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The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net · Daniel Featley

The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net, Analysis of answer

A Table of the principall matters contained in M. FISHER'S ANSWER.

MAster Fisher, before you embarked your selfe into the maine businesse, to answer the three Chapters of the Protestant Relation, I expected, that, for the better direction of the Reader, you would hauehave some way analyzed your prolix Answer, and set before him a Synopsis, or Table of the specialties comprised is this your Treatise: which thing, because you hauehave omitted, I will doe you the courtesie to performe it for you.

The principall matters conteyned in the Answer, may be reduced to fiue heads:

1. foreign, or Vntruths.

2. foreign, or Contradictions.

3. foreign, or Idle obseruations and exceptions.

4. foreign, or Impertinences, or mal'd proposes.

5. foreign, or Vain repetitions.

Of the first Head, foreign or Vntruths, reade Title-page; An Answer written by A. C. VNTRVTH: for, M. Fisher is knowne to bee the Author of it.

Preface, Page 2. D. Featly, who is said to bee the Author, hath confessed, that more is said in the Relation, then was said in the Conference it self. Vntruth: for, D. Featly was neuer questioned about that Relation, nor said hee any such thing.

Page 15. Then D. Featly, beginning to argue in this place, and not in the end of the Disputation, where the Protestant Relator placeth it, did say, I wish … I warne, I command, I coniure you to answer truely …d sincerely in the sight of God, and as you will answer it at the day of Iudgement. A double Vntruth. First, the words, I warne, I command, were neuer spoken by me. Secondly, those words, As you will answer it at the day of Iudgement, were spoken in the end of the Disputation, and not in the beginning, where you place it. See the Attestation to the Conference. In the same page, M. Sweet propounded these conditions to bee obserued; First, that all bitter speeches should be forborne. Secondly, that … thing should bee spoken or heard, but to the purpose. Vntruth. The second condition was neuer propounded by M. Sweet; which I thus prooue. Both Relations agree, that M. Sweet propounded but two conditions in all; likewise both agree, that the first condition was, That all bitter speeches should bee auoyded. There remaines then but one condition. But all the witnesses, who hauehave subscribed to the Conference, doe, vponupon their certaine knowledge, remember, that M. Sweet propounded such a condition; that None but Disputants should speak. And therefore this second condition added by M. Fisher, that nothing should be spoken or heard, but to the purpose, is feigned and supposititious.

Page 16. M. Sweet did not say, as the Relator reporteth; They are Scholasticall points, not fundamentall: neither was there any such Syllogisme then made, as the Relator annexeth. Double Vntruth. Wee hauehave as many witnesses, both of that Answer of M. Sweet, and D. Whites Syllogisme, made by way of Reply, as there are words in both. In the same page: In the meane while, name but one Father, one writter of note, who held the particulars aboue-named, for 500 yeeres after Christ. To which instant demand of D. Featly (saith the Relator) nothing was answered: but neither was this said, neither was it needfull to answer. Vntruth: for, the witnesses to the Conference, perfectly remember, & directly affirme, that it was said. Besides, this I spake out of my paper, which I hauehave yet to shew: and no one thing more mooued M. Bugges, and some other in the Conference, then this, that for all the Iesuites laying claime to all Ages, & boasting, that all the world was of the Popish Religion before Luther, yet M. Fisher could not name so much as one man in the world, who for 500 yeers after Christ, held the Tridentine faith ingenerall, or those points of Popery, mentioned in the Conference, in speciall; neither doth hee yet name one in his printed Answer. Nay, hee dares not so much as name the points, for feare of giuing scandall to his owne side.

Page 20. These formall words which he reporteth M. Fisher to hauehave said, viz. A proofe à postetiori, is more demonstratiue, then à priori, M. Fishér did not speake. Vntruth: For, first the witnesses to the Conference remember perfectly, that he said so. Secondly, M. Alesburie, the Writer of the Conference, set downe these formall words, which are yet to be seene in the sealed Schedule. Thirdly, M. Alesburie immediately replyed vponupon M. Fishers words, Heere M. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning, in preferring a demonstration à posteriori, before that which proceedeth à priori. These words of M. Alesburie are set downe in the Protestants Relation of the Conference, and M. Fisher doth not deny them: and therefore he cannot deny those words which were the immediate occasion of that Reply.

