vvhom did your Light shyne?

Eubulus.

To the hundreth, fourtie, and foure thousandXXX. sealed Virgines, Followers of the Lambe, by the Light shyningRevel. 14. 1.Rev 14:1 before them, and seene of them, (whyle all the Earth, depryved of Eyes, to see, wondered, blyndlinges, after theRevel. 11.Rev 11 Beast:) vvho, there-fore, rested not in the common pollution of the holie Citie, and Court of the Temple: but, stepped inwardes, to the Temple, where were, all-wayes, Candle-stickes, and Oliues.

Philomathes.

Where did your principall Pastor sit?

Eubulus.

At the Right Hand of the FATHER, yet fillingXXXI. all. For, in anie other, this Title were a sacrilegious Vsurpation of CHRIST His Honour.

Philomathes.

Who kept your Keyes? who fed your Sheepe?

Eubulus.

Even those, who (when all, in common, had lostXXXII. the Key of Knowledge; and, neyther entered them-selues,Lake. 11. 5…. Matth. 23. …3.Matt 23:3 p. 138nor suffered others, to enter into the Kingdome of Heaven) vvere still the true Lightes, and Oliues, of the Temple: and, vvho, at length, by the true Key, hauehave so opened vp, and discovered Antichrist his Deceit, vntounto the long-blynded Worlde, as, the Beast is going, sensiblie, to Destruction; though the characterized Companie, should never so much gnaw their Tongues, for Sorrow.

If the Scrybes, and Pharisees, to whom CHRIST objected, the losse of the Key of Knowledge, and, shutting of the Kingdome of Heaven, had layde over, agaynst Him, this your Man's Objection; and argued, there-vponupon, the fayling of GOD His Church; and, consequentlie, of His manie and great Promises: vvould Hee nor, soone, and easilie, hauehave aunswered, That, how-so-ever they had so fallen away, in common; yet GOD still had true, both Scrybes, and Israelites, even in the Bowels of that, commonlie, corrupted Bodie?

Philomathes.

Show some Church that you hauehave built, &c.

Eubulus.

A great manie, that you hauehave spilt. To yourXXXIII. Man, (Philomathes) Destroying is Building, and Building is Destroying. VponUpon, and by that Doctrine, where-vponupon wee build, and which wee teach, hath the true Church beene builded, and instructed all-wayes: as, by the right Rule of Examination, wee hauehave, a thousand tymes, evinced: and, hee, who gathereth not with vsus, but scattereth.

Philomathes.

Were all damned eternallie,

Who were not of your Companie?

Eriphilus.

Seeing, that without the Church of CHRIST, there can bee no Salvation: and, that you doe take to your selues, the Title of the CHVRCH, and denye the same vntounto the Church of Rome: I would gladlie heare, (Eubulus) what you can aunswere, to this Question: and, how you can, so vnwynde your selfe there-of, as not to fall, in some one of these Absurdities: namelie, That eyther all our Fathers, p. 139manie hundreth yeares a-goe, were damned eternallie; and, that, nowe, all-so, all Men, professing Poperie, doe perish: or, you must acknowledge, the Church of Rome, to hauehave beene, and, yet, still to bee, the Church of CHRIST: in which case, your Churches must bee haereticall.

Eubulus.

I will aunswere directlie, and, even, categoricallie,XXXIV. to your Man's Question: and, even, so, clearlie, free our selues, of all your Absurdities. But, I must, first, protest, for your patience, (Eriphilus) that you will not start at my first wordes; which, may, perhaps, appeare strange, vntounto you: vntill I hauehave cleared them; and, there-with, hauehave vnfolded the Deceit of your Man's Question.

I aunswere, then, and affirme, playnlie, That all were damned eternallie, who were not of our Companie. For, there is but one Way, one Veritie, and one Lyfe. And, yet, it shall neyther followe, heere-vponupon, that, all, our Fathers, in Ages past, were damned: or, that, all, presentlie called Papistes, and professing so, doe perish. For, wee are not so praesumptuouslie audacious Determiners; or, so vncharitable judgers of other Men, as your Men are of vsus; secluding, absolutelie, all who die in our Communion, from Everlasting Lyfe. But, it is well, that, to them, all judgement is not committed. Neyther, yet, heere-vponupon, shall eyther the Church of Rome, bee made the Church of CHRIST; or, our Churches, to bee haereticall Companies.

Eriphilus.

I will take to mee patience, according to your Protestation, to attende the clearing of these so evill-consisting Assertions: all-bee-it, I feare, that my patience, in this poynt, shall neyther beget mee EXPERIENCE, nor HOPE.

Eubulus.

