Defense of the Lawful Calling of Ministers of Reformed Churches, Response

Defense of the Lawful Calling of Ministers of Reformed Churches · Response

p. 1TO A RECVSANT, FOR CLEARING AND MAINTAINING SOME POINTS IN THE PRECEEDING TREATISE, challenged by a Roman Elymas, Bar-Iesus-it.

RECOVERING, some dayes since, a copy of my Treatise in defence of our callings, which had fallen in your handes some moneths agoe: I perceaved that it had passed the examination and censure of some one of your ghostlie Fathers: (if I misdeeme not) even the same, whose pamphlet against our callings stirred me to the defence of them, yet so, as, amids divers dumbe draughts of a silent Aristarchus, there is but one onelyonly open challenge through all. Which (while he is perhaps, a breeding of a bigger birth) his weak heart could not keep, til, with the rest, it should be timely borne: thinking, belike he had, theirin, so cleare an advantage over me, as, vponupon that place, he might be bold to put out some speach: thus to intertaine his applauders in hope that hee had also much to say against the rest. But, if this his glorying Goliath, so confidently stepping out single shal be easilie foiled, it may well be presumed, that, with noe great a doe, the rest of his dumbe Host may be made both to flee and fall.

Over a place; in my Treatise, he setteth this signe, ✚. and therewithal, this saying, agree this and the other places that is marked with this signe. My wordes, first signed by him, are p. 2these. And the Lord his wyse providence for preserving thus his church in the mids of Antichristian vsurpation (while hee appeared to possesse all) was wonderfull: in that, even in time of greatest corruption, yet asure accesse and free way was still reserved through Citie and Court, to the Temple, the Sacrament of Baptisme, in substance, remaining; and the doctrine of the Trinitie being keeped sound. Sect. 7. The places, thereafter, signed with the same signe, and, in the challenger his conceat, contradicting this, are two: and these both, Sect. 10. the first in these wordes. Yea wee are so farre from this disorder, & do so farre both reverence and maintain ordinarie vocation, that in a constitute Church holding the foundation (albeit, otherwayes, divers things therein, not only for maners but also for maner of worshippe, did require reformation) if any man of howe great gifts soever, yet, without ordinarie calling should intrude himselfe to be a Pastour: we would no otherwayes account of him then of a seditious and turbulent Spirit, who, either, fanatikly, presuming of graces, would vainlie despyse order: or, for some infirmities and defects, would arrogantly and vncharitably breake the vnitie of the Church.

Now, that I may the more clearly recōcile any apparant repugnācy betwixt these places, I wil, first, set down, (as I can take it) the challenger his conceaved cōtradictiō, thus,

VVho in a constitute Church holding the foundatiō, &c. would intrude himselfe, without ordinary calling, to be a Pastour, is to be accounted a seditious & turbulent despyser of ordre, and an arrogant and vncharitable renter of Church vnitie.

But the Christian Church, since her first constitution, alwayes, even in time of greatest corruption, hath holden the foundation.

Therfore, who at any time, without ordinary vocation intruded himselfe to be a Pastour therein, he was but a sedicious and turbulent despyser of order, and an arrogant and vncharitable renter of Church vnitie.

I wil not, here, dallie vponupon these words (intrude himselfe) which in no case can ever be lawfull, and may never bee iustly said of any who is truely, albeit, extraordinarlie, sent out by God. I come to the argument. The proposition of the sillogisme is mine owne, & I can not disadvow it. The p. 3assumption (that we iangle not about the state of our question) must be cleared from equivocation. for, no question, but the true Church elected according to the purpose of grace, hath alwayes, and ever shall holde the foundation, without which shee could be no true Church at all. But, from the true Church and elect, to the visible Church, the argument concludeth not. Next againe, albeit, in a right sense, it be true of the visible Church, that she ever holdeth the foundation: because within the compasse of the visible Church the true militant Church abydeth alwayes, as vnderunder the common ensigne: yet, hereupon, to conclude, that, alwayes, visibly, & the visible Church, tota communiter (whole in common) doth hold the foundation, it is a seene fallacie. for, she may fall from the foundation tota communiter (the whole in common) but, never vniversaliter singuli in ea (vniversally each one within her.) And howesoever mine adversarie will not yeeld me this point, yet hee can not but condescend, that this is, here, the state of our question: whither I have, in my first signed wordes graunted so much, as will cōclude cleerly against my selfe that even the visible Church, & whole in common, ever holdeth the foundation. which is the assumption of this syllogisme: & which he thinketh to prove out of mine own words, thus:

VVhere the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance, remaineth, and doctrine of the Trinitie is keeped, sound, that Church holdeth the foundation.

But, in the Church, alwayes, even in time of greatest corruption, the Sacrament of Baptisme, in substance, remained, & the doctrine of the Trinitie was keeped sound.

Therfore, the Church alwayes, even in time of greatest corruption, held the foundation. and, consequently, no place was at any time in her, since her first constitution, to extraordinarie calling. VVhichWhich is contrarie to my position.

