The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net, List of authorities – Defense

The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net · List of authorities – Defense

The beginning of the Catalogue.

For witnesses to the truth of the Doctrine wee now professe, and maintaine in the Church of England, I alledge,

IN the first Age from Christs birth, to 100 yeeeres,

CHRIST IESVS.

The twelue Apostles.

Saint Iohn Baptist.

Saint Mark.

Saint Luke.

Saint Paul, with his schollers, Titus, Timothy, and the Churches planted or watered by them.

Romanes, Corinthians, &c.

Clemens, about the yeere 90.

Ignatius, about the yeere 100. with the Churches to whom he wrote.

The Tralians, Magnesians, Tarsians, Philadelphians, &c.

In the second Age, from 100. to 200.

Polycarpus, 140.

Iustin Martyr, 150.

Methodius, 155.

Dionysius Corinthiacus, 158.

Hegesippus, 160.

Melito Sardensis, 170.

Polycrates, cum Synodo Asia…ca, 180 Saint Irenaeus, 190.

Clemens Alexandrinus, 200.

These Professors of the truth (… denying others) I alledge for the two … centuries: further we proceeded not in … Conference: and therefore, heere I … a stop for a time, and withall a challen… to M. Fisher, to set downe the names … his supposed Papists for these two … Ages, together with such poynts of … Romish Religion, as he will prooue … they maintained: which after hee ha… done, I will make good my witnesses, an… disprooue his, and then proceed to … succeeding Ages, euen vntounto Luther, if … permit. Hic rhodus, hic saltus.

Hic modus, haec nostro signabitur area curr… ▪

A defence of Doctor FEATLY his proceedings in the Conference, together with a refutation of Master FISHERS Answer (vnderunder the name of A. C.) to a Treatise intituled, The Fisher caught in his owne Net.

AS Velleius Paterculus obserues, that In the battell at Philippi, in which Brutus should hauehave taken Anthony to task; and Cassius Augustus; it fell out cleane contrary, so that Brutus met with Augustus, and Anthony marched against Cassius: So it came to passe in this present combate. D. White prepared and prouided to encounter M. Fisher, his former Antagonist; and D. Featly was intreated as in Assistant, to deale in a second place with M. Sweet, if occasion were offered. Yet vponupon a cunning trick of the Iesuite, discouered immediately before the Conference, it was then on the place of the meeting, resolued otherwise by some that were principally interessed in the businesse, that D. Featly should beginne with M. Fisher, and oppose him in the Iesuites question touching the visibility of the Protestants Church; and D. White (as there should bee cause) should take off M. Sweet, if he interposed, as also answer in the contrary question propounded to the Iesuites, touching the Visibility of the Romish Church in all Ages. Thus D. Featly, who intended to be but an Assistant, contrary to his expectation, was made the principall Opponent in this Disputation. Wherin, that hee might the better manage the truthes quarrell, and satisfie his Auditory, hee set before his eies certaine rules, partly taken out of Scripture, partly out of the antient Fathers, to direct his proceedings by them.

The first rule is**Phil. 2. 3.Phil 2:3 Saint Paul's: Let nothing bee done through strife or vaine-glory. God is not in the fire of contention, nor in the whirle-winde of passion, but in the still voice of them, who in meeknesse of spirit seeke the truth out of louelove of truth it selfe, not of desire of victory. Nolunt Scriptur… ae docere nisi eos qui doceri quaerunt: The Scriptures will not instruct those, who seek not to bee instructed by them in this manner. Democritus fitly compared truth to a iewell in the bottome of a Well:Veritas in profundo dimersa. if the water bee cleere, we may easily discerne it; but if troubled, it is impossible to see the bottome of the Well, much lesse discerne the most precious Iewel of truth lying in it. For this cause, D. Featly, in the beginning of the disputation, as is confessed by A. C.**Page 15. earnestly besought M. Fisher to deale sincerely, as in the sight of God, setting aside all passion, and by-respects: and when M. Sweet propounded that condition, that all bitter speeches should be auoided, D. Featly with the rest, most willingly accepted of it, and commended M. Sweet for proposing of it.

The second rule is**Naz. Apolog. 1. Nazianzens: foreign: It is the best order in all speech and actions, to begin and end with God. According to which prescription, D. Featly beganne with a short Prayer, foreign and ended partly with a**Thanksgiuing. doxologie, adding to his instance in Christ our Lord and Sauiour, blessed for euer, at whose Name all knees must bow, both in heauen, and earth, and vnderunder the earth; partly, by an holy adjuration: M. Fisher, I charge you, as you will answer before Christ at the day of Iudgement.