Who hardlie conceiue HOPE, may, haplie, fall toXXXV. …e ashamed: but, the aequivocation of this word [COMPANY] where-in lyeth your Man's Cavl…lation; and, according vhere-vntounto, you are also misc…led in the word [CHVRCH] …eeing cleared: that, where-of you despare, to finde the Experience, or, con…ine the Hope, shall bee manifest, and certayne, to anie, who will perceiue, and bee perswaded.

p. 140First, then, I say, That all Christian Churches, are one Church; and, all Christian Companies, are one Companie: vnited, at least, in one common Profession, of the NAME of CHRIST, and in one Baptisme, beeing all vnderunder one, and the same generall Ensigne: and, so, within one and the same Catholicke Church, (as the same is absolutelie, all-beit not most properlie, taken:) but, not all, truelie, and properlie, of it. For, within the Catholicke CHVRCH, are CHRIST, and Antichrist; PROTESTANTS, and Papists; Orthodox; and haereticall Christians. Now, agayne, in this one, and generall Church, and Companie, there bee manie diverse Companies, (as in a great Armie, are severall and distinct Bandes, discerned by their proper, and particular Colours, and Cognizanses) according as they are divyded, each from other: and, that, eyther vnnecessarilie, by prydefull, and vncharitable Renting, of turbulent Men: or, necessarilie, for keeping the cleane, and health some partes of the Bodie, from the dangerous Contagion of affected parts, in that same common Bodie.

In a diseased naturall Bodie, (Eriphilus) three distinct Considerations, offer them-selues to bee observed: First, the Bodie in it selfe. Secondlie, the Evill, or Disease in the Bodie. And, thirdlie, the Bodie affected with the Evill, or Disease. The health some Bodie, or considered in its owne naturall state, is one thing. The Bodie affected, or diseased, is (in that consideration) another. And, yet, the Disease is the third. The Evill, or Disease, all-bee-it it bee in the Bodie, yet is it not of the Bodie: but, the affected, or diseased part, is of the Bodie: not, in that it is affected, or diseased; but, in that it communicateth, yet (all-bee-it weaklie) with the Lyfe, Sense, and Motion of the cōmon Bodie. Agayne, vvee must put a difference, betwixt partes diseased, which,…vel. …. 2. all-bee-it heavilie affected, and having partes readie to die, yet are not past Physicke, but may bee cured, and quickened, by the Purgation of the Worde, and Spirit; and, such as are quyte dead, in the Evill, and are incurable, as now, no more part-taking of the common Lyfe, and Sense of the Bodie: p. 141as in an Hydropicke Bodie, some partes will bee free, by liuelie Vigour repelling the vicious Humour; some, not all-to-gether free, but yet lesse affected: some, much affected, and readie to die; but, yet, in some measure, communicating with the common Lyfe, Sense, and Motion of the Bodie: some, lastlie, in which the vicious Humour hath quyte drowned, out of all Sense, and Motion.

Nowe, to cleare this, by Accommodation: I say, That the BODIE, is the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH, in which are all sorts of Christians: the Evill in this Bodie, but not of it, is Haeresie, Antichristi anisme, or Papalitie. Now, as a much different, and distinct consideration, was put betwixt the Evill, considered in it selfe, and the partes of the Bodie, affected there-with: and, agayne, amongst affected parts, a great difference betwixt those, who yet retayne lyfe, and Motion, and are cureable; and others, who are dead, or consumed by the Disease: So, (Eriphilus) you must not confound PAPISTES, and PAPALITIE; ANABAPTISTES, and ANABAPTISME; BROWNISTES, and BROWNISME. GOD forbid, that wee judge so hardlie, as, because PAPALITIE, ANABAPTISME, BROWNISME, &c. are damnable, that, there-fore, all who are called, or professe them-selues PAPISTES, ANABAPTISTES, BROWNISTES, are damned. Because, all-bee-it affected, in some degrees, and even dangerouselie sicke, of those Evils, yet they may hauehave the lyfe of the common Bodie; part-taking, thus, with the common Head, and bee curable, by the Purgation of GOD. How manie PAPISTES, ANABAPTISTES, BROWNISTES, are there, who, not knowing the deepnesse of Satan's deceit, (where-with some of their Seducers, and manie al-so of their Companies, are infected deadlie, and diverted from all true lyfe) are, in simplicitie of Heart, miscarried, with glistering and plausible pretences, of the Church of Zeale, of Puritie, singular Holynesse, and such lyke; having yet, and, all-bee-it some-what affected, holding the lyfe of GOD, and true Foundation? And, so, in p. 142distinct considerations, are of one, and the same Companie, with all good Christians, and true Professours: and, yet, are not of one, and the same Companie. Because, al-bee-it one, in the common Bodie, and some measure of the common Lyfe, yet separated each from other: for keeping the cleane partes free, not from the others partes, but from the Evill, where-with they are affected; till GOD, by the Purgation of His Word, and Spirit cure them.

