The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net, Answer to pamphlet

The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net · Answer to pamphlet

p. 1An Answer to a Pamphlet, intituled, The Fisher catched in his owne net. In which, by the way, is shewed, that The Protestant Church was not so visible in all Ages, as the true Church ought to bee; and consequently, is not the true Church, of which men may learne infallible faith necessarie to saluation, by A. C.

DIgnū patellâ operculū; such a cup, such a Couer; such ware, such inscriptiō on the outside of the box: such as the Inne is, such is the signe: such as the Clocke is, such is the Index or Finger of the Diall. A crackt Cup, and a false Couer; naughtie ware, and as bad an inscription; a cheating Inne, and a lewd Signe; an vncertain Clock, & a lying Index; a book full of falshood & fraud, & neuer a true word in the title: for, neither is it an answer to p. 2the Phamphlet so intituled, but a Cauill at some passages therein; neither in this Answer (as hee tearmeth it) is shewed, that The Protestant Church is not the true visible Church, but rather the contrarie, as shall appeare by discussing it; neither was it penned by A. C. but by Master Fisher, who before was caught in his owne net, and now d…nceth in a net, vnderunder the name of A. C. thinking, that no man seeth him: yet your Net is not so close, but that I plainly see you thorow it; and I gesse at the reason why you shrowd your selfe vnderunder the Characters of A. C. There are many passages in this Answer; in which, Master Fishers ingenuity, and sincerity, and modestie, are set vponupon the Last. These commendations of Master Fisher would hauehave lost all their grace in his own mouth, as a Turkeys doth the luster on the finger of a dead man: but it becomes A. C. well enough, to blazon the Armes of Master Fisher. Moreouer, by thus borrowing the letters of your friends name, you play fast and loose. If any man like your Answer, then it is yours; but if hee dislike it, then it is A. C▪ as **Orat. pro Cu… Plantio.Tully being girded at by Laterensis for a common Iester, answereth, Quod quisque dicit, id …e dixisse dicunt: ego autem si quid est quod mihi … esse videatur, et homine ingenu… dignum atqu… doct…, non aspernor▪ stomachor verò, cùm a…rum non me digna in me conseruntur: Other mens jests are fathered vponupon mee: and if they bee wittie jests, and hauehave salt in them, I am content to father them; p. 3but if dry and vnsauorie, I will not owne them. In like manner in your booke:

—Si quid tamen aptius exit:

Quanquā haec rara auis est: siquid t…men aptius exit,

If there be any thing sharply spoken, & to good purpose, M. Fisher will challenge that to himself: but if any thing bee spoken impertinently and flatly (as indeed the greater part of your Musick goes vponupon flats) then A. C. must beare it out. Howsoeuer, in my judgement, M. Fisher, you had better hauehave taken off your mask, and dealt open…y: for, by this concealing your true name, you giuegive your selfe a blow, and your cause a wound. Were not you a Nominall in the Conference? Did not you stand wholly, in a manner, vponupon Names? and will not you now set your owne name to your owne Work? A man would think, that you, who are stored with so many**Per…y; alias Stebden; alias, Fisher. Names, might hauehave bestowed, at least, one of your old cast Names at full length on your Title-page, and not put your Reader to spell A. C. who, I can assure you, spells them vnhappily. One spelleth thus: An Answer written by A. C. that is, A Counterfeit; another, A. C. A Cauiller; a third, An Answer written by A. C. that is, by A Cox-&c. quod dicere nolo: but I spare you, and leaue your Title, and come to your Preface.

p. 4Master FISHER'S Preface.

GEntle Reader, although I doubt not, but all that bee wise and iudicious, especially if they duely consider the occasion & state of the question lately treated (in a Conference betwixt Doctor White, and Doctor Featly Ministers, and Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites) will easily discerne (euen by that false relation which is set out in print by a Protestant) that the Protestants cause hath not gained any thing.

Doctor FEATLY'S Answer.

