Transubstantiation Exploded, Part 1 · Paragraph 4
PAR. 4.
The issue of divers disputations in France, and how the Romanists have had alwaies the worst in conferences with Protestants.
VPonUpon the sad newes of the death of Henry the fourth, whom Ravaliach ran into the side with a stiletto in Paris, neere the Church of Saint Innocents, right over against the house, whose signe was the flever de lies his owne armes: Sir Thomas Edmonds being sent with all speede into France to be liedger Embassadour for his Majesty of Great Brittaine, left order with D. King then Vicechancellor of Oxford (afterwards Lord Bishop of London) to provide him a Chaplaine; who with much importunity drew me greene from the Universiry, after my first solemne aThe rehearsall Sermon, Anno 16…0.exercise in Saint Maries, to this employment in France. Where I was no sooner arrived, but I heard of divers English Priests resident there, who not onelyonly set upon our English Gentlemen that travelled into those parts, and fixed some of them in the wrong, who before were unsetled in the right: but put the Embassadours Chaplaines also oftentimes to some trouble. These were D. Stanhurst, D. Wright, D. Bagshau, D. Stevens, D. Smith the elder, D. Champney, M. Reyner, M. Meridith, and others, with whom I declined all manner of contestation in point of Religion for a great while, not upon any distrust of the cause, neither any feare lest they should gaine upon the truth, or unsettle me or any other in any ground of our most Orthodoxe beliefe. For blessed be God, as in former times, so in our age we see the promise of our Saviour daily fulfilled in divers of the reformed Religion, who have beene bSee Acts and Monuments of the Church. Cri…pin in Mar…rolog. Histoire Des Vaud.convented before your Inquisitours, cLuke … 15.I will give you a mouth and wisedome which all your adversaries shall not be able to gaine-say nor resist. And as o… of the mouth of women and dMat. 21. 16. Psal. 8. 2.childre… hee hath perfected praise, so in publi… disputations betweene the learned Doctors on both sides, hee hath ev… eMat. 12. 20.brought forth judgement on our si… unto victory. Witnesse the solem… disputation in the Synod of Basil betweene the fOrthwinus Gratius in fascic rer. expetend. & sug.Huzzites and your Prelats and Doctors, in the yeare of o… Lord, 1438. Wherein Iohannes Rok… zanus the Taborite, and Petrus P… mus our Countrey man, so worth… acquitted themselves in the defer… of the Bohemian Articles, that they r… gained from that Synod the free use… the holy cup in the Sacrament for t… Laity. Witnesse the disputation betweene Martin Luther, and Eckius … at Lipsia by the Appointment of Du… George of Saxonie, Anno 15…9. … which I may say as the Oratour speaketh of gCic: orat…r Marcelli pugna ad Nolam populus Romanus primò se erexit postea multae res prosperae cosecutae sunt.Marcellus his battell wit… Hanniball at Nola, it gave the first li… to the reformed partie in Germany, an… after it the affaires of religion went … most prosperously. Witnesse the disputation at Zurick, appointed by the Bishop of Constance, betweene Faber S…apulensis, and Zuinglius, Anno 1523. at which the Champion for the Romish partie was so daunted, that after a flourish, he said in that great assemblie, that the cognition and determination of differences in religion pertained to a generall councell which was neare at hand, and that he would confute the doctrine of his adversary by writing, dispute he would no longer: the issue was the Senate of Zuricke presently proclaimed reformation. Witnesse the disputation a… Baden, Anno 1525. betweene Oecolampadius and Eckius, where Eckius sate downe by the losse, and the Church gained all the reformed Pagi of Helvetia. Witnesse the disputation at Berne in Anno 1527. betweene Conradus Treyerus an Augustin Frier, and Martin Bucer. This disputation held 19. daies, the issue whereof was a pillar erected by the Senate at Berne: in which they wrote in golden letters the day and yeare of their reformation. To come neerer home; Witnesse the disputation begun a… Westminster by the commandement of Queene hHumfred in vit… Iewel. …ox Acts & Monumēts. Tom. 3. p. …Elizabeth, Anno 1559. betweene D. Story Bishop of Chichester, D. Cocks, M. Whitehead, M. Grindol, M. Horne, D. Sands, M. Gest, M. Elmer, M. Iewel on the one side for the Protestants, and the Bishops of Winchester, Litchfield, Chester, Carlile, Lincolne, D. Cole, D. Harpsfield, D. Langdale, D. Chedsey on the other side, in which after the Protestants had given the charge, the Popish party presently sounded a retreat, and upon frivolous pretences brake up the conference, witnesse the Epistle of iGerson Archiepisc. Prag: ne que rursus in disputādo apud tales, &c. ullus unquā … fini…; scā dalizabitur populus denique talis protervitas incidit in illud poetae aegrescit que medendo l. de punit: haere…. non est publicè disputandum cum …aeretico praese…tim pertinaci. Sunt enim haeretici in disputando disertissimi & sciunt optimè disput ationum retia tendere. Huiu… rei exemplum nobis praeluit publica disputati… cum Luthero Litsia habita.Gerson to the Arch-Bishop of Prague, in which hee disswadeth him from putting the matter of Religion to a Triall in disputation, because by such a course taken with the Huzzites, the noble forerunners of our protestant faith, the people would be scandalized, and the wound given already to the Church, would be made worse by the cure. And lastly, witnesse the determination of k Alfonsus a Castro, we ought not saith he publikely to dispute with an hereticke, especially if he be pertinacious, for heretikes are most nimble in disputation, and very skilfull to spread nets of arguments, as we have an example in the publike disputation with Luther at Lipsia.