When wee dispute agaynst the Church of Rome, and deny her the Name, or Title of CHRIST's Church; wee meane the Papalitie, not all Papistes; Antichristianisme, not all, who, in simplicitie of Heart, are miscarried after it, (which no more justlie may be excluded, from the account of Christians, than those two hundreth Men, accounted Traytors,2. Sam. 15. 11.2 Sam 15:11 who went with Absolom, from Hierusalem) those who hauehave received the Character of the Beast, (agaynst whom, onlie, in all the Revelation, is wrath, ever denounced) not all such, as hauehave received, but his Name, or his Number: as, handling thisChapter 13. same Question, in my COMMENTARIE on that Booke, I hauehave, at more length, cleared. And, thus I hope, that, if you will, you may see, how it standeth true, that all were damned eternallie, who were not of our Companie: and; yet, not all who were, or are, called Papistes, are damned. Neyther maketh this the Church of Rome, to bee the Church of CHRIST: because such Papistes, as are saved, are not saved by the destroying, and consuming Gangrene, where-with they are affected, and which fighteth agaynst the lyfe of GOD: but by the remnant of the lyfe of the Bodie, so farre, as yet, prevayling in them, that the evill hath not gotten force, to suffocate, or extinguish it. In which respect, they were, and are, of our Companie: as, in some measure, joyned to, and holding still, the same Head: al-beit each from other separated, eyther by an vnnecessarie wound, of turbulent Men, or, by a needefull disjunction: and (al-be-it not all in a-lyke measure of strength, and health) enjoying the Common Lyfe. For it is not divers Nominations, whether foolishlie taken, or, at apperite p. 143imposed, that disjoyne the, so diverslie named; eyther from CHRIST, or from the Communion of His Bodie, and Lyfe. It is a grosse Sophistication, in your Men, what is true of the Catholicke Church, to conclude, that, properlie, of anie one part thereof: but, it is both grosse and impudent, to conclude the Properties, and Priviledges, of the Bodie, of the inherent and consuming Gangrene in the Bodie, but not of it.

Eriphilus.

By this your Discourse, (Eubulus) you make it an indifferent thing, what eyther Companie, or Religion a Man bee of. And, if one may attayne Salvation, being Papist, Protestant, Anabaptist, Brownist, or what you will, so hee professe CHRIST; to what ende make you so great a stirre? And, why goe you about, by all meanes, to hauehave vsus converted vntounto you? Doe you not see, that, whyle you would fayne appeare, to hauehave Charitie, you over-throw all Pietie?

Eubulus.

Because, (Eriphilus) in Cities, and Houses, infectedXXXVI. with Plague, or Leprosie, Men may liue, as who eyther may escape the Contagion, or bee cleansed, or coole out of it: is there, there-fore, no regarde to bee had, what Citie, or House, a Man come into? Or, is all care, to keepe the Cleane, from the Foule, superfluous? Or, is there no care to bee had, of curing the Diseased, and cleansing away the Contagion? In such Companies, some, possiblie, may liue, and escape the Evill: but, the abode, is extreame dangerous, and Death more readie, than Lyfe.

VVithout the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH, it is moste true, that there can bee no Salvation, But, it were high praesumption, for the most pure worshipping Companie, in all that common Bodie, to confine, absolutelie, all Salvation, within their particular Societie: how-so-ever, Salvation, there, must bee moste assured, and lesse danger of Damnation. So, as, (Eriphilus) in this your Objection, is little, eyther Pietie, or Charitie, or common Sense.

Philomathes.

Whether the Disease of the Bodie, bee with vsus, or with you: vvhether it bee Papalitie, or Lutheranisme; p. 144I will not, now, more dispute, much lesse, determine. But, verilie, (Eubulus) I can not, but much allow your Discourse, which is no lesse solide, and true, than it is quicke, and subtile. And I commend, much more, your charitable judgement in this case, than our Men's hard determinations of you. And, you hauehave, exceeding well cleared, that this charitable Opinion, can, nor should, diminish nothing, of that Care, which lyeth on all Men, to search, and embrace Trueth. But, let vsus come to the rest of our Interrogatours.

How might a Man hauehave found you out,

To hauehave tryall in matters of doubt;

When no such Companie did appeare,

For so manie hundreth Yeare?

Eubulus.

