The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net, Letter of remonstrance
A REMONSTRANCE sent in a letter, by Doctor Featly, to his worthy Friend Sir Humfrey Lynde, touching the former conference held at his house, Iune 27. 1623.
PLiny writeth of one of the Roman Emperours,Natural. hist. l. 36. c. 5. that he vsed to behold the Fensers (playing their prizes before him) in the reflection of an Emerald: Gladiatorum pugnas spectabat Smaraegdo.which so refreshed his eye with the verdure thereof, that though the Obiect were not very acceptable alwaies, and pleasing to him; yet the viewing it in that precious reflecting Gemme was very delightfull. Such a precious Emerald is the heart & affection on of a true friend, which represents, with delight and content, those things concerning our selues and others, which otherwise of themselues may bee irksome and grieuous vntounto vsus. I must confesse, your Letter touching our conference at your house, had many Pils wrapt vp in it: yet were they so sugred with your louelove, and gilded with your eloquence, that I easily and pleasantly swallowed them down. It grieueth you much, that our pains in the conference (which took the good effect you desired) should bee no better accepted and interpreted, then they are by some, as is reported. The Romane Senate gaue publike thanks to Terentius Varro, for encountring Hannibal at Cannae, though with the losse of their … Army. But it falleth out contrary, say you; in this encounter. In which though the truth lost nothing, but gained him, whose satisfaction was by it intended, & strengthened also many others; yet you adde, that you find some of our profession more ready to except against, then approve the proceedings in this combat. I maruell not at it. For, Saint Ierome, after hee had vndergon an encounter in poynt of faith, was taxed by some friends to the truth, for not managing that fight so well as they wished. *Ierom. Apol. ad Pamachiū.To whom that accomplished Doctor of the Church, returneth this smart Answer: Delicata doctrina est pugnanti ictus dictare de muro; et cum ipse vnguentis delibutus sis, cruentū militem accusare formidinis: It is an easie and sweet kind of teaching, for a man that is safe himselfe, and free from danger of blowes, from a high wall to dictate strokes, & poynt out to a souldier in the Field, where he should smite his aduersarie. If those, who are so confident of their owne strength aud skill, had been on the place, and engaged in the fight, peraduenture it may bee doubted, what great trophies they would hauehave erected of their victorie ouer these Combatants. Howsoeuer, for my part, I neuer held that Lacedaemonian King*Eras. Apoph. ouerwise, who, hauing receiued good approbation frō Iupiter, was not content therewith, but sendeth to Apollo, to knowe whether hee were of the same iudgement. I rest vponupon the gracious interpretatiō of his Maiesty, & their approbatō, who vnderunder him are the chiefe Leaders in the Lords Battels. For others, I put them to their choyce, Aut*Hieron. Apol. ad P… mach. cap. 8. proferant meliores epulas, et me conuiua vtantur, aut qualicun que caerula nostra contenti sint: Either let them prouide better cheere, and I will bee their guest, or if they will needs bee mine, let them take what they finde; a short supper broke off, before the principall intended and prouided dishes were serued in. If this will not satisfie them, I pray them to thinke, that many times as some take a libertie to themselues, to censure other mens actions, and sleighten their indeuours: so it is not vnlikely, but that they may meete with others, who will take the like libertie to censure their censures, and contemne their contempts. But so much am I obliged to your louelove, worthie Knight, that you hauehave not onelyonly giuen me an inkling, that some except, but also acquainted mee what they except against that after-noones encounter. Their exceptions lie either against conferences in generall in point of Religion, of which belike they say, They neuer saw any good come; or against the passages of this Conference in particular.