The third rule is**Ha…res. 76. Epiphanius his; who obserueth in a Disputation against the Photinians, quòd adhibiti sunt, qui vtrinque exciperent ea quae dicebantur, quae postea ab vtraque parte obsignabantur: there were appointed Notaries, who did take that which was said on both sides, and their notes afterward were signed by both parties. According to which obseruation, M. Ailsbury was chosen and accepted of as Notary on both sides, and D. Featly did set his hand to each Syllogisme, as likewise did M. Fisher to his Answers: and this schedule, containing the substance of the arguments and Answers in the end of the Conference, was sealed with three seales; the Earle of Warwicks, Master Boultons, and Master Bugges.

The fourth rule is **Tertul. aduersus Iudaeos.T…rt…llians, first, to … the ground, and set vp as it were the goales, by determining the state of the question. Summam quaestionis, saith he, certis line is determinemus, & aduersus Marcionem, L. 17. His lineis materiam clausimus, inter quas congredimur. According to which prescription, D. Featly, as soone as he receiued the Question from M. Fisher, returned it in another paper, in which he briefly stated it.

The fift rule is**Aug. contra Cresc. l. 1. Saint Austens, to obserue Logick Forme in Disputation. Quid tu disputas, si disputare non noueris? Quid est aliud dialectica, quam peritia disputandi? Nonne etiam dialectice Christ us cum Iudaeis egit? Why dost thou offer to dispute, if thou knowest not how to dispute? What is Logick, but the Art of disputing? Did not Christ dispute Logically with the Iewes? And a little after, Dialecticam nunquam doctrina Christiana for… dat: The Christian doctrine neuer feareth Logick. According to which prescription, D. Featly desired, that both the opponent & respondent should bee tied to Logick Forme: for, nimble wits, like Proteus, will turne themselues into all Formes; and, vnlesse they bee held fast, and in a sort forced and wrung with the**Nex… Syllogistico. knots of Logicall Arguments, they wil neuer be brought to agnize the Truth. Aristotle speaks of certain **Wouerus de Polymathia.Organa mechanica, artificiall Frames vsed in Greece, quae teneros infantium artus coercerent, ne in praua deflecterentur, sed concinna illorum forma nihil foedum aspectu aut distortū praeferret: which frames serued to keep straight the limbs and joynts of the infants, that they should not goe away, but keep due proportion, and a comely shape. Such artificiall instruments are Logick Formes: they serue to make vsus to walk straight, foreign, neither treading inward nor outward in our discourses. To dispute without Logick, is to rule without a Ruler, or draw a Circle without a Compasse, or steer without a Card. In which respect, although M. Fisher were very vnwilling to be bound to his Logicall behauiour, yet D. Featly had great reason to require it of him, because he bound himself to it, proposing all his Arguments in Logick Form, and disposing them in Logick Method; premising Arguments à priori, before his Argument à posteriori; and Syllogismes, before his Induction; beginning at the top in the first Age, and descending to the later, according to the order of time, nature & dignity.

The most cunning Work-man that euer▪ wrought with the tools of naturall wit, forceth all Arguments into two kindes;

foreign or reprehensorie.

foreign or demonstratiue.

Elencticall or reprehensiue driue at an Aduersary.

Dicticall or demonstratiue aime at a Thesis or Position of our owne. The former sort serue to beat downe an enemies weapons on his owne head; the later, to make good our owne ground. The former may not vnfitly be called, … Arguments; the later, Simply and directly proouing. D. Featly, in this Disputation, made vse of both: first, of Elencticall Arguments, to discouer the weaknes of his Aduersaries; and then of Dicticall, to shew the strength of the Protestants cause, and the Visibility of their Church in all Ages.

The first Argument of the former sort was couched in these words: Although divine and infallible faith is not built vponupon deduction out of humane History. Which may be thus propounded at large:

Whosoeuer propoundeth such a Question, in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Testimonies and Records, betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity.

But M. Fisher propoundeth a Question, in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records:

Therefore M. Fisher betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity.