Page 31. But D. Featly did not say all this. Vntruth: for, immediately vponupon those words of mine, that the Inference of the effect by the cause, was not transitio à genere in genus, &c. D. Goad interposed, saying; M. Sweet, You ones learned better Logick in Cambridge, then you shew now. These words of D. Goad, set downe in the Protestants Relation, M. Fisher heere denieth not: and therefore hee cannot reasonably deny the former words of mine which occasioned them. Remember, M. Fisher, better your lesson; Mandecem oportet, &c.

Page 32. But D. White did not speak thus; neither did he, in all the conference, make any such long discourse. Vntruth: for, first, D. White was appointed, in the beginning of the Conference, for the last houre and half to answer M. Fisher in the contrary Question, for the Visibility of the Roman Church. The first houre and half was already spent: and therefore D. White had iust occasion and reason to call vponupon M. Fisher as hee did, to prooue the Visibility of the Romane Church: And as for the six points mentioned in the Conference, they were the same which D. White shewed Sir Humfrey Linde and mee before the Conference, and told vsus, that he would put M. Fisher vponupon the proofe of them. Secondly, those of the Auditors which sate and stood next about D. White, testifie vponupon their perfect remembrance, that he called vponupon M. Fisher to oppose, and propounded those six points vntounto him, set downe in the Conference. In which, because M. Fisher found himself vnable to deal with Doctor White, therefore he makes bold to borrow a point of Iesuiticall honesty; Fairly to deny, that any such points were proposed.

Page 35. M. Fisher solemnly protested vponupon his conscience, that wittingly and willingly hee did neuer wrong either D. White, or D. Featly, in report of any conference. To this, nothing was replied: and therefore I suppose, that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fisher's sincerity in his relation. Vntruth: for, D. Goad immediately replied, that what M. Fisher wrote, was for his owne aduantage: and therefore he could not but suspect, that he did it wittingly and willingly. See the Attestation to the Conference.

Page 37. D. Featly, turning to M. Fisher, said, Will you dispute vponupon Christ and his Apostles, or not? To which M. Fisher said, I will, if you will stay: and, stretching out his hand, he took D. Featly by his arme offering to stay him; yet he (D. Featly) in that abrupt manner went away. Vntruth. So many words, almost so many vntruthes; and, God be thanked, there are witnesses enow to conuince the Counter-relator of a fignall and transcendent leasing in this last passage. See the Attestation.

I might furnish this Head and common place of M. Fisher, with many more instances; but these may suffice, to prooue, that M. Fisher deemeth himself one of those that hauehave past Thyle; who, if we may beleeue*Ep. 148. Conceditur ijs qui Thylem transierunt, foreign. Synesius, may lie by authority, and without controule.

Of the second Head, foreign, or Contradiction, reade

Page 14. Hee alleageth my words thus: Although this Question be grounded vponupon vncertain and false Supposals: For, a Church may hauehave been visible, yet not the Names of all visible Professors thereof now to be shewed, &c. And again, page 32. Are all visible Names vponupon Record? Are all Records in former times now to bee produced? And again in the same page, M. Sweet, calling for Names of Protestants, well might say, If Protestants had been in all Ages, their Names in eueryevery Age might bee produced: vntounto which, as the Protestant Relator saith (and the Counter-Relator denieth not), D. Featly replied, saying, This is a non sequitur. And page 19. he propoundeth my Argument thus: That Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue (not we), shall be so visible, that the Names thereof may be shewed in all Ages. But the Protestant Church holdeth this faith:*See the Protestant Relation of the Conference, page 21. line 23. Ergo. And again in repeating the like argument, That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith, once giuen to the Saints, is so visible, that the Names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages. To this Maior Proposition I added, page 21. The Maior is ex concessis: neither doth the Counter-Relator deny, that these words were added. Yet page 49. M. Fisher, in his Letter to the Earle of Warwick, saith, They are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook, as they stand more engaged than before; hauing now professed and acknowledged, that the true Church, or (to vse their owne words) the Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee, is able to name Professors in all Ages.