The proposition hath an equivocation: which to discover, and, so, to avoid the deceit intended thereby, I distinguishe thus. If by the Sacrament of Baptisme, in substance, bee vnderstoode all the substantiall matter by Baptisme p. 4represented to our knowledge, sealed vp through faith in our conscience, and, all the grace thereby, through the cooperation of the holy Ghost, conferred to vsus: and, if by the doctrine of the Trinitie, be vnderstood whatsoever we are taught and doe beleeve of that triple one, either in himself or his dispensation towards vsus, and our duetie againe to him: in that sense, I yeeld the proposition to be true. But, if by the Sacrament of Baptisme, in substance, remaining, be vnderstood only the sacramental action in the substantiall rites thereof, so making it still to bee counted lawfull baptisme in substance, albeit otherwayes, miserablie infected with many superfluous and superstitious ceremonies: and, if by the doctrine of the Trinitie, no more be vnderstood but that only one point of God one in substance and three in persons: without which, and the solemne invocation thereof in baptisme, even the substance of that Sacrament were abolished: then the proposition is clearlie false. And the proponer would but illude in the words Substance and Doctrine. except hee will affirme, that, for the foundation of our faith, no more were requisite but these only two points. And thus, (outtaking Samosatenus, Sabellius, Arrius, and Manes, and such others as, either before or after them, vnderunder whatsoever divers names, symbolized with their particular errours) all heretikes of whatsoever sect or tyme shalbe reputed to have holden the foundation. So shall Nestorius, Eutiches, and Appollinaris bee absolved from fundamentall errours: so shall the denyers of the resurrection: so shall the followers of spirits of errours, and teaching doctrines of devills: so shall the Nicolaitans teaching and committing fornication and idolatrie, have kept the foundation. Shall not the incarnation of the aeternall Sonne; the personall vnion of the assumer and assumed; the naturall veritie of both natures in that one person; bee counted foundamentall? Shall not the onelyonly mediation and merit of that Person; his Propheticall, Priestlie, and Royal offices, and actions thereof; the perfection, efficacy, and vertue of all, be counted foundamentall? Or shall the p. 5bare holding of GOD one in substance and three in persons bee any foundation at al to such as in the other points doe overthrow it? It is strange that one acknowledging that the baptized by heretiks are not to bee rebaptized, &, consequently, acknowledging the baptisme ministred by them, to be baptisme in substance: which yet it could not be without the invocation of the Trinitie: should yet, vpō baptisme remayning in substance, and that one point of the trinitie of persons thinke the foundation to be keeped, when not onelyonly open perverters and direct oppugners of foundamentall points, but also adders of anie other to that only one foundation (by the Apostle his sentence) doe even fall from the foundation which, otherwayes, they would appeare both to professe and keepe. The Sacrament of Baptisme and sounde doctrine of the Trinitie still kept in the visible Church, and even in tota communiter, was ever a sure and free entrie, and, as Augustin speaketh, opportunum inquirendi exordium (a common and convenient beginning to inquire by: but yet so, as who, thereby entring, held the straight course to the Temple, where were the Candlestickes and the Olives, and to mount Sion, where was the Lambe: These, indeed, held the foundation, and the gates of hell never prevayled against them. But, who entring by that common entrie, declyned from the right way leading to the Temple and mount Sion: and, did fall aside vponupon, and rest in the common pollution of Citie and Court: following, wondering after, and worshipping the Beast and the Dragon (even that abhomination of desolation, standing also within the visible Church, in Sanctis Ecclesiae locis, as sayeth Chrisostome,) these fell so from the foundation, as, even that which to the others was the entrie and faire way to the Temple and Mountaine, was to them of no more value, then if they had never entered at all. For that, in missing of the rest, they loosed even that also, which otherwayes they appeared to have, as, in the foundation of a large Citie, who raiseth so the building as hee keepeth but one p. 6stone of all, must of necessity even fall from that also: and bee no otherwayes said to hold the foundation then Saul pleaded that hee had fulfilled the commandement of the Lord, which, notwithstanding, the Prophet affirmed hee had casten away, and, therefore was justly cast away of the Lord from being king of Israel. Thus, then the proposition of his argument being evidently false, his conclusion also faileth, and my two places doe well and clearly consist. And, considering how we doe charge the Church of Rome with intollerable prevarications, almost, in all fundamentall points (against that one GOD, in giving his glorie to creatures: against the verity of Christ his humane nature by their prodigious transubstantiation: against al his mediation, offices, and actions thereof, by many fold and sacrilegious derogation, vsurpation, mutilation, and overthrow of all the perfection, fruit, force, and effect thereof) so as the censurer cannot dissemble the cleare knowledge of my meaning in granting them the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance, and sound doctrine of the Trinitie; in this consideration (I say) how can his challenge of contradiction, in my wordes, bee excused of either childish triffling, or shameles cavillation; or both?

Now, albeit what I have already said, aboundantlie serveth for reconciliation of the other place signed also by my censurer, yet let vsus see what is the contradiction hee would inferre thereupon. My wordes, and continuallie, following the former, are these: But if corruption hath so farre prevailed that the faithfull City hath become an harlot, and all her silver be turned in drosse: if her husbandmen have become murtherers and her builders have become destroyers: if from the Prophet even to the Priest everie one followeth after lyes: if there be a conspiracie of her Prophets in the mids of her like a roaring Lyon ravening the pray: if her watchmen be all blind and know nothing: if they be all dumb doggs and can not barke: if they lye and sleepe, and love to sleepe: if her Pastours know nothing nor vnderstand, and looke whollie to their owne wayes: if night bee to them for a vision, and darknes for a divination: in such a case, &c.

p. 7Now, to commit my selfe, with my selfe, he would, appearantly, reason thus:

Extraordinary vocation (by my owne position) hath only place in such a corrupt state and case of a Church, as that the faithfull City hath become a harlot, and all her sylver is turned in drosse: her husbādmen are become murtherers, etc.

But, the case of the Christian Church even in tyme of greatest corruption was never such.

Therefore, by myne owne position, no place, was in her, at any tyme for extraordinarie calling. And, so, I am contradictour to my selfe.

The Proposition is mine owne. The Assumption (of the visible Church) is false. And hee seeketh to succour it from my Position thus:

Of a Church keeping the Sacrament of Baptisme, in substance and sound doctrine of the Trinitie, no such case, as I have put, can be truely affirmed.

But, by mine owne position, the Church, even in tyme of greatest corruption, hath keeped the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance, and sound doctrine of the Trinitie.

Therefore, of the Church, at no tyme, such a case could bee truely affirmed. And consequently, no tyme ever for extraordinarie calling. VVhichWhich, by mine owne Position, hath only place in such a case.

The aequivocation of the Proposition, I cleared in my answere to his first conceaved contradiction. Now, in the sense, ther, shewed to be mine, a church, holding only these points, albeit shee erre in, yea and overthrow most part of all other foundamentall grounds, and, consequently, even these same which she seemeth to hold, also: that, notwithstanding, the holding, barely, of these, may vindicat her from the blame of my proponed case, I even muse if my challenger will affirme it. And, that (taking hold, perhaps, on the peremptorie and precise strictnes of the wordes) he would, thus, reason: that where but even so much is holdē as I have yeelded, & even in the sense I have called myne, there, all cannot bee turned in drosse, neither can Pastours, p. 8there, be said to know nor vnderstand nothing, &c. and consequentlie, that no such case, as I have put, hath ever be fallen, I will hardlie be induced to beleeve, or that a man of any sense or shamefastnes will bewray himselfe to be so ridiculous a jangler. Wherein yet he should not contend with me, but with the Lord, whose the wordes are, and not mine: and who chargeth therewith a Church holding more of the foundation, then ever we will grant to the Church of Rome: who, in the abhominations she doth commit, hath iustified the Church of Iuda, of whom the Lord affirmed my proponed case: and, which, therefore, more iustlie, a great deale, might have alledged against the precise strictnes of the Lord his accusatiō. They held the Sacrament of circumcision, the name of the God of Israell, the outwarde profession of his Covenant and worshippe; and the publike practise thereof in dayly sacrifices & oblations. And, had they place, herefore, to plead, that all their silver was not turned in drosse? The Lord, in challenging our defections, whē the substantial groūds are most parte subverted, hee pleadeth a totall apostasie. His owne Bellarmine, telling howe, iudiciouslie, to reade and make right vse of the sayings of the Fathers, might have taught your man, that in Homilies to the people, where, in vehement contestations, speaches are, of purpose, framed, rhetorically, and hyperbolically to force of perswasion, for sturring motion, and for agreaging and amplification: they are, then, to be wyselie distinguished from a scholastike and more presse and proper maner in laying down foundamental points: and, that they are not to be alike or indifferentlie drawn for stablishing or prooving heads of faith, in the praecise strictnes and proprietie of wordes. for, one and the same man will have a much different maner of stile in homilizing and in dogmatizing. Not that, therefore, the Fathers, and much lesse, the Lord (who though all men were lyers, yet abydeth true) did say … then truth. But that from a figurative, rhetoricall, & hyperbolike truth, to conclude a truth, in praecise p. 9strictnes of proper signification, it is either foolishe ignorance, or perverse tergiv…rsation. And, to shorten all disput, herein; I would aske your ghostly Father; so beeing that all, wherewith we do charge the Church of Rome, & wherupon they with vsus and we with them have nowe, so many yeares contested, and doe contest stil, were verified against her; if, in that case, she could bee denyed to be the very Synagogue of Satan? and, that the case, proponed by me, might not be as iustlie said of her, as hee dare not deny but it was obiected to Iuda: except hee would belye the almightie? Nowe, whither wee charge her rightly or not; in our disput here, it were impertinent, and a slyding from the cause in hand, either for him to pleade the one, or me to proove the other: the question, here, betwixt vsus, standing so, as I having laid this ground, that in a condition of a corrupted Church, (and such as I proponed) extraordinarie vocation may have place. and, againe, pleading, that the condition of the Church, in common, at the beginning of our reformation, was such: whither, if, by yeelding her, still, and, even then, the Sacrament of Baptisme in substance, and sound Doctrine of the Trinitie, I have admitted ought which contradicteth mine own positions. which to evince against …, I thinke it must cost your Confessour some more paines, then, but in passing by only to point at it. This his proposition beeing false, hee concludeth nothing, and my places doe yet well consist.