To this Question, I hauehave, al-readie, answered,XXXVII. more than once: and, it is the same, which, more than thrise, your Man hath not beene ashamed to demaund. For, from that Question, [where were the servants of the LORD; that none of them durst speake a word▪ ] what hauehave all his Interrogatours beene, but a pievish repetition of one, and the same thing, in substance? Anie truelie-lightened, and humblie, and sincerelie seeking, might al-wayes hauehave found vsus out, vnderunder the common Ensigne. And, if, perhaps, Errour had so farre prevayled, in common, as hee could finde, or heare, nothing, in all the holie Citie, and Court of the Temple, but the Dragon's mouth; yet Candle-stickes, and…evel. …1. Oliues, were never wanting in the Temple. And, even when all the Earth, committed Fornication, following theRevel. 14.Rev 14 Beast, yet Virgines would hauehave found, on Mount Syon a Song, which chaste Hearts might heare, and learne. To your Man's Rhetoricke, (where-by, heere, in a Poëticall licence, hee looseth his Tongue so liberallie, vponupon, LVTHER) I disdayne to answere: but, referre him to the Fish-Market, where-of his Aeloquence most smelleth. I come to examine his Logicke. Because before LVTHER, and p. 145such others, as were in the same Age, and cause, with him: none did contest, so openlie, or in so high a degree, agaynst Antichrist; doeth it follow, there-vponupon, that none, at all, were before him? VVhy, then, were IOHN HVSSE, and HIEROME of PRAGVE, an hundreth yeares, ere then, cruellie, and barbarouslie, burnt; agaynst publicke Fayth, and assurance, given them? VVhy were all the Bo…emian Churches, so sore vexed? Because the two Witnesses, Revel. xi. after the Spirit of Lyfe, had entered in them, stoode more vigorouslie, and advowedlie, than before: and, because, by Divine Warrand, at that poynt of tyme, they were first bidden, Come vp hither; their Enemies saw them, and were afrayde. And, so, then, first, they were, publicklie, separated, from Antichrist his Contagion; and his Kingdome beginneth to take an open fall, (where-by the Holie Ghost, paynteth out, playnlie, the tyme, and dealing, of LVTHER, and his Fellowes, in their State, Course, and Condition:) vvill it conclude, there-fore, that those Witnesses, were not till then? or, that they did not contest agaynst Evils, before that tyme, all-be-it not in that degree, eyther of Strength, or Successe? Had not the Beast, ere then, murdered them, even with applause of the Worlde? Yea, and before anie advowed Contestation with him, or Violence from him, were they not long prophecying, in the Temple; all-bee-it lurking, and in Sacke-cloath?

Because, in KING EDWARD'S dayes, the abolishing of Poperie, and reparation of true Worship, were, first, by publicke Lawes, established; vvill anie Logicke conclude, heerevpon, That no Protestantes were, before that? VVhere-fore, then, were so manie martyred, before the dayes of KING EDWARD? VVhat did your Men meane, by the barbarous raysing of IOHN WICKLEFE, and his Disciples Bones, some Ages before that?

The Name of PROTESTANTS, (your Man would say) was never heard of, before LVTHER. But, I pray you, (Philomathes) were it good Logicke, to conclude, That never a Christian was in the Worlde, before a Church was p. 146raysed in Antiochia; because, till then, that name was notActs▪ 11. 26.Acts 11:26 heard of? Will your Poet admit, that where Poperie is not, by lawes, established, there no Papistes are at all? Poperie, in-deede, did beare sway, for the space of a thousand yeares; for, so long tyme, the holie Ghost putteth betwixt the Dragon's imprisonment, at which poynt of tyme, Antichrist Revel…ion, 20.had his first open degrees of vsurpation, to his loosing agayne: at which poynt, that Mischiefe was come to the toppe of all sacrilegious Impietie. But, it did not beare, all that tyme, a-lyke sway; neyther, at anie tyme, vniversallie, with everie one, how-soever it did commonlie, with all: but had much different, and slowlie, and slielie comming-on, degrees, which your Poet confoundeth, most vnskilfullie: and, there-vponupon, no lesse chyldishlie, in different tymes, and cases, yet requyreth one, and the same Manner; and, one, and the same Measure of Contestation. Which, in GOD'S wyse Providence, was reserved to the challenging of the Beast, in the height of his impietie, for working of his fall. Hee was, first, a fraudulent spotted Pard; but, byRevel. 13. 2. Revel. 1…. 3. Revel. 13. 1. Revel. 17. 3. Revel. 2. 14. Revel. 2. 20.Rev 13:2Rev 1:3Rev 13:1Rev 17:3Rev 2:14Rev 2:20 tyme, became of the Dragon's Colour. Hee, first, had on his head, the name of Blasphemie; but, by tyme, all his bodie was full of the names of Blasphemie. Hee, first, craftilie, layde stumbling Blockes, as Balaam; but, by tyme, the Whoore; horne vp by him, lyke furious and bloodie Iezabel, did, openlie, over-throw all true Worship, erect Baal, and drinke the blood of Sayncts. Finallie, (Philomathes) this your Mens Question, (where-by they so much stupifie the Simple) Where was the Church, so manie hundreth yeares, &c? is, even, just, such a Question, as, if one, who had lyen long diseased, convalescing, at length, should be asked, by one, who had never seene him, walking in perfect health; Where were you, before this tyme? To which foolish Demaund, as hee might, verie well, answere, That hee, both had beene, before, and, were the same selfe Man, which the Demaunder had seene before: al-though not in the same state, and condition.

p. 147So, wee affirme, That the CHVRCH, is still, the same CHVRCH, vvhichwhich was, all those hundrethes of yeares, where-in they woulde appeare, to make Her a-missing: but, that Shee was long sicke, by a long, slowlie, and, at first, insensiblie comming-on, Disease: vvhichwhich, at length, had become extreame daungerous, and deadlie; but that, by the Cure of Her LORDE, Shee hath convalesced of it.