CONTRADICTION.

Doctor Featly professeth & acknowledgeth, Contradiction the first.that The true Church ought to be so visible, as that it is able to name professors in all ages.

Doctor Featly holdeth not, that The true Church ought to be so visible, &c. but disputed ad hominem, and ex concessis aduersarij, not according to his owne iudgement.

Page 32. M. Fisher had no reason to diuert to particular matters, in regard it was his Aduersaries fault, to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes. And page 48. Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proof to hauehave consisted in this, that The true Church ought alwaies to be so visible, as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named. But the Protestants was the true Church. We refused to dispute of the Minor, because it transferred the Question. And in many other places, he cals my Argument, from the truth of faith to the Visibility of the Church, A diuersiue Proof. And page 34. Dilatory and i… pertinent Syllogisms. Yet Page 23. he saith, In asking which is the true visible Church, wee ask, at least vertually, which is the true faith, in regard the true visible Church cannot bee without the true faith: yes therefore doo we ask which is the true Church, that of it we may learn what is the true faith. And page 69. line 14. That the right order of things requireth, th… first it onelyonly be disputed, to whom the faith belongeth: which is all one (say you) as if he should say, Which is the true visible Church?

CONTRADICTION.

In the Question touching the Visibility of the true Church, it is impertinent, and a diuersion, to dispute of the true faith.

In the Question of the visibility of the true Church,Contradiction the sec… it is not impertinent nor a diuersion, to dispute of the true faith; because the Question of the true faith is, vertually at least, included in the Question of the true Church.

Page 37. Doctor Featly in his rising, turned to Master Fisher, saying, Will you dispute vponupon Christ and his Apostles, or no? To which Master Fisher said, I will, if you will stay; And in the same page, Master Fisher did not prohibit him (Doctor Featly) to begin with the names of Christ and his Apostles. And againe: M. Fisher expressed his yeelding to dispute about Christ and his Apostles two seuerall times; once thus: I will dispute of them in due place. Another time thus: I wil, if you wil stay. Yet Pag. 64. he writeth thus, M. Fisher and M. Sweet still kept the Aduersary to the point, and would not permit him to diuert, either to dispute about Christ and his Apostles, or any other point, vntill names were giuen in all ages; The which course they tooke vponupon iust and good reason. And Pag 65. hee alleadgeth two reasons for it. See them there. And Page 71. M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him (D. Featly) out of Scripture, of Christ and his Apostles, vntill he had made his full induction of names.

CONTRADICTION.

Master Fisher permitted Doctor Featly to dispute about Christ and his Apostles.…

Master Fisher permitted not Doctor Featly to dispute about Christ and his Apostles.

Master Fisher expresly yeelded, that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles.

Master Fisher yeelded not that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles,Contradiction the fourth. nor dispute about them, nor any other point, vntill names were giuen in all ages.

A curious eye might easily discerne many more contradictions in this Answer of Master Fisher: but these may suffice to veri…ie the truth of that obseruation, or, to speake more properly, that obseruation of the truth, to wit, that she vsually taketh this reuenge of her aduersaries, that they who contradict her in the beginning, contradict themselues before the end: for truthes are alwaies concords, but false-hoods are very often discords, euen among themselues.

Of the third Head foreign, or idle obseruations, and friuolous exceptions.

Page 13. Any man reading this parcell of the Conference, would bee induced to thinke, that Doctor White & Doctor Featly were summoned on the … to this Conference. And what if he should think so? In the same Page: The Relator would make … Reader beleeue, that Master Fisher had set the figure of 2. in the middle of the question. Grande … A most horrible falsification, to set the figure 2. before the second part of the question. You you… self at that place set two points there, thus (…) and added a second whether: therfore it could bee no irremissible sinne in the Scribe, or rather the Printer, to distinguish the parts of the question really and verbally diuers, by prefixing the figure 2. to the latter part of it. Is not this to fish for Banstikles? If you catch no better stuffe in your net, by my consent, you shall be called no more Master Fisher, but Master Minnow-catcher.