In an other place, … on my margent this word (REMARK) without any … sig…fication for what defect he would make me, th… …. thinking, belike, the absurditie of my … exposed to the perception of any, as a gene… sufficient to make the Reader advert it. My w…es are these. Sect. 8. And, seeing that outward ordination, and all … action of the Ministers thereof, serveth but for outward order, all inward grace, power and vertue, comming from God the Author of the calling: what absurditie is it that a good pastour receave ordination of a VVolfe, who, yet, …th the place of an ordinarie Pastour in the Church; more then a tru… p. 10Christian to receave the Sacraments from a rēprobat, beeing, alwayes, an ordinary Minister? which Sacraments, yet, by the inward cooperation of God, are effectuall to the receaver for, it is sufficient for an outward ordinary calling that the Minister thereof have outward place & power of ordination, albeit he be but a Hyreling and a Thiefe. And, the receaver of outward ordinary vocation, as he hath all gift and grace from God only, whose the worke is, so is he not tyed or sworne to the will or appetit of the outward Minister, but only to the Lord: no more then any Minister, Baptizeth in his owne name, but in the Lord his, whose badge and cognissance only we take on, thereby, and not of the Minister thereof, &c. I will not thinke my remarker so remarkeably grosse, as that he thinketh the efficacie of the Sacraments to depend on the worthines or vnworthines of the Minister thereof. for, in the contrary of this, I hope wee doe both agree. and, againe, that he, who holdeth ordination to be a Sacrament no lesse then any of the other, wil deny the same common case of it also, I have no reason to imagine: Neither yet, for my similitude, taken from the common condition of Sacraments, that therefore, hee would think me to make ordination also a Sacrament (with him) in the most strict and proper signification. for, the similitude of things, in some cases, maketh not things, alwayes, to be the same. and, thus farre, I hope wee shall accord in the truth and convenience of my similitude: that, as the Minister of Sacraments (having still outward place and power) neither conferreth inward grace, for any worthines in him, neither letteth the collation thereof through his vnworthines, so, neither doth the vnworthines of the ordainer (having … place and power of ordination) let the effectual … ordination in him who is ordained: everie good gift …escending from above from the Father of lights. For, there is but one Lord who hath led captivitie captive, & giveth gifts to men: my adversarie wil confesse this also, that frō what Bishop soever the Sacraments may be receaved (except Baptisme, which, in honour of Christ, forsooth, he relegateth not only to Woemen but even to Iewes and Turkes) from the same Bishop ordination, may p. 11be receaved also. but, as I can scanse at his meaning, hee thinketh my errour to be, in this remarkeable: that, to him, I appeare to make it all one thing or alike to receave the Sacraments or ordination from a Wolfe or Thiefe, as to rereave them from a hyreling or reprobate. which, if I did, absolutly, hold, and did accordingly, reason, from the one to the other: it were, indeed, a manifest halting in Logike, and therewith, no sounde point of Divinitie also. The course of my argumentation, in my treatise, is so at length and evidently led, and my cases so clearly put, as, I am sure, no vpright hearted Reader could ever have fallen vponupon so sinistrous a conception. but, it is the maner of men, who read only to resist, to snatch at syllables, and wrest parcels of mens speaches so to maintaine iangling. And seeing that my remarker, albeit hee hath busied himselfe most, yea, and almost, only on the 6.7. and 8. sections of my Treatise (as his tokens left thereupon well shewe) yet even there hath vnderstood least, and, either hath not conceaved, or deceitfully dissembled my meaning: I will, therefore, heere, summarily resume the substance of my matter, and drift of my discourse there.

VponUpon the prerogative of the Bishop of Rome, a long tyme reputed head of the Churche, and all ordinarie vocation flowing (in that respect,) either mediatlie or immediatly from him, our adversaries labour to inferre against vsus, that either we have never had any lawful ordination at all, or then have fallen from it. Because, that the Bishop of Rome was, then when our ordination flowed from him, either the Antichrist (as wee affirme) and, consequentlie, beeing a Wolfe and Thiefe, could have no power of ordination: or then a lawfull Pastour holding truth: in which case, wee falling from his communion, have fallen from the truth, and all lawfull vocation also. against this (to shew howe, in that, which, in the pamphlet that came to my hands, was inscribed the invincible argument, there is no more vigour then in a roape of a rotten rushe) I laid down this contrary position. p. 12That our outward ordinarie callings did, in a sort, flow from the Bishop of Rome, without any discredit or derogation to the dignity or lawfulnes of them: notwithstanding that he is that verie Antichrist and man of sinne: and, so, not onelyonly a Wolfe and Thiefe, but even of al other the most execrable. The summe of that argument, whereby to inferre this my Position, and which, at large, I did set downe in my treatise, and the mentioned sections thereof, is this.