The Maior, or first Proposition, was prooued by**Bel. l. 2. de Sacr. effec. c. 25 Bellarmine's confession; Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam, cui subesse potest falsum: Humane Stories and Records beget onelyonly an humane faith, or rather credulity subject to error. And it may bee more strongly confirmed by the testimony of Tertullian:**De praescript. c. 16. Aliunde suadere possunt de rebus fidei, nisi ex Literis fidei? Can they otherwise perswade in matters of faith, than out of the Writ of faith? And Saint Augustine: **De nat. et grat. c. 61. And Epist. 112. Si quid diuinarū Scripturarum perspicua firmatur authoritate, sine vlla dubitatione credendum est: alijs vero testibus & credere vel non credere licet, &cSolis Canonicis debeo absolutum, sine vlla recusatione, consensum: I owe absolute consent, without any refusall, onelyonly to the Canonicall Scriptures. The effect cannot exceed the cause; nor the conclusion, both the premises: and therefore wee cannot build a diuine and infallible conclusion (such are all conclusions de fide) vponupon meer humane testimonies, which are not of infallible truth. All other humane Histories come short of the Apocryphall Books of Scripture: for, you rank them with the Canonicall Scriptures; and we giuegive them the**Zanch. de Relig. christ. & alij. next place to them: yet the testimonies out of the Apocryphal of Scripture, may not be alleaged to ground any conclusion of faith vponupon them, as**Ruf. in Symb. Ruffinus affirms in expresse words: Quae omniae legi quidem in Ecclesiis volucrunt, non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandam: All which Books they would hauehave read in the Churches, but not be produced to establish faith out of them.

The Minor or Assumption is thus prooued:

The perpetuall Visibility of the Church is a conclusion of faith, euidently grounded (as is confessed) on Christ's promise in Scripture.

But M. Fisher requireth in his Question, the perpetuall Visibility of the Church to be proued out of meer humane Authors and Stories, expresly excluding Scripture:

Therefore M. Fisher propoundeth a Question, in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records.

The second Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was couched in these words: Although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false s…pposals, &c. Which may be thus propounded at large.

That Question which is grounded vponupon an euident false supposall, needeth not to bee discussed, but ought rather to be exploded.

But M. Fishers Question is grounded vponupon an euident false supposall:

Therefore M. Fishers Question needeth not to be discussed, but ought rather to bee exploded.

The Maior, or first Proposition, is euident in it self: for, to such a Question there needeth no other Answer to be giuen, but simply to deny the supposall.

The Minor, or second Proposition, was thus proued:

First, if the names of all Professors are not, nor euer were, vponupon Record, then M. Fishers supposall is false, viz. that A Protestant Church could not hauehave been visible in former ages, vnlesse the names of all visible professors can now bee shewed.

But all visible professors names are not, nor euer were on record, as it is certaine, and confessed by A. C. p. 33.

Therefore Master Fishers supposall is false; viz. that A Protestant Church could not hauehave been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of those visible Professors could be shewed.

Secondly, if all ancient Records are not now extant, then it is no good Argument, to say, The names of visible Protestants in all ages cannot now bee shewed vponupon Record; therefore they were neuer vponupon Record.

But all ancient Records are not now extant:

Therefore it is no good Argument, to say, that because the names of visible Protestants in all Ages cannot now bee shewed vponupon Record; therefore they were neuer vponupon Record.

These Arguments Master Fisher passed by with a drie foot, and by his silence granteth it.

Thirdly, the people of Africa mentioned by Pliny, were visible men, yet cannot their proper names be shewed & proued out of good Authors: for, good Authors report, they had no proper names at all. With this rather tentatiue then serious instance, M. Fisher and Master Sweet were blankt: but Master Boulton, though he confessed in effect, that they were gon at the common Law: yet he sought to relieue them by the Chan…, by saying, that Though those people had no proper names, yet they had some descriptions, and might bee knowne by some periphrasis. But it may bee replied,

1. A description or periphrasis is no proper name.

2. They cannot produce out of any good Authors, any particular description of these men, whereby they may bee personally and indiuidually distinguished one from another; but onelyonly a generall description, that They are a people in Africa, neere the hill Atlas, which hauehave no proper names; and thus it will bee easie to produce Protestants in all ages, in a generall description of certaine men, who opposed certaine errors against, and besides the Doctrine of Scripture, and especially the errors of the Church of Rome.