Page 14. The Relator would make men beleeue, that Doctor Featly had deliuered the state of the question, memoriter. And Page 16. Diuers particular points rehearsed by the Protestant Relator, which hee (Doctor Featly) read out of a paper. A capitall accusation. Is any proposition the truer, or Argument the stronger, because 'tis said by hart, or memoriter? Piere Daubignie, the French Iesuite of your Order, thanked God, that hee had a singular gift of forgetfulnesse; that, what hee heard in confession, it presently ran out of his memory. This gift of forgetfulnes is not now so rare; therefore you might hauehave spared this obseruation: howbeit, if my memory had been so short and sandy, that I was not able to commit a doozen lines, or thereabouts, to memory (if I had intended it), they were very much too blame, that made choise of mee, first at Oxford, and afterwards at London, to preach the rehearsall Sermons. A very vnfit taske for a Piere Daubignie to hauehave vndertaken.

Page 35. Master Fisher, hearing this slander, did rise vp, and solemnly protest. And Page 36. Master Fisher, rising vp, with his hand and …, &c. And what if hee had protested, sitting … Vnlesse the Relator, Master Fisher, would intimate, that hee is alius stans, alius sedens; or that the speech hee vttered standing, were not so discreet as his other, because the Parasite in the Poet saith, Plus sapio sedens: I hauehave more wit when I sit.

Page 63. It no way sorted with the gray … and grauity of a Doctor, and a Deane, to hauehave laughed and fleered so much, as Doctor White did, &c. … for Doctor Featly, both his lookes, speeches, … and gestures were such, as did not become him; … might better hauehave beseemed a Stage-player, then a Doctor, and an Archbishops Chaplaine. As if (f…rsooth) none were fit to bee a Deane of a Church▪ or an Arch-bishops Chaplaine, but such a one as Crassus, sirnamed Agelastus, was, who neuer laughed but once in all his life; and that was, at sight of an Asse eating thistles: whereupon the prouerbe grew, Similes habent labra Lactucas: such Lettice, such lips. Had you set downe in you… Relation the true cause of Doctor Whites laughter, the Reader, though a Crassus, would as heartily hauehave laughed, as hee or I did: for, such oc…casions were diuers times offered in the confe…rence by you and your Companion, that … of your Romish spleen-bound Catholicks … now and then a smile at your absurdities. If … had meant to barre all manner of harmlesse … and innocent laughters vponupon a sudden occasion giuen, you did ill to choose Master Sweet; you should hauehave chosen Master Sowre to hauehave been your Assistant. You your selfe, Master Fisher, as graue a child as you are, Page 34. make the Reader and your selfe very merry with my Buttery book; for which you deserue to be sconsed. Yet all the punishment I wish you for it, and the rest of your friuolous, (if not ridiculous) obseruations and exceptions in your booke, is that wherein Domitian is said to hauehave taken much pleasure, to weet, to dart a whole after-noone at Flies with a neat and slender iron bodkin.