From a VVolfe or Thiefe, who, descending in an ordinary succession from good and lawfull Pastours at first, and who degenereth not at once, but by long and slow degrees, and, that, not, as an open outward enemy directly oppugning the ensigne, but, still, pretending Christ his power and service, and, covertly, by pretence of the ensigne, deceaving: before he be detected and knowen to be a Traitour, VVolfe, & Thiefe, and, so, retaining still, with all, in common, the account and place of a lawfull Pastour: lawfull ordination may flow: and the ordained by him, taking ordination vprightly as from a lawful Pastour & reputed so still, in common, not knowing nor beeing partakers of his treason, may even, so, have lawfull outward vocation: and, falling from their ordainer, eftsoones detected to bee a VVolfe and Thiefe, yet stil retain the prerogative of their callings.

But, such a Traitour, Wolfe, & Thiefe was the Bishop of Rome, what tyme our ordination, in a sort, did flow from him; before it was said to the revived witnesses, come vp hither, Revel. 11. & he proclaimed a Traitour 14.8. and al, thereupon, interdicted his worshippe, and character 14.9.

Therefore from the Bishop of Rome, our outward callings, in a sort, might flow: and, wee shrinking from him (now declaired Traitour) yet still retaine the prerogative and priviledge of our callings.

In the tenour and drift of this argument (that divers points & cases be not ignorantly or deceitfully confounded, either to the obscuring or perverting of my meaning) two things are, heedfully, to be eied, and the distinct considerations p. 13of them. First, my Positions: and, th…se distinctlie, als well the speciall and definit position which I take to proove, as the generall and indefinit which I bring for a mids or argument to inferre the other. And, secondly, the restrict cases of both. The speciall definit position, which I take to proove, is the conclusion of my sillogisme. The generall and indefinit, whereby I conclude it, is the Proposition thereof: the restrict case of my speciall and definit position is, that, I affirmed not our callings to have flowed from the Bishop of Rome, absolutly, but, in a sort. The restrict case of my generall and indefinit position, is, that I affirmed not lawfull ordination might be taken of a Wolfe or Thiefe, absolutly, but from such a Wolfe & Thiefe as in my Proposition is set downe at length, and in my treatise, more amply. Now, who either doth confound my positions, or draweth them frō my restrict cases to absolut assertions, he wrongeth me, therein, greatly. And to cleare this. In the restrict case of my speciall and definit position, that I affirmed our callings to have flowed frō the Bishop of Rome, in a sort, it hath two considerations to be wel adverted. First, that the Bishop of Rome was not the proper, particular, & personal minister of their ordination (at least in common) howsoever in a sort or mediatly, it did flow from him. Secondly, that even this in a sort or mediatly, must not be so vnderstood as if the particular, proper, and personall ordainers had done it but as the Bishop of Rome his deputies or procurators: but, as having also themselves properly place & power of ordination. Wherein, (by your adversaries doctrine) the Bishop of Rome might well have the first place and highest power: but, not the only place or onelyonly power. For, giving him this that he were, not only, primae sedis Episcopus (in which degree the Fathers would faine have stayed his vsurpation, and yet by canons of counsels, could not) but, (which was, then, interdicted) that he were also primus Episcopus: yet was hee never sole Bishop. And, though hee got at length, (by prevailing iniquity) cheefe place & power of ordination, yet never only place. For, if p. 14hee onelyonly were properly to bee held a Bishop, and, if ordination were only proper to him, then could not he him selfe be any Bishop at all. For none can be a Bishop without lawfull ordination: and none can or may ordaine him selfe. Neither can any other ordaine him by any power flowing from his predecessour, quia mort… mandatore expirat mandatum. And, as Grogorie Bishop of Rome doth inferre, if he were sole Bishop, then, vniversa Ecclesia corruit vbi ille vniversus cadit, (he falling, the vniversal church should faile also.) And, how hardly the said Grogory did esteeme of any such vsurpation, these words doe shew. Triste valde est patiēter ferre vt omnibus despectis, frater & coepiscopus noster solus nominetur Episcopus. (It is a heavy and hard matter to beare that our brother and fellow Bishop should be called onelyonly Bishop) and he giveth the reason in another place. Quia si vnus Patriarcha vniversalis dicitur, Patriarcharum nomen caeteris derogatur, for if one be called vniversal Patriarch, the name of Patriarch is taken from the rest) so, then, is ordination of all Churchmen flowing in a sort frō the Pope, to be vnderstood: not, that either hee was the personall minister of all, or that hee had sole power of ordination: but, because he was acknowledged first in that power: and, for that, in the outward order, policy, and forme of church governement, al did acknowledge their subiection to him. Now, for that ordination is graunted to flow from him in this sort, therefore, vponupon the conviction of him to be a Wolfe & Thiefe; shal al ordination in the church, particularly, properly, and personallie ministred by whatsoever other Bishops, be vnlawfull? Or, shal he (convinced to be a Thiefe and Traitour) necessarily involve al other pastours of the church in the same guiltines with him, because their ordinatiō hath, in a sort, flowed from him? This were indeed, to admit that, which even a Bishop of Rome counted an execrable absurdity, quod vniversa Ecclesia corruit vbi ille vniversus cadit. your man might have learned from his owne Bellarmin (by force of truth driven thereto at last) that, though the Pope should become an heretike, yet should not the church therefore fail, or fall from p. 15truth. We wil never yeeld him this, that at any time in the church, vniversally all and singularly each pastour, or ordainers of pastours were Wolves and Thieves, albeit wee affirme that he from whom al ordinatiō, in a sort, did flow, was, long agoe, a Wolfe and Thiefe. Now, then, I having, in the special and definit position of our callings flowing from the Bishop of Rome, put this restrict case, that they flowed from him in a sort: hee should greatly wrong me & sophistically also reason, who would make this all one thing, as if I had granted them to have flowed from him particularly, as the proper & personal minister thereof: or, from the Wolvish & Thievish condition of him frō whom they but flowed in a sort, would conclude of all and everie particular, proper, and personal ordainers: or if hee should reason from ordinatiō, as it floweth in a sort, to ordination properly and personally proceeding. My remarker might indeed have made me remarkeably forgetfull of my selfe & truth both, if in my answere to their first obiection (sect. 5.) not admitting them therfore, any iust claime in the title of the true church, for that we, forsooth, could have no orditnary vocation but with & amongst thē (who, howsoever they were in the church & even bore sway and obtained in tota communiter, yet were but a part in the church, and no true part of it: in that, alwayes, within the church also were true both pastours and professours) if now (I say) I should againe confesse that all our pastours ordination had flowed properly and personally from the detestable head of all that mischiefe. Which were not onelyonly a manifest lie but an absurde impossibilitie also. If any heere, would oppone, that this my distinction is vaine, and, that it freeth vsus nothing more to have had our ordination but in a sort from the Bishop of Rome, and properlie and personally from others, then if we graunted the having it of him even particularly, properly, & personally: because all others particular and personal ordainers whatsoever, were not onelyonly in outward order of Church governement subiect to the Pope of Rome: but also agreed all in one and the same faith p. 16and doctrine with him, approving both his opinion and power: and, moreover, had all of them, or their ordainers or the ordainers of their ordainers, &c. their ordination even properly and personally of the Bishop of Rome. In which respects, neither could the personall ordainers bee free of any imputation laid by vsus against the Bishop of Rome, neither yee ordination from them be any better to the ordained by them, then if it had properly and personally proceeded from him, as the particular Minister therof I answer that in this allegation, is a manifold sophistication. First, as I have already shewed, from common subiection in the obtaining state of Church policie, to conclude Vnitie in opinion and all points of faith: and, from the overruling Pope, or Metropolitan his corruption and guiltines, to conclude the same of al, who by the course of the time, and prevailing lawes of Church governement are, ordinarilie subiect to him, it is, even in common experience, ridiculous, and, albeit of all, in common, it might, perhaps, be said, yet never of vniversally each one: as, in my treatise, I have shewed at length, &, in my commentarie on the Revelation, more plainly. Secondly, he …ld thus conclude from toleration to approbation, most falsly. For many did tolerate the evils and vsurpation which they never approoved but even detested and lamented: as did the Church in Pergamus, dwelling even where Satan his throne was: and the Church of Thyatira, where Ie…abel vnderunder proud pretence of propheticall authoritie, impudently domined. Against which Churches, howsoever the Lord had some thing, for that their weaknes: yet, were they, no the lesse his true Churches: and, as taxed for toleration of the obtaining & proudly borne out evill amongst them: so on the other part even praised for keeping the name of God, and for increase of workes, even there, where Satan his throne was, and Fornication and Idolatrie craftilie and proudly set forwarde: which, yet, and the (first) subtill, and (nixt) proud and cruell vsurpation of the committers, teachers, and imposers therof, p. 17they had not the either knowledge or courage to challenge, directly, in the tyme. And, in these two Churches, the holy Ghost, in a depth of wisdome, and purposelie, setteth downe the type of the cōdition of his true church first and last in the mids of Antichrist his vsurpation, & all the tyme within his compas. Thirdly, in alledging that al having place & power of ordinatiō, or then their ordainers, or, at least, the ordainers of their ordainers, &c. have receaved ordination even personally and particularly from the Bishop of Rome: besydes that, for many ages after Christ no such vsurpatiō was knowen or had place in the Church: & that even after the first proud acclayming thereof many churches stood long out & refused the yoak: in reasoning even from the stare of the prevailing tyrāny since the time it tooke place, there is a double fallacy. First, in not distinguishing betwixt any one particular Bishop of Rome, and the Bishop of Rome in succession of seat. And, next confounding the different and much divers consideration of distinct times, and of an evill, in time, waxing, and by degrees, arrysing from not so intollerable beginnings at first, to the height, at last, of al detestable mischief and importable impiety. If any should affirme the personall and proper ordination of all ordainers, or, of their ordainers, or at least, of the ordainers of their ordainers, &c. of any one particular Bishop of Rome, hee were senseles. If, of, the seat: then the answere is easie: that none shall ever be able to shew it so possibly personall, in that sort, throw all the visible Church: but, that, in a succession of many Bishops, and these (singularly) almost all, of short aboade; and litle painfull in the personal actions of their calling, &, in the progres (as I have said) of a waxing evil: we may easely and clearely evince not onelyonly a probable but even a plaine possibility of preserving and reducing vpward lawfull ordination in the Church (at least in freedome from all personall contagion of that pestilent seat) to some more tolerable times & a lesse corrupted state of a church.