For Conferences in generall with the Aduersaries of our faith, either to conuert them to the Truth, or conuince them with the Truth, wee hauehave not onelyonly frequent precepts & examples in Scripture, but also an expresse*Can. 66. Ministers to conferre with Recusants. Canon of our Church, and an especial charge, euen with increpation from his Maiesty, in his Speech in the vpper House, at the first Session in the last Parliament. And if these were not, shall we suffer Wolues to enter into our Folds, and worry our dearest Lambs, bought at the high price of our Redeemer's Bloud, and that before our eyes, and not open our mouthes for their rescue? Can wee heare our noble Champions disgraced; our blessed Martyres bloud of England trampled vponupon, as spilt in vain; nay, our dearest Mother, which hath brought vsus forth in Christ, to bee proclaimed an harlot, and all her children bastards, nay, damned miscreants, as hauing no visibility of Church, no possibility of saluation; and none of vsus vnsheath the sword of the Spirit in so good a quarrell? O patientiam omni impatientiâ dignam! Such patience would put a man out of all patience. Such silence deserues a long and lowd declamation against it. Is this to be ready to giuegive an account to eueryevery man that demandeth a reason of*1. Pet. 3. 15 the hope that is in vsus? Is this to stop*Tit. 1. 11 the mouth of those who subuert whole houses, by leading away captiue simple women loaden with iniquity, and by our Eue-tempting Adams to eat the forbidden fruit? Is this to*Tit. 1. 9. conuince the gainsayers? I feare and tremble when I reade the words of our Sauiour;*Ioh. 10. 12, 13 An hireling, seeing the Wolf, leaueth the sheep, and fleeth, and the Wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. I speak not of publick disputations (within a State settled and resolued many yeers in point of Religion, as ours hath been, and is, God be thanked), but of priuate occasionall conferences, for the satisfaction especially of persons of quality: which, as*Gaspar Laurent. de publicis disputationibus. Laurentius truely collects, without great offense to God, and scandall to his Truth, cannot sometimes bee anoided; the Aduersaries growing confident vponupon such seeming diffidence and refusall, and clamorous vponupon our silence. Aristotle was wont to say,Plut. apoph. foreign: It is a shame for mee to hold my peace, when Zenocrates takes vponupon him to teach. May not wee of the Ministery, that are Christs maeniall seruants, reflect in like manner on our selues, and say, foreign: It is a shame for me to be silent, when Priests and Iesuites are so clamorous? It is a shame for the Ministers of Christ to be backward to defend, when the Agents of Antichrist are forward to oppugne our most holy faith? nay, when the Supporters of heresie and idolatry hauehave taken so much brasse from the Images which they worship, to arme their own foreheads with, that they dare challenge and braue Truth and Religion to her face? Yea, but say they in the words of Tertullian,*Tert. de praescript cont. haeret. c. 17. Quid promouebis, disputator, &c.? What shall we gain by confronting these men? They wil not yeeld, nor cease to blaspheme the way of truth, though they bee neuer so plainly confuted. Non persuadebis, nec si persuaseris. Yet the Truth is honoured, in that shee hath Aduocates to plead her cause: and these pleadings erunt testimonio contra eos, shall bee an euidence against her Opposites at the Barre of Christ. The*Quintil. Institut. orat. Gubernator vult salua naue in portu peruen… re: si tamen tempestate abreptus fuerit, non ideo minus erit gubernator. Pilot doth not alwaies bring the Ship safe to the Hauen; nor the Chirurgion cure the wound; nor the Physician recouer his Patient; nor the Preacher gain his Auditory: yet, if hee do his part, hee loseth not his reward with God, nor approbation with men. To labor for fruit, is ours: the fruit of our labor is Gods; who will render to eueryevery man *Rom. 2. 6 Apoc. 20. 13according to his work, not according to the successe thereof. And therefore although the issue of Conferences should prooue no better sometimes, than of Synods in the daies of Gregorie Nazianzene, yet would not this excuse our neglect of so necessary a duty: for, God can gain by our losses, and he attaineth his end, euen in our failing; at least,*Rom. 1. 20 foreign, to make the enemies of the truth vnexcusable. And what if wee doo not winne them, yet wee confirme both our selues and others, that louelove the Truth in the Truth. And in this respect, Conferences, if they be aduisedly vndertaken, and discreetly managed, according to their Latine Etymologie, alwaies conferre and conduce to some good end; to speake nothing of the Conference at Hampton-Court, or D. Rainolds conference with Hart: the fruit whereof we gather euen at this day. Whosoeuer readeth the life of Saint Austen, penned by Possidonius, and Caluins by Beza, shall finde, that as the Pelagians and Manichees of old, so the Libertines and Anabaptists of late, receiued their smartest blowe by disputation. Did not Cyril confound Nestorius; Athanasius, Arius; Saint Austen, Fortunatus, by disputation? By what did Luther gain more, than by disputations? Was not Felix, Possid. in vit.Saint Austens purchase, if I may so speak?Synop. Cent. Was not Berillus, Saint Origens? Fabius, Dionysius his Conuert by disputation? What better issue of a Conference could bee desired, than was that of Caecilius with Octauius, related by*Dial. Octa…. Minutius Felix? which endeth thus: We are both, saith he, winners in this Game: you hauehave wonne mee, and I hauehave won the Truth Tu victor mei, & ego triumphator erroris: We are both Conquerors: you hauehave conquered me, and I triumph ouer my owne error.