Of the fourth Head, foreign, or Impertinences, reade

Page 18. & 19. To that answer of mine, you hauehave a purpose, M. Fisher, to cauill: you know my meaning well enough, by the tearm perpetuall; to weet, That Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it, and shall still continue vntill his second comming. You reply: If this were said by D. Featly, hee should hauehave considered, how hee and D. White cauilled vponupon the word, Whether and And, when they knew M. Fisher's meaning well enough; yea, after they had heard him plainely explicate his meaning: whereas M. Fisher onelyonly put them in minde to speake properly like Schollers, and did not cauill or reply, after that D. Featly did explicate his meaning. Chius ad Choum. Is it all one to expound a tearm, & to confound two distinct Questions? to explicate in what sense a man taketh an ambiguous word, and to speake perfect *See the introduction to the defence.non-sense? to speak as ordinary men speak, and to speak as no man speakes? I called faith eternall in that sense, as the Apostle calleth foreign, the eternall-couenant, Heb. 13. and as Saint … calleth the eternall Gospell, Apocal. 14. and as Tully prooueth the soules to be eternall, in his Tusc. Quest. And will you say, that none of these spake properly or like Schollers? Yet lest you should happely mistake aeternum, for, ab aeterno, I added to the word eternall, perpetuall; most plainely to explicate my meaning. And therefore your exception at the word eternall, thus expounded, could be nothing but a meere Cauill; which you your selfe perceiuing, in your later thoughts you help the matter, after your manner, with a mentall reseruation, otherwise called, a lie; saying, page 18: To this M. Fisher answered, first, excepting against the word eternall, saying; Faith is not eternall, or ab aeterno. Which words, ab aeterno, were indeed ab externe; strangers, new thrust into the Conference. Neither did I in my Argument▪ nor you in your Answer, vse those words … aeterno.

Page 22. To that Syllogisme in the Conference, viz.

That Church, whose faith is eternall, and p… petuall, and vnchanged, is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be, and as the Popi… Church, by M. Fisher, is pretended to be.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall, perpetuall, and vnchanged:

Ergo, The Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee, and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee:

You answer, That the Maior is not vniuersally true, for that there may be a Church or company, who may hauehave inward faith, eternall and vnchanged: As for example, A Church of Angels, who, for want of visible professors, are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be. Quid ad Rombum? What is this instance to the purpose? I dispute of the Church on earth: you answer of the Church in heauen. I dispute of faith: you answer of vision. I dispute of a Church succeeding in all Ages: you answer of a Church, in which there is no succeeding, nor Ages. I dispute of a Church visible in all Ages: you answer of a Church visible in no Age. I dispute of noble Confessors & Martyrs, who hauehave sealed the profession of the Christian faith with their bloud: you answer of immortall Spirits. In a word, I dispute of men, named in good Authors, and Histories: you answer of Angels, whose names are written in heauen, and were neuer vponupon visible Record, except two or three named in the Scriptures.

Page 31. To those words of mine, I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause, was transitio à genere in genus: such was my Argument; for faith in a beleeuer, produceth profession and confession thereof; You reply, That M. Sweet's Logick is not lesse to bee esteemed, if hee had tearmed that … (to weet, proouing the effect by the cause) transitio à genere in genus: for, a cause as a cause, an effect as an effect, doe not onelyonly differ specie, but also genere: and besides, a proofe à priori and à posteriori, are diuers kindes of proofes.

foreign: I dispute of a transition à genere in genus, in rebus: you answer of a transition in notionibus. I speake of a straying from the subject of the Question: you answer of passing through diuers heads of Logick in proouing. I speake of genus in Scientijs: you answer of … in the predicables, or predicants: so well, in defence of M. Sweet, you obserue M Sweets pretended Law, of speaking nothing but to the purpose. But certainely you saw not the But, and somissed the mark, reading M. Sweets Law without it, thus: Item 2. That nothing should be spoken to the purpose. EueryEvery Puney in Logick can tell you, that the meaning of transitio à genere in genus, is the proouing of a conclusion in one science, by the principles of another distinct from it; and no way subalternall to it: As for example, To demonstrate a conclusion in Physick, by principles in Geometrie; or to demonstrate a conclusion in naturall Philosophy, out of a principle or principles in Morall Philosophy. But if your interpretation of transitio à genere in genus, should stand, eueryevery demonstration of the effect by the cause, à priori, or of the cause by the effect, … posteriori, in the same Science; should bee a transitio à genere in genus, because, as you say, the cause as a cause, and the effect as an effect, differ genere: for which ignorant Arguing, as M. Sweet was prickt by D. Goad in the Conference, so you, M. Fisher, for your more ignorant and grosse defence of it, deserue to be sent to fustitudinas ferricrepinas Insulas, vbi viuos homines mortui incursant boues.