Thus have I cleared the speciall and definit position p. 18of our outward ordinarie callings flowing from the Bishop of Rome, and restrict case thereof. Which position, as it was the conclusion of my syllogisme, and al that I either affirmed or tooke to proove of them: so will I never grant the Bishop of Rome any furder interest in them. And, thus, the flowing of our vocation in a sort from him (even confessed to be and to have then bene the very Antichrist) derogateth so litle either to the dignity or lawfulnes of thē: as, though it were granted that not only not from him, but even from no Wolfe or Thiefe any proper or personall ordination might be lawfully receaved, yet our ordination, and flowing, in a sort, from the Bishop of Rome (the Antichrist) may bee well sustained to bee lawfull. Neither am I thus precise in the special case of our ordination, because I think my selfe so straited (in granting even personall and particularly ministred ordination by a Wolfe and Thiefe, in some case to bee lawfull) as that therefore I would narrowly seeke out this evasion: but, because it were foolishe prevarication to staine the honour of our vocation more then is necessarie, by yeelding any furder place therein to Antichrist his contagion, then the nature of the case and truth of story enforceth: for, as in the Church, alwayes, even in most miserable tymes, have beene some (albeit few) lawfull and true pastours, so, consequently, alwayes, some remnant also of lawfull ordination. And, I pray you, with or amongst whom could it possibly remaine; but these, who were, first, the Candelstikes and Olives (ministers of light and grace) while no possibilitie appeared of any: and, for applying the right rodde of examination whereby Citie and Court were found to bee cast out, were next cruellie murthered: and yet Thirdly, in vigour standing vp against Antichrist, were at last separated so from his contagion, as thencefoorth Babylon falleth, and they beare away the name of heaven, the true church? Now then, howsoever, in the special case of our ordinarie vocations, and in facto, (as Iuristes speak) I will yeeld no more then my position thereof beareth: p. 19yet, in jure, I have not forgotten what my generall and indefinit position speaketh: neither mynde I so to slyde from it. But, as I brought it for my argument, whereby as from the more to the lesse, to inferre my speciall position: so will I, now, come close to your man his hande: and although no necessitie of maintayning our callings cōstraine me thereto, yet, for cutting from him of all matter of cavillation, even graunt this also to be my position.