And, it were an extreamlie ridiculous Clayme, If, in a Bodie, vvhichwhich had beene over-gone, with a great Disease; and, yet, by the power of the Noble partes, retayning Integritie, had so farre recovered, that even the Dregges, and force of the Sicknesse, were fallen into the Legges, and Feete: If, there-fore, (I saye) the swollen Legges, and Feete, shoulde denye the rest of the Bodie, and take all Priviledge there-of, to them-selues; because, they, for-sooth, kept still the Dregges of a long Disease.

As the CHVRCH, at first, even in the Apostolicke tymes, and, some whyle after, retayning PVRITIE, and Spirituall Health, was the CHVRCH: So, afterwardes, contracting Sicknesse, in all the growing Degrees thereof; yet was still the same CHVRCH; all-bee-it▪ not in the same good condition, of Health, and integritie, of all her Members: and, nowe, agayne, by the Purgation of of the WORD, and SPIRIT, convalescing, is yet, still the same CHVRCH; all-bee-it in a greater Degree of Health, than before.

And, still the CHVRCH lived the same Lyfe of GOD, all-though not, all-wayes, in a-lyke measure, and force. And, the Evill, or Disease, was still one, and the same, wasting the Lyfe of the CHVRCH; all-be-it, not, at all tymes, in a-lyke force, or seene working; neyther, yet, ever, over-going, vniversallie, everie Member: howeso-ever, it, in common, over-went, and affected, all. For, it never, vtterlie, extinguished the Lyfe of GOD, in the CHVRCH. If your Doctours would; or, if your p. 148seduced ones, could, vnderstand this; all your Mens vayne Objections, of the Church, should goe in Smoake. But, of this matter, I hauehave written so largelie, in my Defence of our Callinges, and, Discoverie of the Adversarie's Dotage; as, I wearie, heere, to multiplie so manie words vntounto you. And, this, which I hauehave, now, more than once sayd, sufficientlie answereth your Man's next Question.

Philomathes.

The next Question, is:

Who kept the holie Scriptures then,

From the hands of wicked men?

Eubulus.

In this Interrogatour, I can not tell, whetherXXXVIII. hee showeth him-selfe, more ignorant, or impudent: for, first, it is asked, as if nothing had beene in the Bodie, but the Sore. If, besydes the consuming Gangrene, there was ever a Bodie, where-in it was, and, though affected therewith, in common; yet, having Members, some lightlie affected, some whollie free of that Evill; how shamelesse is your Man, in this his question? Next, what if the keeping of Scripture, had beene even by the contagious Companie? Is this eyther impossible, or a new thing, to the LORD? And, hath it not fore-going Examples, of the lyke marvelous dispensation, to the high commendation, of His Wisdome, and Providence; but, where-in the Keepers hauehave nothing to glorie of? Did not the Iewes, who neyther pleased …. Th…ss. …. 15.GOD, & were Enemies to all Men; who crucified the LORD of Glorie, and rejected Salvation; and, on whom the wrath of GOD was come, to the out-most; yet, by His wyse disponing Providence, keepe, so carefullie, the Canon of holie Scripture; as, there-fore, they obtayne the name of (Christianorum Librarii) The Libraries of Christians? Made not GOD, the holie Vessels of the Temple, to bee, carefullie,E…ra, 1. 7. kept, even in Babylon, till the tyme of Restitution? And, what wonder, then, if, in mysticall Babylon, the Vessels, and Instruments, of the true Sanctuarie, were long, both p. 149kept, and captived? And, may not the Conformitie of Case, so jumplie aunswering, make vsus, to advert, in a deepe Heavenlie Wisedome; howe those former thinges, were, also, in GOD HIS Purpose, Stampe… of thinges to come? Was not the Arke of GOD, kept, carefullie, amongst the Philistimes? Of what Moode hath your Man beene, (Philomathes)1. Sa…. 6. …. when hee mooved, so ridiculous a Question?

Philadelphus.

Why should you so much marvell heereat, Eubulus? You did tell vsus, before, That their Poët, in this his Armie of Interrogatoures, did more trust in the M…ltitude of all, than in the particular Strength of anie one. And, in such common Convocations, it is no wonder, though manie bee founde, not well appoynted, in their Geare. And, nowe, verilie, I count it straunge, that Men, professing great thinges, yet should not onelie, bewray a shamefull Want, both of Light, and Sense, in laying, for the onelie Rules of Examining, and discerning GOD HIS Trueth; What, or vvhere, or vvhat tyme, or by what Men, ought hath beene mayntayned, and, moste commonlie, holden: But, even not obscurelie taxe the ALL-MIGHTIE, as leaving His Church, so weaklie warranded, of the Way of Trueth.

Not when, nor where; not who, nor what a number,

Moste carried Vogue, is moste to bee inquyred.

Satan (seducing) with the Spirit of Slumber,

Soone, wydelie, Starres, and multitudes inspyred,

GOD gaue vp Men, to what their Hearts desyred.

Thus Satan's Throne was set, ev'n in the Temple.