AS our Blessed Sauiour spake to the Highpriests seruant,Iohn 18. 23John 18:23 saying, If I hauehave done euill, beare witnesse of the euill; if well, why smitest thou me? In like manner, the Protestant Relator may checke you: If hee hauehave done you any wrong in the relation, or set downe any thing vntruely, conuince him of it; if not, why doe you smite him with your tongue and pen? It is your owne Maxime, that No man will lie for the aduantage of his Aduersarie; or for his owne disaduantage: but you here say, that The Protestant cause hath gained nothing by the relation. Therefore it should seeme, by your owne argument, to bee a sincere, and not malicious relation. Howsoeuer, if the Protestant cause hath gained nothing by it, your cause hath lost nothing by it; and if so, why do p. 5you so maligne and persecute, euen vntounto banishment, an innocent Relation? Why do you forbid your Romish Catholiques to reade it? Why apply you so many salues, both in writing and in print, if there be no sore? What the Protestant cause gained by the Conference it selfe, or the relation thereof, malo in aliorum opinione relinquere, quàm in oratione mea ponere: it is fitter for me to heare, then speak. I am sure, Doctor White and my selfe hauehave gained much ease by it: for, before the Conference, wee could neuer bee quiet for your challenges; but since, wee hauehave neuer been troubled with you. It seemes, you had enough of that short Encounter. But you will say, No blowe was struck home: no arrow was drawne vp to the head; no argument prosecuted to the full, at that Meeting. How then could the Protestant Cause gaine any thing by it? By your miserable euasions, and manifest flight and tergiuersation, you, who were ante pugnam auidus & tumidus, were in pugnâ pauidus & timidus: like Captaine Iohn, mentioned by Sinesius, Epist. 104.who in the maine fight, fled amaine, digging his horse-sides, letting loose the Reanes, laying on amaine with a switch, &c. foreign. &c. It will be said, If you fled in such manner, why did not I follow after you? Because in your flight you brake the bridge, by refusing to answer Christ and his Apostles. Scripturis non loquentibus, quis loquetur? p. 6Where Christ and his Apostles cannot be heard, the holy Father was resolued neuer to speake. I account it no foile to my cause, to bee non-futed in that Court, where Christ and his Apostles are excepted against. Where the Charters of our saluation are not pleadable, giuegive mee leaue, M. Fisher, to speake to you Iesuites in the words of **Athanasius de Incar. Christ. Si▪ discipuli est is Scripturarū, per eas nobiscum incedite; si diuersa a Scripturis vultis fabulari, cur nobiscum decortaetis, qui neque loqui neque audire sustinemus, quod extraneum sit ab istis, dicente Domino, Si māseritis in sermone meo, eritis mei Discipuli?Athanasius: If you are the Disciples of the Scriptures, and Christs scholars, walke with vsus by them: if you wil talk extrauagantly and diuersly from the Scriptures, why do you contend with vsus, who dare not to speak or heare any thing without them, or different from them; our Lord saying▪ If you abide in my sayings, you shall bee my Disciples?

Master FISHER'S Preface.

Neuerthelesse, because those who bee partially affected, or of meane capacity, may (as it is to be doubted diuers doe) conceiue & speak amisse of this matter, to the disgrace of the Catholique cause, and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules; I have thought is meet to set out a true relation of the occasion, progresse, and issue of this Conference; and this in such sort, as diuers falshoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued, and the weaknesse of the Protestant cause may be euidently discouered: which is also so bad, as it seemeth it cannot bee supported, but by setting out such lying relations.

The Answer.