Of writing many Books, especially of Controuersie, there is no end: in which, wee hauehave an Argument without an Answer, and an Answer without a Reply. But, in a Conference orderly carried, the force of eueryevery Argument, and sufficiency of eueryevery Answer, is brought to the Test; and Truth and Error, by grappling together, try their vtmost strength. As, by smiting the Flint with the Steele, wee strike out fire: so, by the conflict and collision of contrary Arguments, the cleare light of Truth breaketh out.*Rain. Thes. Vt aurum è terrae venis effossumab admistis terrae faecibus contundendo segregant Metallici; ita veritatis aureus Thesaurus collisu rationum mundatur à faecibus, &c. As those that work vponupon Mines, seuer the precious metall from earthly dregs, by beating the Ore in the stamping-mill: so the golden treasure of Truth is seuered from dregs of error, and cleared, by being beaten out by Argumentations to or against.*de veritate religionis Christ. Ludouicus Viues long ago obserued, that the true faith and Religion is like gold, which is bettred by the hammer: but false religion, Heresie and superstition, are like Alchumy-stuffe, or glasse, which cannot endure the stroke, but are battered in pieces by it. The Christian Religion neuer refuseth touch of argument: but the Gentiles of old, and the Mahumetans at this day, refuse all triall by disputation; nay, they prohibit it vnderunder paine of death.
The Hussites, as Cocleus relates in their storie, were readie to bid their Aduersaries battell by disputation, but their Aduersaries were not so readie to vndertake them. Nay,*Cocleus, hist. l. 1. l. 21. Iohn Gerson, in his Epistle to the Arch-bishop of Prague, is so far from encouraging him to put the matter to a triall in disputation, that he aduiseth him to take a farre different course with them, whom he there falsly calls Pseudo-doctores, false teachers. Now, saith he, The onelyonly readie way to cut downe Heresies, is by the temporall sword. Miracles are ceased; neither is it lawfull now to tempt God, to confirme our faith, tanquam nouellam, by Miracles. Neque rursus in disputando apud tales pertinaci animositate contendentes, et innitentes propriae prudentiae, vllus vnquam erit finis; quin potius nimis altercando, iuxta verbum Senecae, deperdetur veritas, scandalizabitur populus, laedetur quo que summa charitas. Deni que talis obstinatorum proteruitas incidit in illud poetae, Aegrescit que medendo. Neither will there bee any end of disputing with such pertinacious contenders, who rely vponupon their owne wisdome: nay rather, according to the words of Seneca, the truth will bee lost with much wrangling: the people will bee scandalized; charity woūded; in a word, the proteruitie of obstinate persons will make good that of the Poet, The wound is the worse for the cure. So little did the Papists gaine (whatsoeuer faire glosse Gerson puts vponupon it) by disputation with those noble Fore-runners of our Protestant Faith: and far lesse hauehave there successours gained by their disputations in Germany, France and England. I need adde no more to our disputers against disputations in generall, because they fight but aloof off. I am now to buckle with those who take the matter & manner of this conference to task: against which, as I vnderstand by you, they obiect, that it was but a Flourish, no Fight; a praeludium, and no true Encounter; no Argument in it prosecuted to the full. This obiection might hauehave been spared, because in the Conference it self it is confessed, that it grew not to that maturity, nor attained that progresse or issue which was desired: and there also it is expressed, whose fault it was. If a heauy and dull Beast, in rich trappings and furniture, making great shew of metall by rising and curuetting, yet, beeing spurred and lashed by the Rider, and beaten by all the standers by, wil not mend his pase, what disparagement is this to the Rider?