Trye Trueth, for Errour earlie was ing yred;

Wee liue by Lawes, and not by loose Exemple.

In darkest tymes, some true light aye remayned,

Though secretlie, and, but of some, retayned.

p. 150Philomathes.

Wee are, nowe, come to our last poynt, and, as wee account, the moste choyse Shaft, in all our Quyver. Our Man's last part, of his Discourse, vponupon this poynt of HAERETICKES, you reduced, (Eubulus) vntounto this Syllogisme:

If thinges, affirmed by you, of your Churches, can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST, made to His CHVRCH, and her certayne Condition there-by: and, if you are forced, to acknowledge, of the Church of Rome, that which is competent, onlie, to CHRIST His Church: then are your Churches Haereticall; and, the Church of Rome, is the Church of CHRIST.

But, the first is true.

There-fore, the second, all-so.

Eubulus.

That was, in-deede, the Syllogisme, where-in IXXXIX. compryzed this last part of your Man's poeticall Discourse, vponupon HAERETICKES.

Philomathes.

There-of, graunting the Proposition, you denyed the Assumption; and, hauehave, accordinglie, done your best, to show it false, in this part, that anie thing is affirmed by you, of your Churches, where-with the Promise of CHRIST, can not consist. The other part of the Assumption, seemeth, yet, to stand strong: namelie, that you are forced, to confesse, that of the Church of Rome, which can not bee competent, but to the Church of CHRIST: and, there-fore, that the Conclusion, at least, for that part, is true: namelie, That The Church of ROME, is the Church of CHRIST. This poynt, confessed, by you, of Rome; and, which can bee competent, to none other Companie, but to CHRIST His Church, is the lawfull Ordination of Pastours; as you, your selfe, did, before, verie formallie, take vp, in this Syllogisme:

To giuegive lawfull Ordination, to Pastours, is competent, onlie, to the Church of CHRIST.

But, Protestants acknowledge, That Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawfull Ordination.

p. 151There-fore, the Church of Rome, was the Church of CHRIST. And, consequentlie, Protestantes are Haeretickes, who hauehave forsaken her communion.

Eubulus.

If I hauehave well, and clearlie, over-throwne theXL. first parte of his Assumption, as you confesse, (Philomathes) that I hauehave done my best, to that effect: consider, vvith your selfe, vvhat Feete, the other parte there-of, can possiblie finde, for to stand vponupon. But, to try this: You acknowledged▪ That I prooved no Praevaricatour, in taking vp the summe of your Man his Argument: but, that, vprightlie, I hauehave brought it foorth, in all the strength his wordes can giuegive it.

Philomathes.

I acknowledge it, in-deede; and, approoue your Ingenuitie, in such poyntes.

Eubulus.

Then, will I, as clearlie, vnfolde to you, theXLI. manyfolde Deceit there-of. For, first, his whole Argument, is a beguiling Sophisme; à communi indiviso, as the Schooles speake; to bee a separate parte in the Communitie. And, to cleare this, I will, orderlie, goe thorowe the partes of his Syllogisme. You hauehave to advert, the deceit of his Proposition: For, that lawfull Ordination of Pastoures, is competent, to no Companie, or Bodie, but to the Church of CHRIST; it is moste certayne. For, the Ordayners of Pastoures, must, of necessitie, hauehave outward lawfull Place, and power, in the visible CHVRCH: in which, except they, both were, … did, all-so, obtayne, Place, and Power there-in, they …uld bee no lawfull Ordayners at all. Nowe, because that Bodie, in common, in which all lawfull Ordayners are, and must bee, is, vndoubtedlie, the Church of CHRIST: there-vponupon, to insinuate, that all, or moste parte, of Ordayners, in this Bodie, are of it: and, though lawfull Pastoures, yet, eyther true Pastoures, or Christians, it is a Sophisticall Deceit, à communi indiviso, as I hauehave sayde. And, vponupon your Man's Proposition, thus, rightlie vnderstood, and, as it can onlie bee admitted, to bee true; when you hauehave assumed, that, Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawfull Ordination: yet, shall you p. 152never bee able to conclude more, heere-vponupon, than, That the Church of Rome, is in the CHVRCH, and common Bodie. Where-by it was, (before visible Separation vvas made, from that Contagion, in, but not of the Bodie, by divine Commandement, to the VVitnesses, to Come vp, hither) that Ordination given by the Church of ROME, …. 11. and 14.was lawfull Ordination. And, that, which, a little before, I aunswered to your Man's Question, (Were all damned, aeternallie, Who were not of your Companie?) may cleare to you the infolded Fallacie of this your Man's Proposition also. For, vvithin the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH, are CHRIST, and Antichrist; TRVETH, and Lies; WHEAT, and Chaffe; PASTOVRS, and Wolues; the true TEMPLE, and the Abhomination of Desolation, standing, all-so, (in sanctis Ecclesiae loc… ) in the holie places of the Church; the Bodie, and the consuming Gangrene.