Nescio quo pacto vox tua facta mea est. You hauehave p. 7said that which I should hauehave said. When Saint Hierom iustly taxed Sabinian a Deacon, for deflouring a Nun, Sabinian reflects vponupon Saint Hierom, and laies foule aspersions of lewdnes vponupon him: but the difference was that which S. Hierom charged Sabinian with, which was per veram convictionem, by true conuiction: but that which Sabinian charged Saint Hierom with, was per falsam confictionem, by false conifiction, or forged calumniation. Thus the case stands betweene the Protestant Relatour and you, Master Fisher. Hee laies crimen falsi to your charge, per veram conuictionem, by true conuiction: hee proues falshood by you, by vnanswerable arguments drawne from euident circumstances, and your owne confession, and multitude of witnesses beyond all exception: see the Attestation. Whereas you obiect falshood to him, it is per falsam confictionem: you falsly impose falshood vponupon him: you say, that there is falsehood in his relation, but you proue no such thing. Your foreign, heere cannot carry it; first, because the particulars you deny, neerly touch your credit and reputation: therefore it stands you vponupon,Cic. in Ver. to deny them. Negas haec facta: turpis enim et periculosa est confessio: you deny matters of fact alleadged against you in the Conference, because you cannot with safety or credit confesse them. Besides this legall exception against your witnesse in your owne case, you are a Frier, and therefore (according to the ancient p. 8English Prouerb) a L. with a rime to it. Thirdly, you are a Iesuite: and therefore (vnlesse you will swarue from the rule of the prime men & Ring-leaders of your society) you maintain the wholsome and profitable vse of an equiuocating Lie. What doo I or any man knowe, whether, when you speak of diuerse false-hoods of the Protestant Relator, you reserue not in your minde, Fained by me, or deuised by me, to saue my credit, and promote the Catholique Cause? But let vsus see how you turn the Lie vponupon vsus.

Master FISHER'S Preface.

The sight and consideration whereof maketh wee more easily beleeue that to bee true which I hauehave read, viz. that A Decree was made by Diuines in Geneua, defining it lawfull to lie for the honour or credit of the Gospell; and that, conformably to this Decree, an English Minister being told, that one of his Pu…-fellows had made Lies, in stead of Proofs of his Protestant Religion, did answer, saying, Hee cannot lie too much in this cause: it must needs be a weak and bad cause, that needeth to be supported by such weak and bad shifts.

Answer.