That from a Wolfe and Thiefe (such as my proposition proporteth) lawfull Ordination may bee even properlie and personallie taken as from the particular minister thereof. And, (to bee yet more indulgent to my Remarker then hee, perhaps, exspecteth) that, in that case, it might even so have beene taken from the Bishop of Rome also. Whereupon, if my Remarker marketh mee as holding that Ordination may bee lawfullie ministred by, or taken from a Wolfe or a Thiefe, absolutelie, hee hath taken his markes by the Moone, or then by his owne imaginations: whereto my wordes will never affoorde him any ground. For, besides all that, which the tenour of my Discourse, on that parte, did clearlie expose to anie not wilfullie wincking even over against his [REMARK] was put the restriction of a Wolfe, Retayning ordinarie place and power of Ordination. If there he had thought, that these two can not consist: to bee a Wolfe and a Thiefe, and yet to retayne place and power of ordination, from which, even thereby, hee doeth fall: yet, he might have remembred to distinguish betwixt a Thiefe without, and a Thiefe within. And againe, of inward Theeves, betwixt a Thiefe detected, notore, noted, and proclaimed to be a Thiefe, and a Thiefe still covered vnderunder false pretences, and, so, retayning with all in common the reputation, if not of a true or faithfull, yet of a lawfull Pastour. Hee should not separate my position from the restrict case thereof. For, as calling is double, outwarde, and inwarde, and, a man may have the inwarde calling (by a convenient measure of gifte, and a Divine motion to consecrate p. 20it to the giver) who hath not yet gotten outward ordination: and, againe, one may have outward lawfull calling, who, inwardly, hath none, but, by the contrarie, is even a Thiefe in his heart: so may an ordinary Pastour, being, or becōming a Traytour and Wolfe, fall, so from all inward vocation, and, yet retaine, still, outward place & power of ordination, because, albeit a Traitour & Thiefe, his treasō notwithstanding, is not yet detected: whither through his owne craftie cariage & deceitful pretences, still, of a lawful Pastour: or, through the simplicitie of these, who, receaving ordination of him, ar not skilled to discerne his treason, albeit even then deeply and pertly practised, Who, if they knewe it, and yet, would receave ordination of him: as they could not but, in that case, be Traitours also, and have no ordination at all: so, comming, in singlenes, to him, as to a lawfull Minister, and so accounted of all, in common, through the pretence of his Lord his ensigne and service: they may (that way) receave from him a lawfull ordination, the hidde or vnperceaved defect of the ordainer no more derogating to the lawfulnes of the ordination, then doeth the open and seene wickednes of a hyreling Minister impede the efficacie either of ordination or the Sacraments ministred by him, in the faithfull receaver. And, if the equitie of this be so evident, alwayes, as, even in the state of a Church holding purity, al in common, and, where, in that respect, the ordination of but one or fewe persons (who had beene thus ordained by an vnknowen, in the tyme, and, eftsoones detected Wolfe) might with lesse commotion or perill to the body of the Church, be annulled: albeit some men, in detestation of heresie, would vrge it, and, even the, so, ordained, also, (for the more clearing of themselves) should assent to the receaving of newe ordination: yet, if, even in such a case and condition of a Church, no necessitie could ever inforce it vponupon the conscience of any: howe much greater, yea and a divers consideration ought to be had, when the whole body of the Church, in common, being affected; p. 21ordination is, in common, stained through all? most part, in common, being Wolves and Thieves, albeit not, as yet, in common, reputed so. For, as Augustin, wisely both wayeth and adviseth, a much different course and cure is to be taken and vsed, in a common evil, which hath overgone the whole body: then when, in a well constitute body (in common) but one or few particular members are affected. And, hereof, Christ, the true both Maister and mirrour of all Wisdome, in his owne practise, gave a cleare lesson. The Scribes & Pharisees were, all, in common, Wolves and Thieves: if perverters of the true sense of the law, and corrupters of all true both word and worshippe, by mixture of their leaven: if persecuters and murtherers of Prophets and of the Lord himselfe: if, who had losed the key of knowledge, and neither themselves entred nor suffred others to enter in the Kingdome of Heaven: if destroyers of soules, making their Disciples, doubly, the children of the Gehenna, may be counted Wolves and Thieves, and, yet, in consideration of their ordinary place in the Church (totally, in common, as then, affected) and, the reputation which they retained, notwithstanding with all, in common, of lawfull Pastours …e Lord commandeth to heare and obey them, in the tyme so farre, as, sitting in Moses his chaire, …ey should teach accordingly. from whom, notwithstanding, as from Murtherers and destroyers, he had resolved to transferre his vineyard and house. And, is, I praye you, the baire receaving of outward ordination, from a man, of more importance, then is our totall submission to him, as to our Pastour, for the whole dispensation of grace to vsus in the word and Sacraments? and, if, in such a condition of a Church, wee not only may, but even are commanded to submit our selves so, as, in the tyme (till the Lord discover them and cast them out) we may take good of them, and eschew their evil, in the whole outward ordinary dispensation of graces may not ordination also, in such a case, be lawfull? And may it not be taken also without contagion of the ordayner p. 22his treasonable wickednes? and thus my generall position also standeth true, that, even from a Wolfe or Thiefe vndetected, and, so retaining still the account of a lawfull Pastour, and outward place and power of ordination, &c. lawfull outward ordination may properly and personally flowe. If your Elimas hath remarked me for more then this (I having ever, ioyned the restrict case so clearly) he hath wronged himselfe more then me for, if I had but put these wordes for all (seeing outward ordination serveth but for outwarde order) they might, with any honest hearted Reader, have freed me from all suspicion of so lourd an absurditie. For, what order can be imagined there, where knowne and advoued Haeretikes retaine any place or power in the Church? Nowe, Antichrist, in divers considerations is said to be hidde or covered: and, in divers considerations, to be revealed and detected. First, albeit hee was in the world (as in the seed and first beginnings of his hatching, while the mysterie of iniquitie was covertly begunne to worke) yet he was hidde and covered while light and the truth of the Gospell so prevailed, in common, as, errour was borne downe, and he did not aryse to any sensible height. And …cordingly, he is said to be revealed, when, through prevailing darknes of the bottomles pitte, he obtained a throne even in the Temple of God. And, even thus, againe (albeit, in a sort revealed) yet he is hidde and covered, so long, as, by his effectuall deceit and pretence of the Lambe his hornes (men not adverting the Dragon his mouth, or made yet wyse to count the number of his name) all, in common, doe still followe him, and wonder after him. and to bee revealed, againe, but that in two degrees (requiring a distinct and wyse consideration, and, which, most plainlie, in his story, are delivered by the spirit,) First, when, by the reviving light of the Gospell, men were brought to see great pollution both in manners and worshippe, and most part flowing from that execrable seat: wherevpon they were moved to detest, and even grievouslie to complaine of the obtaining p. 23evils, and corruption of that seate in speciall. And, yet, this was so, as, his great place and proud pretence of Propheticall authoritie dazeled their weake eyes, in common, from perceaving him clearly to bee, as a corrupt Bishop, so even the adversarie also and Antichrist and, therefore, scarce daring, yet to challenge him so, or to resolve separation from him: they vrged, only, and instantly, reformation of worshippe and manners, in simplicitie (poore honest soules) yet thinking, or not altogither dispairing, but, that the pard could leave his spotts, and the Thiefe and Traitour would reforme: and not yet fully resolved that Babylon could not bee cured. And in this degree, (while not only the Churche in Pergamus, but even in Thyatira, albeit waxing in good workes, yet tollerateth: yea even while that first of the three Angels fleeth and preacheth through the middes of heaven, Revelar. Chapter fourtheene, verse 8.) yet is hee not fully detected. But, when his impatiencie of any cure, and bloodie crueltie in murthering the Saintes (whereby the, earst, spotted Pard becommeth whollie of the Dragon his collour, and, where, firste, but the heade, nowe the whole bodie is full of the names of blasphemie) stirre men not onelyonly to applie the rodde of examination, (whereby to trie, if, possiblie, so bloodie and blasphemous a bodie could bee the true Churche of God) but also, that, thereby, Cittie and Courte are clearelie, founde to bee cast out, when the revived Witnesses are called vp and visiblie separated from his contagious fellowshippe: when the seconde Angell Revelat. Chapter 14. plainlie denounceth Babylons fall, so, proclayming the Traitour: then was hee fullie revealed to bee a Thiefe and Wolfe, and, from that time foorth, no lawefull Ordination could either bee given by him or taken from him. As, thereupon, convenientlie, the thirde Angell Revelat. Chapter 14. verse 9. warneth, and, that, sadly, that none receave his marke. p. 24To reason, then, from Antichrist in the first degrees of the mysterie of iniquitie working towardes a height, to Antichrist inthroned in the Temple: or, from Antichrist sitting, and, by effectuall deceit obtaining in the Temple, to Antichrist revealed: or, from the first degree of detection, to him, now, publiklie, proclaimed a Traitour, and the true church separated frō his fellowship: or from ordination, flowing from him in the one case, to ordinatiō flowing from him on the other: it is deceaving, and yet but grosse sophistication. Now, if even thus, and, in the sense, which I have cleared to bee mine, your man yet hath remarked my position to bee erroneous. And, if hee holdeth that from no Wolfe or Thiefe of whatsoever qualitie or condition any lawfull ordination could ever properly & personally be taken. Then you may tel my remarker, from me, that hee hath remarked that for an errour, which is so evident and stable a truth, as all, any where bearing the Beast his marke, shall never bee able to overthrow it. Though it should never so much grieve him, that thereby, his invincible argument is so vtterly overthrowen, as it, shall never any more find one foot to stand on.