I had no reason therefore to doubt our arguments or cause which like P…rtas Caesare… & fortunam …. Eras. Apoth.Caesar hath ever beene victorious. Yet partly because I had not as then spent so much time in the studie of controversies, as I thought requisite for him who was to encounter with veterani milites, old souldiers of the Popes traine band: partly because I knew whatsoever my performance might be, the major part of the spectators addicted to the Romish partie, would doe me no right in the relation; I carefully avoided all conflicts with them, till by a wile I was drawne into the lists with Christopher Bagshan D. D. sometimes fellow of Baily Colledge in Oxford, and afterwards Principall of Gloster-Hall. This D. I met at M. Alexanders a Scottish Papist his house at a dinner, to which my Lord Embassadours Secretary, M. Woodford and my selfe were invited. At the last service, M. Alexander blew the coale, and D. Bagshan presently tooke fire: and immediately after dinner we fell … it with great vehemency for man… houres. What this conference wroug… with others there present, I cannot say but sure I am, it left many scruples … M. Alexanders minde. From that ho… he began to question the Romish Religion in which hee was borne and bre… and divers times after he repaired to m… to instruct him more fully in the doctrine of the reformed Churches, a… when he lay upon his death bed, he ea… nestly desired those about him to se… for me with all speed: but they bei… zealous in the Romish Religion, a… conceiving that my conference wi… him would set him further of from t… same, fulfilled not his last desire, but in stead of me, brought to him a Popis… Priest, who finding him drawing on … his end, offered to administer to hi… their Sacrament of extreame unction which he refused to receive from him This a servant of his with weeping eyes after his buriall related at my Lord Embassadours house. My nex… conflict was with D. Stevens, occasioned by an English Gentlewoman, wh… falling into want, and being relieve… … his meanes, was easily drawne by …m to heare their Lent Sermons; and at Easter, the Papists who had contributed to her necessities, made full account that then she would communicate with them, and renounce our Church. But that she might not be thought to be drawne to them for temporall respects, and that D. Stevens might have the honour to win her from us by disputation, he and she both by themselves and their friends, importuned me to give them a meeting at M. Porie his Chamber in the Fauxburg of Saint Germaines. I fought at the first what I could to put it off, because I had an inckling that this conference was sought for, onelyonly to give some colour to her intended revolt from us: yet being deepely adjured by her, as I tendered the good of a soule bought with Christs blood, and being directly challenged in the end by D. Stevens, I met at the time and place appointed. Where the Doctor made an eloquent speech, imbroidered with all variety of learning, wherewith many there present were much taken, but when he came to dispute, and was tied to propound his arguments in a syllogisticall forme, and so propounding the… received some unexpected answers, … quite lost himselfe, being derided … some, and pittied by others in reg… of his great age. At the next meeti… which was farre more solemne, … Lord Clifford and divers other perso… of great quality being present, D. S… vens gave way to D. Bagshau to disp… for him; who first answered, and af… opposed in the question by the audit… proposed, and by us stated; the sum… of which disputation was taken … M. Arscot and M. Ashley there prese… and by M. M. P. sent over to his Gr… See the relation thereof in the end of this Treatise.of Canterbury. The Gentlewo… after these conferences gave lesse ho… to the Papists then before, whereup… their charity waxing cold towards h… the next newes I heard of her was t… she was cast in prison for debt, wh… I visiting her, found her constant in … truth, and firmely resolved by Go… grace never to enthrall her soule to R… mish Idolatry and superstition, to … deeme her body from that miserab… captivity, being committed to a clo… and nastie prison in a strange Count… among those that hated her with a pe… f…ct hatred for the constant love she… …re to the truth.