Fourthly, the Author and Head of the Heretikes called Acephali, was a visible man, but his name cannot bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors: for those Hereticks were therefore called Acephali, or headless, because the certain Author and Head of that Heresie could neuer bee knowne. And heer, if it be lawfull to pay Master Fisher with his owne coyne, a man might truly say, that both himselfe, and his as…istant Master Sweet, and their good friend at a dead …, Master Boulton, were all nonplussed with this argument, for they replied nothing to it.

Fiftly, the falshood of Master Fishers supposall (the defence whereof Master Sweet rashly vndertooke in the conference) may bee farther manifested by diuers other instances; as

First, there were 7000. in Elias time, who neuer bowed their knee to Baal: yet their names cannot be shewed nor prooued out of good Authors.

Secondly, there were who opposed corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises, and their false doctrine, or at least assented not vntounto it, in the age immediatly before Christs Incarnation: yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors.

Thirdly, the first brocher of the errors touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost, and Authors of the schism and rent between the Greek and Latine Churches, were visible men, yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors.

Fourthly, they who first brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnderunder one kinde onelyonly, were visible men: yet the names of**Greg de Valent. de legit. vsus. Eucharist. them cannot bee shewed nor proued out of good Authors.

Fiftly, there were Bishops in almost euerie Diocess of England & Ireland, and other Countries, as also Parsons of Parishes, succeeding one the other for aboue 1000. yeers: yet the names of such Bishops and Parsons cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors.

Sixtly, Master Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors from Noah, according to the flesh, were visible men: yet all their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors.

And here the Protestants might iustly call for names, as the Papists did in the conference when their Champions were at a fault.

First, there were a people of Africa, neuer christned by any proper names. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Secondly, there was an Author of the Heresie of the Acephali. Names, Names, where is his Name?

Thirdly, there were 7000. in Elias time, who neuer bowed their knees to Baal. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Fourthly, there were those who opposed the corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises in the age before Christs Incarnation. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Fiftly, there were those that first broached the error touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Sixtly, there were those that brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnderunder one kind onelyonly. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Seuenthly, there were Bishops almost in each particular Diocesse of England, and Ireland, and other Countries, as also Parsons of Parishes for aboue 1000. yeeres. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Eightthly, M. Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors, descended from Noah, were visible men. Names, Names: where are their Names?

The third Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was implied in D. Featly's challenge to M. Fisher, to name any City, Town, Village or Hamlet, where the present Romish faith was taught for fiue hundred yeers & more next after Christ. And indeed heer the Title of the Conference was verified, M. Fisher was caught in his owne Net: for, in propounding the Question of the Visibility of the Church in all Ages, he spred a strong Net (as hee thought) to catch D. White and D. Featly, in supposing it to be impossible for them to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages, especially in the Ages immediatly going before Luther; but hee was caught in his owne Net, by being put to proue the Visibility of the Romish Church for fiue hundred yeers immediately after Christ. And therefore we turne his owne Ordnance vponupon him, wherewith hee intended to batter down the walls of our Sion.

The true Church must hauehave been visible in all Ages before Luther; yea, so visible, as M. Fisher pretendeth, that The Names of the Professors of the faith thereof may be shewed and proued out of good Authors.

The Romish Church hath not been so visible:

Therefore the Romish Church is not the true Church.

The Maior or first Proposition is the Iesuites owne.

The Assumption is thus prooued:

No Church, holding the entire doctrine of the Councell of Tre…t in generall, or the fifteen Tenets set down in the Conference in particular, can be shewed for fiue hundred yeers and more after Christ.

But the Romish Church holdeth the doctrine of the Councell of Trent in generall, and those fifteen Articles in speciall:

Therefore the Romish Church cannot bee shewed to hauehave been visible for fiue hundred yeers after Christ.

And first, that no Church within the space aboue-named, can bee prooued to hauehave held the foresaid Tenets of the present Romish Church, was proued in the Conference by M. Fisher's silence, and much more by A. C. his silence in his Answer to the former Conference. Heer M. Fisher was as mute as a Fish. Campi… in his tenth reason boldly affirmeth, that … prooue the Romish faith: but we could not hear so much as any v…ces or … from M. Fisher, to testifie, much lesse to justifie the Romish faith in the first and best Ages.Pour contrel. Pli… writes of the**Plin. l. 9. nat. hist. Poly…um in tantum Locusta pauet, vt si iuxta viderit, omni… moriatur. … custa or Lobster, that he is so afraid of the …, that it is death for him to see him: so wee may truely say, that M. Fisher was so afraid of the fifteen Articles mentioned in the Conference, to bee justified by Antiquity, that it was death to him to name them. And therefore when hee comes to that part of the Conference, he passeth away in an Homericall Cloud, saying, Heer D. Featly made an insolent Challenge. But A. C. durst not set down so much as the words of the Challenge in particular, lest his Catholique Disciples should be scandalized at it.