What your man his (REMARK) doth point at in this part of my words: [And he who receaveth outward ordination is not sworne or tyed to the will or appetit of his ordainer, more then any minister baptizeth in his owne name, &c.] For these wordes he draweth also, I could hardly, coniecture. To shew that the forsaking of the obedience, and deserting the fellowshippe of ones ordainer (tryed a Traitour) taketh not away the deserters ordination: I vsed this argument. That, in our ordination, wee are consecrated, not to men, but to God. And to proove this, I brought the Apostel his reason of the common condition of all Christians. Whom, as Christ hath redeemed with his owne blood, and vindicated to the liberty of the Sonnes of God, so, hath he thereby exemed them, in their spirituall state, from being servants to men. For we have but one Lord: and, we are, no more Paul his, nor Apollo his, nor Cepha his, but Christ his. p. 25And accordingly, with the Apostle, I brought the vse and priviledge of our baptisme, the sacrament of our initation and entrie to that libertie in Christ: in whom only we are baptized, and, to whom only we are thereby consecrated, & not to men. according to which cōmon and cōstant libertie of al Christians by baptisme, I did argue, that, so, in our ordination to any publike office in the church, we are consecrated to Christ and not to men: to be his servants, & not the servants of men. Otherwayes, our ordin'atiō should destroy the libertie of our baptisme: being baptized, first to Christ, & being ordained, next to men. and so shuld Christ be robbed of his inheritance, so dearly purchased, & we of our liberty also. Wherevpon, it doth clearly follow, that in deserting the minister of my ordination (beeing found a wolfe) and, so, cleaving stil to Christ, whose I am, I do not fal away from the prerogative of my calling. For, who did separat vsus, Christ or the Pope? and to whose service were we separat, Christ his or the Popes? were we baptized the children of God; to be thereafter, ordained servants of the Pope? what doth your Elymas remarke here? or, because I but touched the argume't, in a word, thinking it enough in so plain a matter, to point at the place, hath therfore, a Doctour of divinitie, mistaken my meaning; whereof no sensible christian could misse the perceptiō? Or, doth this perhaps offend him; that, where in ordination, subiection was professed & sworn to the Pope: yet I make the ordained to be no more sworn to the wil or appetit of the ordainer, thē any minister baptizeth in his owne name? But, I was not cōparing the rituall action or outward forme of baptisme with that of ordination. But (with the Apostle) frō the liberty obtained & sealed vp to vsus in baptisme, pleading the same in ordination also: the outward ministerie whereof maketh me no more servant to him who is minister thereof to me, then I was baptized in the name of the minister, but of the Lord. next, it is childish fallacie to reason frō the oath of subiection given to our ordainers in the matter of outward policy & governemēt, & for keeping decēt order p. 26in the house of God: to our spirituall servitude and subiection of our consciences to the will and appetite of men. I let goe, that it is a fallacie also to reason from the ordinarie and subiection to him, to the minister of our ordinatiō, who is not alwayes the ordained his ordinarie. In our reformed Churches, we give our oath of subiectiō to our ordinaries: for, wee know that the house of God is not the house of cōfusion, but of order: and that the spirits of Prophets, are subiect to Prophets. but, doth this mancipate either vsus or our ministrie to their will or appetit? Thirdlie, I would aske, if your mā thinketh it all one thing to swear subiection to the Pope; and to be sworne or tied to his wil and appetit? I aske fourthly, if that oath of subiectiō to the Pope was essentiall to lawfull ordination; or, but accessorie? if essentiall, then for many hundreths of yeres in al the Church, almost, there was no lawfull ordination. yea, and the Pope him selfe could have no lawful ordination who can not, neither doeth sweare subiection to him selfe. and, if it be not essentiall, but accessorie, then may both ordination consist without it, & the loosing of it annulleth not the substance of ordinatiō, and the man, who holdeth ordination to be a sacrament (whose common nature is to have relation to the graces of God only, sealed vp or conferred to vsus therby: and to serve for notes of our profession of these dueties we owe againe immediatly to God) he should know this also, that by making any oath, in ordination, given to man, to be an essentiall part thereof, hee maketh that man to be God, and that to bee his sacrament & not the Lord his. finallie, I demand whither the oath be given, first, properlie, and principally, to the Pope: or, first, properly, and principally, to Christ? And, whither it be given to the Pope, absolutly, or but in Christ, as to his vicar and minister? If first, properly, and principally, to Christ, & to Christ only, absolutlie: and to the Pope but secundarilie, and in Christ (as I hope none dare deny: except they would, in plain termes, avouch this Pope to be that adversarie exalting himself as God above al that is called God, p. 27or worshipped) thē, I aske, whither finding the Pope to be not Christ his vicar, but the vicar of Satan his throne; king of locusts, and head of apostasie, & thervpon, falling from him; if I have broken any oath given in my ordination? or, if my renūcing of his obedience (found a traitour) looseth my oath first, properly, principally, and absolutly made to Christ? or, if it annichilateth my cōsecration to his service only, in my ordination first & properly frō him, and only to him? whither we do iustly charge the Pope to be Antichrist or not, it is not here the question, but whither he being Antichrist by our doctrine, and wee therevpon deserting him to whose subiection we were sworne: if that annulleth our ordination.