I assent to your conclusion: It must needs bee a false religion, that is supported with such lies as you hauehave now heer giuen vsus a brace. True Religion neither is supported by lies, nor any way supports lies. Let vsus see then whether your faith or ours leanes on these base and beggerly crooches. p. 9Certainely, neither Iacobus de Voragine, nor Surius, nor Copgraue, nor Turseline, nor any other Author of your golden Legends, seruing to support your doctrines of Transubstantiation, Inuocation of Saints, Worship of Images and Reliques, Purgatory, and Pilgrimages, &c. can be proued to be a Protestant. He that wrote Beza's Recantation; and another, who since set forth the late Lord Bishop of Londons Legacie, was farre from a Protestant. Name me any Protestant who euer defended pias fraudes, or euer propugned this Tenet, Fides non est seruanda Haereticis, Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks. The Fathers of the Councell of Constance, who, contrary to the faith and safe conduct giuen by the Emperour Sigismund, burnt Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague, neuer learned from the Schoole of Geneua, or the English Pue you speak of, to break faith for the maintenance of the Romish-Catholique faith, and the destruction of the opposers thereof. The first that brake the Oath of Alleageance in heauen, was the Diuell; and by it, becam a Diuell: and the first that brake promise on the earth, was likewise the Diuell, Gen. 3. whose scholars they shew themselues, who teach, that Promises euen confirmed by oathes, the strongest sinewes which hold all humane society together, may be either cut asunder by Papall Dispensation, or cunningly vntied by Iesuiticall Equiuocation. Pray tell me in good earnest: Sprang the doctrine of Equiuocation (whereby you defend, that a man p. 10may affirm, nay sweare an vntruth in words, and make it vp by a mentall reseruation) from vsus, or from you?Heer you hauehave Names, names of your owne trade, and some of them Wardens of your owne equiuocating Company. I cannot finde either Nanarrus, or Gregory de Valentia, or Southwell, or Tolet, or Parsons, among the Catalogue of Protestant Writers. These vpholders of Equiuocation, and many other, whose names deserue to be buried in euerlasting obliuion with the ancient P…iscilianists (whose old, damnable doctrine touching the lawfull vse of lying, they refine with a new Burnish, to make it more saleable), neuer took a Copie of the supposed Decree of Geneua, nor gathered Notes from the English Reader you speak of. No Protestants are so ambitious, as to steale from your Garlands the fairest Flowres wherewith you adorne your heads and pens. If any such Flowres growe in our Gardens, either they die of themselues, or are carefully weeded out. I appeal to all the Confessions, Catechisms, Expositions on the Commandements, Systems of Diuinity, Common-places, seuerall Tractates, wherein, either directly and professedly, or occasionally, they fall on the Subject wee are now about, whether they condemn not all lying and false-hood, open or couered, with mentall reseruation, or without, to the deep pit of hell from whence they came. From which pit, Iacobus de Voragine may very well be thought to take his name, for raking hell for so many lying miracles and fables, wherewith hee hath stuffed the liues of Saints. And now hauing laid the Dog p. 11at your doore, let vsus see how you beat him from you, to ours. Your wisdome and graue fatherhood heer tels vsus of a Decree made at Geneua, you knowe not when; and a tale of a Minister, you knowe not who; and for proof, are alleaged Iohannes Cretensis, and Gulielmus Nullatenensis, or (if you will) Episcopus Chalcedonensis: both these, if I may take your word (for, I hold neither of them worth looking into) relate the Stories aboue-mentioned, and that agreeable to their names and titles, fide Graeca. A pretty Pageant: A Iesuite cites a Iesuite against Geneua; and a Romish Priest, a new no-Bishop of Chalcedon, against an English Minister. Aruspex Aruspicem: one**Fortune-tellor. Gypsie quotes another for the truth of his Art. Simia giues his word for Pseudolus. Belial cites Belzebub the god of Flies, for a Flie-blown scoffing Iergon at Geneua: There was a decree made, defining it to be lawfull to lie for the credit and honor of the Gospell. Where was this Decree or Canon made? In the Senate, or in the Consistory? By the Syndicks, or by the Presbyterie? When was it made? What date beares it? Who drew it? Who engrossed it? VponUpon what occasion was it made? Who subscribed to it? I cry you mercy: now I remember when it was made: it was made the very yeer in which Beza recanted his Religion: and immediately thereupon, all Geneua reconciled it selfe to the Pope. And at that time, the Pope's Holiness, to assure the Geneuians of his vnfained louelove and friendship to their city, p. 12sent them a Copie of the great Charter of Constantines donation, and in the back-side of it, this decree was written, at the beginning of the Iulian period, an. 764. ante orbem conditum. Yea, but some Papists will say, If this Decree were so ridiculous a forgery, Father Eudaemon Iohannes would neuer hauehave reported it, as he doth, in sober sadnes. Titus 1. 12Titus 1:12Heerunto I answer, first, out of Saint Paul, that the Cretians are not alwaies the honestest men: and Father Eudaemon doth not deny nor belie his Country. Secondly, I answer out of the Acts of our Courts, and the Proceedings against Garnet, that this Eudaemon, who takes vponupon him to justifie that Powder-traitor, against most vncontrouleable Euidence, and the publick justice of a whole Kingdome, is none of the honestest among the Cretians. This is that monstrum hominis, monstrum nominis, Andraeas Iohannes sid…nius Cretensis. This is the Canonizer of Garnet and his straw. Father Garnet, forsooth, at his execution (si credere fas est) let fall some drops of bloud vponupon a straw, which miraculously fashioned themselues into the shape and Visage of that Powder-martyr: which is as true, and altogether as likely, as that the Atomi or motes, such as wee now see in the Sun, by a casuall concourse, made the whole world, according to the faith of the antient Epicures. But the best jest was, that as Garnets tongue doubled and equiuocated whil'st he was aliue, so his face equiuocated and doubled after his death. As in Plautus his Amphitrio, Socis begat p. 13another Socia; and Blepharo, another Blepharo; and the Goblet, another Goblet; so like, that they could not be distinguished: in like manner, face begets face, and miracle begets miracle, and straw begets straw; representing Garnet's feature; so like, that without miracle they could not bee distinguished. Thoughts are free. My conceit is, that Father Eudaemon, reading Saint Gregorie's Exposition on those words of Iob, Boues arabant, & asini pascebant iuxta; the oxen plowed, and the asses fed by them; and learning, that by oxen were allegorically meant the Clergie, and by asses, the Laity, thought he might well defend this strawn miracle, because straw is fit fodder for asses. For which his Apologie of Garnet and his straw, as also his witty inuention of a Decree published at Geneua, for the lawfulnes of a Lie tending to the honour and credit of the Gospell, hee meriteth to hauehave the first syllable of his name to bee cut off. As Ieconias is called by the Prophet, Conias: so Eudaemon should bee called from henceforth, **Diuell Iohn.Daemon Iohannes. And for the Bishop of Chalcedon, I wish him no other punishment, for his slander of the English Minister, but to be sent to reside on his Diocesse. And so I leaue them, and come to you, M. Fisher.