Nowe, vponupon that, which is proper, and competent, to the whole Bodie; and, there-fore, rightlie propounded of the Bodie, in common: and, which, all-so, is rightlie assumed, not onlie of partes of the Bodie, (because, of that Bodie:) but, even, of the Apost…me, or Gangrene, (because, in the Bodie,) to conclude, That the Gangrene were in the Bodie, it will holde: but, to conclude, there-of, That i… is of the Bodie, it will not: much lesse, That it is the onelie, and selfe Bodie. Shall the Sore, in the Bodie, appropriate, there-fore, to it selfe; or, glorie of the naturall, and liuelie Actions of the Bodie, because it is in the Bodie; yea, and hath even over-gone the Bodie, in common? A man hath the Goare, in his Legge: which Legge, all-bee-it, in an hudge degree, festered; yet, walketh, and mooveth, through the remnant of living, and mooving power, which it yet retayneth. Nowe, shall the Goare, heere, glorie, that, by it, the Legge walketh, and mooveth; vvhere-as, it is, by it, that the Legge creapeleth, and halteth?

Lawfull Ordination, is a good, yea, and proper Action, of the Church of CHRIST: not of the Goare, or for the Goare, which is in the Church, and stayneth it: but, p. 153through the Lyfe, and Power of the Head, yet remayning in the Bodie, al-be-it affected, and having divers Members, even corrupted, with the Sore. Papalitie, is the Goare in the Church, but not of it: of which, to conclude, the proper Actions of the Church, because it hath place there-in; and there-vponupon, farther, to conclude, of it, the Title of the Church, and Bodie, whose, properlie, the Actions are; it is but a fraudulent Illuding. Neyther, because lawfull Ordination, is a proper Action of the Church of CHRIST, will it, there-fore follow, That who ever giuegive lawfull Ordination, are of the Church, how-so-ever they must bee in it. For, as I hauehave, else-where, evinced, clearlie, lawfull Ordination, may bee taken from a Wolfe, and Thiefe, who, as yet, still retayneth outward Place, and Power of ordayning.

Thus, then, (Philomathe… ) if your Man's Proposition, bee vnderstood so, as, that, where ever lawfull Ordination of Pastours were, that Bodie, (considered whollie) behooved to bee the Church of CHRIST, I yeeld it to be… true: but, if hee, fraudfullie, would insinuate, That all with-in that Bodie, who gaue Ordination, were the Church, or of the Church of CHRIST, then is his Proposition deceitfullie false; and hee concludeth nothing.

Now, let vsus see his Assumption. (But, the Protestants acknowledge, That Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was Lawfull Ordination) This Assumption, as it may bee vnderstood, in an…e of two diverse Senses; so, I must, accordinglie, answere it. For, first: if by the name of the Church of Rome, bee vnderstood, the common Bodie of the visible Church, al-be-it, at that tyme, affected, so farre, even in common, with that Antichristian Sore, as by Fraude, and tyrannicall Vsurpation, the Name or Number of the Beast, sitting there-in, were imposed: al-be-it numbers, there-in, never received his character; I grant his assumption … bee true: but, where-on, hee shall conclude nothing, eyther agaynst vsus: or for the Church of Rome, as wee oppugne her. p. 154For, wee never pleaded agaynst the Bodie; neyther hauehave wee ever separated our selues from the Bodie, as your Men would fayne bynde vponupon vsus: but, wee pleade agaynst Papalitie, in the Bodie; and, hauehave separated our selues, from the Sore, and such deadlie contagious parts, as are infectiue, and incurable: offering, still, the purging Medicine of GOD HIS Word, for the cure, and Health, of all affected Members, who will admit Physicke; and, for destroying of the annoying, and eating Evill: praying GOD, heartilie, for the perfect convalescing of the whole Bodie. And, the Sore, is still more than ridiculous to oppone, for defence of it selfe, the actions, or properties, of the Bodie, where-in it is: for, with-in that Bodie, even affected, in common, and bearing the name or number of the Beast, were, alwayes, numbers, of not onlie lawfull, but, also, true Pastours, to giuegive Ordination. For, a sicke Bodie, is still a true, and living Bodie: but, the Sicknesse, in it, is no part of it, and is Enemie to the Lyfe there-of. Next, agayne, if, by the name of the Church of ROME, your Poet vnderstand, even the Papalitie, or characterized Papistes: that is, the incurable parts, deadlie festered with the Sore, (which onlie wee impugne:) then, al-be-it not absolutelie, yet, in some respect, wee grant, the Ordination, even so given, to hauehave beene lawfull: namelie, so long as they retayned outward Place, and Power of Ordination; before Antichrist's full detection, and separation of the revived Witnesses, from the contagious Companie. Because, albe-it the Ordayners were Wolues, and Thieues, yet they were not, in common, knowne to bee so: but, retayned still, with all, in common, the reputation, if not of true, yet, of lawfull Pastours. In which case, the receiving of Ordination, from them, was nothing praejudiciall to the sincere Receiver of the same, who had not, as yet, espyed them to be Traytors. And, this Lawfulnesse was not, because it was ministred by the Sore, or deadlie festered parts in the Bodie: but, because those festered parts were still in the Bodie of the Church, and, in common, all-so, esteemed to bee p. 155of it: and, al-be-it dead, incurable, and contagious, yet were not cut off, outwardlie, from the Bodie: thus, retayning, still, the account of Members; al-be-it, in effect, they were none, but a deadlie consuming Evill.