Secondly, the Inuisibility of the Romish Church, for many hundreds of yeeres after Christ, may be inferred from the confessions of our learned Aduersaries. Alfonsus confesseth for Indulgences; Roffensis, for Purgatory; and Gregory de Valentia, for Communion vnderunder one kinde, that they were no part of the beleefe or practice of the ancient Church. Verily I beleeue, Alfonsus à Castro and Roffensis needed a pardon for so expresly professing the nouelty of Pardons and Indulgences.**L. 8. contr… haeres. verbo. indulg. Alfonsus his words are, Multa sunt Posterioribus nota, quae Vetustissimi Scriptores prorsus ignorârunt. De Transubst antiatione, rara in Antiquis mentio; de Purgatorio ferè nulla. Quid ergo mi…um, si ad h…nc modum contigerit de Indulgentijs, vt apud Priscos nulla sit menti…? There are many things knowne to later Writers, which the Ancients were altogether ignorant of. There is seldome any mention of Transubstantiation among the Ancients; almost none of Purgatory. What maruell then, if it so fall out with Indulgences, that there should be no mention of them by the Ancients?**Contrae Lutherum, c. 18. Roffensis strikes in Vnisons with him: Cùm Purgatorium tam serò cognitum … receptum vniuersae Ecclesiae fueri…, quis iam de I… …lgentijs mirari possit? Sith Purgatory hath been so lately knowne and receiued of the whole Church, who can now wonder concerning Indulgences? As for communion vnderunder one kind, and depriuing the Laity of the Cup (which Gelasius calleth, Grande sacrilegium, a great sacrilege) that it was an abuse lately crept into the church, we need no more pregnant testimony, than Gregory de **Lib. de legit. vsu Eucha…. c▪ 8.Valentia voluntarily affordeth vsus: … negamus, qu…m vtraque species olim administr… sit, vt apparet ex Paulo, 1. Cor. 10. Cypriano, Athanasio, H…eronymo, &c. We deny not, that the Communion in ancient times was administred vnderunder both kindes, as appeares out of Saint Paul, Cyprian, Athanasius, Hierom, &c. and in his tenth Chapter. Et quidem quando primùm vigere c…pis consuetudo communicandi sub alterâ tantùm specie in aliquibus Ecclesiis, minimè constat: coepit autem … c…nsuetudo in Ecclesiâ Latinâ esse generalis non … ante tempor… Concilij Constantiensis: And truely it appeares not when this custome of communicating vnderunder one kinde onelyonly, began in some Churches: but it began not to be a generall custome in the Latine Church, much before the Councell of Constance. I will heere instance in one Particular more: and That is the publique Seruice in an vnknown tongue, which was brought into the Church by Pope Vitalian; who, as **… ▪ Lect.Wolphius sheweth, brought-in the Latine Seruice, and obtruded it to the whole Church precisely, in the yeer 666, which is the number of the Name of the Beast in the Apocalypse. I intreat the Reader to take speciall notice of it, that**Iren. l▪ 5. aduers. haeres. c. 3… foreign, nomen hab…t 666. et valde verisi…ile est, & … regnum hoc habet voc…ulum: Latine e…im sunt qui nunc regnāt. Irenaeus findeth the numerall Letters, 666, in the word foreign: and Wolphius prooueth out of Popish Writers, that this very yeer, 666, the Latine Bishop Vitalianus commanded Latine Seruice in the whole Christian world.

And this may serue for the confirmation and illustration of the former sort of Arguments vsed by D. Featly in the Conference.

For the later, which were Dicticall or demonstratiue, partly drawne à priori, from the cause, and propounded in Syllogisticall Forme; partly à posteriori, from the effect; and propounded in an Induction; they march on in their owne strength, and need no conuoy. Some weak resistance hath been made by some stray Troops, who are met withall in the precedent Remonstrance. But now, after fiue Moneths, M. Fisher, leuying all his forces, biddeth them battell, and proclaimeth it by his Herauld, A. C.