I have bene the larger in this matter remarked by your man perceaving his chiefe endeavour bended against me there. whither he hath esteemed me, in that part, weakest: or if he hath felt himself assailed, there in the foūdation of his strength: the peril of his invincible argumēt pricking him. for, except vponupon the 6.7. & 8. sections of my treatise, he neither vttereth any word, nor giveth any other signification of his meaning throw al, but that vponupon the 28. section, he setteth this signe ?. & that so sensibly as any may well perceave he was careful it should be seene, for shewing therewith my defect also signed thereby: & accordinglie I stirred my owne minde to find out what so notable a slippe that could bee, which hee had so singularly noted. But in my dulnes could see nothing, except that there perhaps he thought some occasion might be catched to calumniat, or that there, was ministred to him some matter of mirding. Which sort of wares, these men, in dealing with vsus, are accustomed to give vsus in steed of solide demonstrations. My wordes to which his signe looketh, are these: for myne owne part, as in all sobernes and cleannes of heart, by the gift of GOD I have bene carefull to know the truth. So, was I never much curious to inquire of the particular state of our first mens callings. VVhichWhich, whither it were ordinarie or extraordinarie, and that wholly or partly, in some men or in all: as it mattereth p. 28litle or nothing (in so great and extraordinarie a work wrought by their ministries as is the discovery & conviction of Antichrist sitting masked in the temple) so is the disputation there about but idle and childish, &c. If vponupon my assertion here (in the case so clearly put in my wordes) that disputation about calling is idle & childish: he would build vp this calumnie, that, absolutelie I misregard all respect of calling, and count absolutlie al disputation thereabout, idle & childish: he bewrayeth what spirit he is of: and, both my words here, and the whole tenour of my treatise wil answer for me. If he would skoffe, perhaps, at this: that confessing my self never to have bene much curious to inquire of the particular state of our first mens callings, &c. I shuld yet vndertake the defēce of that which I cōfesse I know not. he sheweth him self, forsooth, to be a solide & serious disputer: who out of 29. sections of my book hath pyoked out this great point against me. But, doth it follow, because I was not much curious to enquire that therfore I do not know the? do mē never know ought, but which they thinke of such momēt as meriteth to be curiously inquired? because I esteemed it no material point, can I not therfore know it? doth it follow, that I have not sought to know it for other respects? Our adversaries vanitie and perversenes make vsus to seeke and know divers things: which for any fruit in them, otherways, we would never paine our selfs: but that for stopping their mouthes, and informing the simple against their deceit, we are forced, though with small delight, yet to digge in the dūghils of their durtie devises: so to make the stink of thē knowen. because I have never bin much curious to know the particular state of our first mens callings; can I not therefore, possibly, know the cōmon case? or, can no man be able to defend our first mens callings, in cōmon, but he who hath curiously inquired, by whom, where, and in what particular forme every one singularly was ordained? it becōmeth one professing Divinitie, conscientiouslie and gravelie to conferre for edification; & not, for seducing simple soules, either sophistically, to disput, or childishly, to dally, to his owne disgrace. What is this to the matter in hande; that, p. 29forsooth, I am ignorant of our first mens callings? Or what advantage hath he even in the confession of my ignorāce? If, how litle soever my care or curiositie hath ben to know that matter: yet, in this my careles ignorance, I have said so much for our callings: as (howsoever they would appeare to vilipend it) may make them not only carefull and curious, but even perplexedly anxious also for their owne credit: who alwayes, & everie where, vantingly & vainly gloried, that we were all mad dumbe in the matter of our callings. And albeit I know, that, according to their manner, they will make no end of boasting and altercation: (wherein, I mind not, by the grace of God, to be so badly busied, as to keep a part with them) yet I may boldly affirme: barke, as it as they please, that yet they shall never be able to bring downe or, by sound and solide reason to shake any one ground laid down in that treatise. Wherein I have shewed the bow of our callings so doubly & strong stringed with two stringes: as either of which they shall never be able to cut with all their cunning.

I could have, perhaps, coniectured (as I know somwhat the manner and meaninges of these men) what surder hee would particularly have said by his other draughts which he hath drawn frequently and only on the 7. & 8. sections. but having cleared the maine point, I will not dally impertinently with him; or struggle with mine own shadow. as even of this, I have here done, he may perhaps say: and you, even therfore, esteeme it true. but, I am sure, I have either mett with his minde; or then hee shall not bee able to render any other such reason of his challenge, which shall not bee found as little, or lesse to his credit. And when ever his dumb draughts are made speaking lines, vppon the little I have lookt in them, I dare give my worde, that they shall bewray weaknes of sense, defect of sinceritie, or fraudulent shifting of the questiō. Now, as my treatise was written, but for information of modest minds and neither for any who will not be cured, neither yet to moove or to maintain iangling with any (an exercise both fruitles & evill beseeming Christians) so, now, for ought p. 30your man could either have said or signed I would not have interchanged one lyne with him. I know what is the efficacie of errour, and bewitching force of the cuppe of forniation in refractary seducers. I know that not onelyonly the blind leaders of the blind, but even such as are joyned to their Idoles are to be let alone. And that such as would appeare to aske counsell of a Prophet, having set vp their Idols in their hearts, & having put the stumbling bloke of their iniquity before their eies: the Lord wil evē, in iustice answer thē according to the multitude of their Idols. But these pages ar to you: in remēbrāce of my offer once made you: if I should find any assurance of a syncere disposition, in al singlenes, & laying a syde preiudice, that you wou…d vprightly heare and learne: and, with an vnpartial heart, try & ponder both parts: giving vsus the one eare and alike attension: with such other signes of indifferent affectiō, as might assure vsus of halfe barr and aequall bench in the seat of your iudgement: and so much the more, as you have these yeeres past given vsus evidences of a heart quite alienated from vsus, and, as wee plead, from the truth also. And, albeit, as yet, we have gotten of you small or no tokens of any such intention: yet, I would not leave you this to say, that I had failed you promise at the first as neither (if I can yet see your mynd sincerely, carefully, and humbly set for resolution) wil I in this sort, or any other kynd of paines, wearie to doe you pleasure according to my power, in Christ. But, if either you, or any other lust to be contentious, wee have no such manner, neither the Church of God. Now, God even the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ, according to his good pleasure & aboūdantly ritch grace, graunt vsus that our love may more and more abound in knowledge and all spirituall sense, whereby we may bee able to discerne things that differ: and, prooving all, to hold that which is good: that wee may bee syncere, and without offence till the day of Christ.

Yours in Christ P. FORBES, of Coirse.