Page 65. You alledge this for a reason, why you refused to answer Christ & his Apostles, for that (say you) All disputation about particulars, before the true Church were, by her perpetuall Visibility, or some such euident marke found out and knowne, would hauehave beene fruitlesse and endlesse which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference, had with a certaine Minister, would not enter into any particulars, vntill he had asked these generall Questions: First, what ground the Minister would stand vponupon, &c? foreign? Heer you bring-in, by the head and eares, a Conference of yours with a worthy Minister, and an acute Disputant, touching the merit of works. What is this to the Visibility of the Protestant Church, or a Catalogue of Names? If this bee not transitio à genere in genus, I am sure it is transitio à Quaestione in Quaestionem, a vagring from one Question to another sufficiently distant; neither was there any cause at all giuen you of this digression: for, I drew you not to dispute about any particulars, but proceeded to prooue the generall Question proposed by your self, to weet, that The Protestant Church was so visible in the first Age, that the Names of those that taught the Protestant faith, might be produced; viz. Christ, his twelue Apostles, Saint Paul and Ignatius: to whom after you had giuen your Answer, Whether they taught our faith or yours, I would hauehave gone on, in like manner, in naming the Professors of the Protestant faith in all Ages. Now then, let the Reader iudge, whether this your digression into a long tale of a conference of yours with a Minister touching merits, were any way necessary or pertinent.

Page 68. 69, 70. You alleage many Sayings out of Tertullian's golden Book of Prescriptions, to prooue, that Hereticks, who reiected the authority of the Apostolicall and Mother Churches, and refused also some Scriptures, or peruerted the Text by additions and detractions, should not be admitted to dispute with Orthodoxall Christians out of Scriptures: foreign. The sentences indeed you cite, are golden, but you apply them most leadenly: for, what Protestant (whom, by a ridiculous … principij, or begging the Question, you stile Hereticks), what Protestant (I say) euer reiected the authority of the Apostolicall or Mother Churches, as they were in the Primitiue Times; much lesse, either refused or peruerted any part of parcell of the Canonicall Scriptures, by addition or detraction? Wee attribute much more to the holy Scriptures, and the ancient Mother-church (of which, Tertullian speaks), who receiued the Originall of Scriptures from the Authors themselues, then you do: we willingly put our whole cause in their hands: wee renounce any Article of faith which cannot be prooued to hauehave been held by the Apostles and their heires, Tertullian speaks of. Prooue, that the Apostles, or the Primitiue Churches immediatly founded by them, held your Trent-faith, or those twelue new Articles added by Pope Piu… in the end of that Councell, and imposed vponupon all Professors to sweare vntounto; and then I will acknowledge, that the Romane Church hath a good title to the Scriptures. And if we prooue not; that we hold the ancient Primitiue faith, wee will acknowledge, that we hauehave no right vntounto them, nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them. Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other, shall prooue by some other marks, than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one another in the Sea of Rome, that they are the heires of the Apostles, we hauehave a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them, and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master, for our prime Euidence and surest Deed, to make good our plea.

Of the fift Head, foreign, or vain repetitions.

For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence, bequeathed to you as a Legacy in eueryevery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament, I need not alleage, as I hauehave done before, particular leaues and pages: for, you might far better hauehave intituled your whole book, A Battologie, than an Apologie, or, An … pamphlet intituled, The Fisher catched in his own Net.

A judicious friend of mine, to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print, and demanded of him his iudgement of it, returned it back again in the words of the Poet; Ille referre aliter saepe solebatidem.

Another said, M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense, were as irksome and tedious, as his audible, dilatory Answers and Te… giuersations in the Conference. A third said, He was sure, that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial; who professeth, that rather than his Book should perish, by reason of the finall … of it, hee would fill vp as many pages, as … cobbles verses, with that Catholique Pateh, foreign.

Ergo ne pereat bre…ibus mihi charta li…ellis▪

Dicatur potiùs, foreign.

To repeat particularly your vain repetitions, would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you, euen in the reprehension thereof: and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Plat… against Diogenes; Fastum caleas, sed …: so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo, foreign. And therefore, passing them in …, from the contents of your Book, I hasten to … Text.