Howsoeuer, say they, the grapes being not ripe, were not fit for the presse; yet as vnripe as they were, they quenched then his thirst for whom they were gathered: and they, who, without knowledge of the principal Owners, put them in a few weeks so often in the presse, affirme, that the wine*Qui me vendit Bibliopola negat. Martial. Epigr. lyes not vponupon their hand. Notwithstanding this and some other testimonies, of some kind of approbation of this rather assay, then performance, I had buried this Embryo as soone as it was borne: and as it came into the world without a Midwife; so it should hauehave gone out of the world without a Bel-man, had not the slanderous tongues of enemies saued the life of it: who, both in England and beyond the seas, reported confidently, that it was such a mis-shapen and deformed monster, that the parents were ashamed it should see the Sunne. To checke these most false and iniurious reports, and preuent future scandall, it was in a manner necessarie, that this pamphlet should bee suffered to fly abroad. And now that it is abroad, what doe they libell against this little Impe, vnable to defend it self against such strife of tongues? They say, In it the proofes are diuersiue, and that I decline the method required by Master Fisher, plainely to proue the visibilitie of our Church, by producing Catalogues of names in al ages, beginning from Luther; and so, ascending vpwards to Christ and his Apostles. When I read this obiection in your letter, I could scarce forbeare laughing, because it brought to my remembrance the simple Answer of a fresh-water souldiour; who, when his Antagonist remembred him with a smart blowe or two vponupon his head and thighes, exclaimed, What, man? Canst thou not see my buckler? Is not my buckler broad enough? I saw M. Fishers buckler, and withall I obserued his blind sides, at which I laid. Am I therefore to bee blamed? should I aduise him, as Aiax doth Vlysses,*Ouid. Metamorph. Post clypeum que late, et mecum contende sub illo. Lie behinde thy buckler, and contend with me vnderunder it? The truth is, that in the ages immediately before Luther, and since the*Apoc. 20. 2. 1000 yeer, in which Satan was let loose, the Papists hauehave much to say for the visibility, yea and pomp too of their degenerating Church: but in the Primitiue tymes, especially in the golden Age, in which Christ and his Apostles, and their immediate successors and Scholars liued and died, they hauehave no more to say for the visibilitie of their now new Romish Church, then Master Fisher and Master Sweet said in the conference. Whosoeuer should hauehave discoursed in those dayes, of Masses without Communicants, or Communion without the Cup, or the Lords Supper without Bread or Wine in substance, or prayers without vnderstanding, or adoring the Cross, or Dirges for the dead, or blessing Salt and Spettle, or censing Images, or baptizing bells, or hallowing grains and medals, or wearing Agnus Dei's, or praying by tale vponupon Beads, or of the circumgestation of the Hoast, or Priest shauen crownes, or Monks Cowles, or Cardinals Hatts, or the Popes …triple Crowne, or his pardons, and dispensations, and taxes for all manner of sinnes, or his canonizing Saints, o… deposing Kings, or the like; would hauehave been thought besides himselfe.
This is the true cause why, the question being propounded, Of all ages before Luther, I chose rather to descend frō Christ to Luther, then ascend frō Luther to Christ and his Apostles. Demosthenes *Orat. de Corona.will by no meanes endure, that his aduersarie Aeschines should prescribe him his method: he saith, It is against the golden rule, to be kept in all iudgements, foreign. Yea, but they say, this is not all: for, you turned quite out of the way: You should hauehave proued one thing, and you proued another. The question was of the visibilitie of Church: but your arguments were of the eternity of faith. Is not this thiug ad*Eras. Adag. Choū; Ego respondeo de allijs: tu disputas de cepis: M. Fisher answered of Garlike, & you spake of Onions. For this vnsauory exception, M. Sweet was sauced in the conference: where it was proued against him, that to proue an effect by the cause, is a direct & naturall, and not a diuersiue proofe. My argument standeth thus:
The true Primitiue faith, once giuen to the Saints, hath had, must, and shall hauehave alwaies visible Professors thereof.
But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith, once giuen to the Saints:
Therefore the Protestant faith hath had, and shall hauehave alwaies visible Professors thereof.