If your Poet, poore Man, had eyther vnderstoode, or considered, what, I thinke, I hauehave, playnlie, layde before you: if hee had not beene, first, a verie shallowe Ignorant, and vnstable PROTESTANT; and, now, (I warrand you) no profound PAPIST: howe could this hauehave, so much, stupified him, and casten him into such a Musing; that, in the REFORMATION of the CHVRCH, wee made no question, to receiue, and vse, the MINISTRIE, of PRIESTES, ordayned by the CHVRCH, which hee calleth ROMANE?

For, as the Bodie, all-bee-it affected, yet was the Bodie: So, the Calling of the MINISTERS therein, all-bee-it taynted, and corrupted, in common, yet, was a CALLING; and, that, according vntounto the state, and tyme, lawfull.

And, your Poet his Muzing, hath, heere-in, so marred his Memorie; that, forgetting what they moste object agaynst vsus; hee yeeldeth vsus, heere-by, that our PASTOVRES, and REFORMERS, had an ordinarie Vocation.

Nowe, as I hauehave opened, the implyed Deceit, of your Poet his Proposition, and Assumption, you may see, (Philomathes) what Conclusion hee can bee able to builde therevpon; eyther for the Church of ROME, not-withstanding anie Confession of ours; or, yet, agaynst vsus.

And, this, for-sooth, is the Argument, where-of all your Men, so much glorie, as, they doe entitle it, their INVINCIBLE ARGVMENT: and, where-in your Poet hath so much pleased him-selfe, that hee hath reserved it, for his last Blowe: and, falleth, even for to muze, what wee can bee able to answere there-vntounto: and, is so secure, of getting none Answere from vsus, as, hee is content, to set this, to all his Disciples, for a terme of adhering to the Romish Faith: p. 156till wee, for-sooth, finde out an Aunswere there-vntounto. But, besides that little, which I hauehave, heere, sayde, as I thinke, I hauehave aunswered there-vntounto, so at length, and playnlie, in my Defence of our Callinges, and Epistle, to a Recusant, (where, of purpose, this poynt is handeled) as, I neede not, heere, at this tyme, insist farder there-in. I referre you, to those TREATISES, for a more distinct Light, and fuller Resolution heere-in. Which, if you shall reade, with care, and that Ingenuitie, which I conceiue to bee in you; it may fall, that your Poet repent him, of praefixing you so short a tyme, to remayne a Romanist.

Philomathes.

I will, GOD willing, reade them, both carefullie, and vprightlie. And, seeing that in them, as you say, this poynt of matter, is purposelie handeled; I will not vrge you to speake more there-of, at this tyme. For, even in the little, which you hauehave sayde, you hauehave given mee some-what more, to muze vponupon, than I expected: and, which will stirre mee, to search what, more accuratelie, heere-of, you hauehave, else-where, written.

Philadelphus.

I hope, (Philomathes) you shall finde your selfe so satisfied, in this, which your Men esteeme, and call, their Invincible Argument, by reading those TREATISES; and, shall finde it, in them, so solidlie aunswered, as though your Poet should not onlie fall from his Muses, to muzing: but, even, from Muzing, should fall to Madnesse; yet shall hee never bee able, to make there-vntounto anie sound Replye. As for his Counsell, which, vponupon vayne Confidence of this his Argument, hee giveth, of cleaving to the Romish Fayth; let them follow it, whom GOD hath not, and vponupon more …ure Groundes, advysed better.

If hee were able to prooue, eyther, That the Doctrine, preached by his Apostle, AVGVSTINE, was the true, and vncorrupted FAYTH of CHRIST; or, that, since AVGVSTINE'S tyme, it had not received great Increase of Corruption; hee might the better bynde vsus to his Counsell. But, bare Personall Succession, without Evidence of the principall, and moste proper Succession, vvill never p. 157conclude that. And, your Poet prooveth, but still lyke him-selfe, and closeth vp his Ryme, ridiculouslie, in bringing it.

Our Callings, still, you, impudentlie, quarrell,

Though Ansvveres you hauehave gotten manie one.

Your Poet's prickt, with playne approaching Perill,

Of your Empyre, and Romes now tottring Throne.

Not daring more our Doctrine then oppone,

Hee fettleth, faultie to finde our Vocation.

Forgetting strayght, and what hee sayeth, anone,

Muzing, hee mooues to vsus this Exprobuation;

That Popish Priests, with vsus, kept Place, and Title.

Your Poet, poore Man, muzeth much on little.