Master FISHER'S Preface.

I for my part will not promise to hauehave perfectly remembred and set downe eueryevery word that passed in this Conference, especially spoke by by-standers, nor to hauehave p. 14strictly obserued the precise order of euerie passage: but for the substance and truth of the matter that I doe relate, I assure, that there shall not bee found any falsehood, vnlesse it be in some of those parcels which I doe not relate of my selfe, but out of the Protestant Relator whose relation ordinarily as I doe not contradict, vnlesse it bee vponupon necessarie occasions, so I doe not intend to approue. But, simply relating what it saith, I will leaue is to others to iudge what they thinke fit of it. OnelyOnly this I will say, that euerie one may beleeue it, so farre as it relateth any thing which may aduantage the Catholique Defendants and their cause, or disaduanlage the Protestant Disputants and their cause: for it is certaine, that no man wil lie for the aduantage of his aduersary, or his cause, nor his owne disaduantage. But in such things as it hath set downe aduantageously for the Protestant Disputant, or his cause, there is iust reason to suspect it, inregard that I am told, that Doctor Featly himselfe (who is said to bee the Author) hath confessed, that more is said in the relation, then was said in the conference it selfe: and I am sure, something is left out which was said, and something mis-reported. This being premised by way of preface, I will begin to discourse of the matter it selfe.

Answer.

In this part of your Preface, you arrogate truth to your owne relation, and derogate from the Protestants: to driue forward your owne Barke fraught with vntruthes, you fill your sailes with the breath of your owne praises; assuring p. 15vsus, that, for the substance and truth of the matter that you relate, there shall not bee found any falsehood. How will you assure this, when so many persons of qualitie, present at the conference, and attentiue to it, in diuers particulars testifie the contrarie vnderunder their hands? You are one of the principall Gamesters, Master Fisher; and your credit, if not your Religion, lies at stake. Bee not your owne iudge, but let the standers by determine, whether you or the Protestant Relator hath plaied faire, and aboue boord. For omissions, in regard whereof, you taxe the Protestant relation, they were in your fauour, and not to your preiudice. But because you could not see when you were well, and complaine without a cause, they are now supplied: make your best of them. For additions or mis-reports to the preiudice of any, the witnesses expresly cleere the Protestant Relatour from any such imputation: and if I should fasten any such vponupon him, as you couertly would insinuate, essem similis vestri, id est, mendax. If I were the author of that relation, is it likely, that I would discredit it my selfe? This were, messes meas vrere, to blur with my pencill a true Picture drawne by my selfe. Ita que hîc non modò crimen non haeret, sed nec Iesuit ae cohaeret oratió: as you contradict the truth, so you contradict your selfe.

To conclude therefore my Answer to your Preface, and giuegive the Reader some light to cleer his iudgement in censuring both relations, p. 16the ciuill Law teacheth to suppose euerie man honest, vnlesse the contrary bee proued: and therefore the Protestant Relator may iustly challenge thy good opinion, vnlesse thou find some proofe to the contrary. On the contrary, Qui semel probatur esse malus, semper supponitur esse malus in eodē genere mali: whosoeuer hath been once conuinced of a crime, wheresoeuer afterward hee comes in question, is presumed alwaies to bee faulty in the same kind. But you, Master Fisher, were conuinced to your face by two witnesses, to be a false Relator and setter downe of some of my answers in a former conference: neither did you, or could you deny it: onelyonly you blanched it ouer with protesting, that you did it not wittingly or willingly: from which starting hole you were driuen by Doctor Goad, and you hauehave here giuen mee a staffe to beat you out of it: for, you say, It is certaine, that No man will lye, but for his owne aduantage: but you lied, as is confessed, in setting downe and relating some of my answers, and therefore, by your owne argument, you must needs doe it for your owne aduantage; and consequently, both wittingly and willingly.