The Maior is euident in Scripture, and confessed on all hands. The Minor I offered to proue: but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall. The Maior and Minor passing without controll, none but Master Fisher would hauehave denied or distinguished vponupon the conclusion. This argument I affirme not onelyonly direct, to proue the conclusion denied; but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question, which is, to finde out the true Church: whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe, but out of Scripture. And for the visibility of the true Church, either it is a matter of faith, or not. If not, what need wee so much trouble our selues with it? If it bee matter of faith,*De praescr. contr. Haeret. c. 16. Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei, nisi ex literis fidei? can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith, then out of the Writ of faith, that is, the holy Scripture? For humane Stories and Records in al ages, they are not easily found: and when we hauehave found them, we find them so defectiue, so corrupted and defaced, and oftentimes so contrary one to another, that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour. And were they neuer so perfect, as Bellar. confesseth, they could not beget*Bellar. l. 2. de effect. Sacram. c. 25. quod Histories quibus meminerint eorum Conciliorum, non potest parere fidem nisi humanam, cui potest subesse falsa. diuine and infallible faith. If no man can bee saued, without knowledge that he is in the true Church: and no man can knowe, that he is in the true Church, vnless hee can proue out of good Authours, the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth, as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation; what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church, who neither hauehave time, nor meanes, nor learning, to search all Records of Antiquitie? Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages, who maintained the present Tridentine faith (which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did, or could,) yet they are little neerer: For Iewes and Paynims, and it may bee, diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages, since Christ and his Apostles times, and some before. From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures: but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures, a man may by infallible consequence, grounded vponupon Gods promises to his Church, conclude perpetuall visibility of professors, more or lesse. And therefore the course I tooke, is not onelyonly the streight, but the easiest and onelyonly certaine way to bring vsus to the true Church, which is the*1 Tim. 3. 15 house of the liuing God, the pillar and ground of truth. Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism. I wil now giuegive you an account of my Catalogue, and shew my inducements to my induction. Against which, I heare by you, it is excepted, that in vndertaking it, I leaue the beaten way, and take a way by my self, where I shall surely lose my selfe, & neuer come to an end. To this obiection, the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer: Nemo tenetur diuinare; No man is bound to prophecie before-hand, especially of the successe of anothers labours. If leaue be procured for a second Meeting, the golden thread of succession, which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand, and his Apostles, shall be drawne downe (God willing) to later Ages, euen to Luthers time. But what they meane by holding the beaten way, I cannot easily diuine. If they mean, that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church, by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church, foreign; I say, that way, perhaps beaten by some, yet seems to me a slipperie & dirty way: and I hope I shall bee able to shew, that we need not*Eras. Adag. aurum in stercore quaerere, to seek the golden purity of faith, amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions, and deprauations in later ages. Many of our Worthies hauehave shewne mee a more excellent way; quos sequor à longe, et vestigia pronus adoro. These are, Doctor Abbot, now my Lord of Canterbury, in his Answer to Hill; Humfrey to Campion his third reason; Doctor Vsher, now Lord of Meth, de successione Ecclesiae; The History of the Waldenses; Fox, Acts and Monuments; Crispin, of the state of the church; Morneys mystery of iniquity, with Riuets defense thereof; Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors; Illiricus witnesses of the truth; Wolsius his select readings; Lydius his Waldensia, and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse. As those that trauell by night through the*Be. Orat. Hercynian Forest, when they are at a stand, obserue certaine birds fleeing before them; and, by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark, guide their steppes, and finde out a way: so, in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages, when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee, I doubt not, but, by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that hauehave flowne before me, I mean the light▪ of their siluer quils who hauehave wrote of this Subject, to finde out my way.
I hauehave omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference, except an omission of the s…ate of the question; which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered, as they could wish. That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference, they say is so brief, that,*Sen. de Ben. instar fulguris terret magis quàm illustrat, it is like lightning, which rather scares, than lights the Passenger in his way. If this were a iust exception, yet it lyeth not against me, who had the Opponents part put vponupon me, but against M. Fisher, who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent. For, by the orders of all Schools, it is the Answerers, and not the Opponents task, to state the Question. He that keeps a Fort in battel, is to make his ramparts, and guard the walls with redouts and out-works: the assailants part is to lay well his batteries, and make breaches where he can.
At the next desired meeting, when D. White or my selfe should hauehave supplyed the Respondents place, the Question should hauehave been explicated to the full (by the distinctions & conclusions heerin inclosed). But, as that Meeting, by iniurious suggestions, was then, so I feare, all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine. The Informers, whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion, I knowe not: sure I am, they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong, by incroaching vponupon his office, which is, To bee*foreign: the Accuser of the brethren. Accusator fratrum. As for mine owne part, it grieues not m… to receiue a wound from them, who, in due respect to Religion and Calling, should hauehave rather applied a salue. But I may truely say, in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus,
—*Mart. Epigr. Vulnus quod cepi non dolet, in quam: Sed quòd tu caperes, hoc mihi, Linde, dolet.
It grieues me, that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention, to regain your kinsman to our Church, and establish your friends in the Truth. Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church. Macte virtute. As you hauehave raised Bertram: so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust, and heale those Authors who hauehave lost peeces of their tongues (which the Indices Expurgatorij hauehave cut off, for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome). And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward, at least by some, than affronts for acknowledgements; and rebukes for thanks; yet doubt not▪ one day, for a full recompence of your paines and charges. Trust him for your Aur…ola, whom you trust for your Crown: take his word for the Interest, vponupon whom wee all rely for the Principal; who as he fearfully threatneth, that he wil be ashamed of them who deny *Mat. 10. 33him before men, so he graciously promiseth to all those who*Luke 12. 8 confesse him before men, that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen.
foreign DANIEL FEATLY.