The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net, Reflections on conference
Master FISHER his Reflection vponupon the occasion and issue of the Conference.
NOW hauing made an end of this Relation, I am to intreat the gentle Reader to reuiew it, or reflect vponupon it, and to call to minde, and mark, first, the occasion, and consequently, the end of the Disputation; secondly, the Question, and true meaning of it; thirdly, what method was most fit to be obserued, intreating of this Question; fourthly, what course was taken by the Protestant Disputant, and what by the Catholique Respondent. All which beeing duly considered, thou wilt better see what is to bee iudged of the whole Conference and wilt make to thy selfe more benefit of the matter treated in it, then perhaps hitherto thou hast done about the occasion.
The occasion of the Disput…, was, &c.
Doctor FEATLY his Answer.
THere is a threefold sight.
First, per radium rectum, by a right beame or line betweene the eye and obiect; as when I looke directly vponupon a mans face, and behold the shape and proportion thereof as it is in it selfe.
Secondly, per radium reflexum, by a reflected line or beame; as, when I behold a mans face and shape in a glasse.
Thirdly, per radium refractum, by a broken beame; as, when I behold the same mans face, or any thing else through dispar medium, as water or glasse. Whosoeuer viewes your Reflection, as you call it, with a single eye, will iudge, that it ought rather to hauehave been tearmed a Refraction; not for that it proceeds from a man of a broken brain: (for your intellectuals are good enough) but because you defend a broken cause; and your proofes are broken scraps taken out of Brerelies alsme-box: and you represent no truth entirely, but brokenly. If it represent any thing entirely, as by reflection, it is the Fisher viewing himselfe vnhappily caught in his owne net, struggling and striuing to breake out of it, but all in vaine; foreign.
As I hauehave before related your Relation: so I will now reflect a while vponupon your Reflection: wherein I finde,
First, matter of repetition touching the question, and meaning of it, and the occasion of the Conference and method vsed in it; whereunto I hauehave answered before, and it is very tedious to mee, to seethe againe your poore Cole-woort. foreign
Secondly, matter of additions, which are of two sorts; either personall, and these concerning
My selfe: for answer whereunto, I refer you to the appendix;
Master Salisburie, a diligent Preacher & smart Disputant, who either hath alreadie, or will shortly meete with you at Fishers folly.
Or real, to wit, certain allegations crudely taken out of Master Brerelyes Protestants Apologie, falsely so called, tractatu 2. c. 2. sect. 11. subdiuis. 3. to proue, that by the confession of Protestants, there were no Protestants before Luther.
Now, although I might iustly passe-ouer in silence those testimonies, partly, because I hauehave no particular quarrell with Master Brerely, but with your selfe; partly, because none of those allegations come neere the Outworkes, much lesse the Castle of my defence: yet I hold it not altogether vnfit to examine them particularly, that the indifferent Reader may see with what sinceritie you cite testimonies out of Protestant Writers. Euripides long ago obserued, that things appeare otherwise to those who view them afar off, them to those that view them neere at hand: …
Wee read of … Spaine, in which all the fish,Plin. nat. hist. l. 2. c. 105. Omnes aurei coloris ostendit pisces, nihil extra illam aquam caeteris differentes. whilst they swimme in the riuer, are of a golden colour▪ but when they are taken …, they change their …, nothing like themselues … like manner, these testimonies, which you truely alleadge (some you false quote) out of learned & renowned Protestants, in the Authors themselues hauehave a fa…re other appearance … aspect, then in this your abstract.
To pro…e▪ there were no Protestants before Luther, you alledge, in the first place, Luther himselfe.
Master FISHER'S reflection, sect. 2. p. 50.
First therefore▪ Luther himselfe saith, Wee dare boast, that Christ was first published by vsus. Luther. Epist. ad Argentin.
Doctor FEATLY'S Answer.
First, I answer, that Luthers words in his Epistle ad Argent. in all the editions which I could finde, are not so as Master Fisher cites them: that which I finde in that Epistle any way looking that way, is, Neque … possum me indignum fuisse vas Dei, per quod … saccursum est: Neither can I deny▪ that I (though vnworthy) hauehave been an instrument of God, by which innumerable soules hauehave been helped. A speech as modest as true, far different from that which you quote in stead thereof.
Secondly, if you can, in any Epistle ad Argentin. or elsewhere in Luthers workes, find those words, Wee dare boast, that Christ was first published by vsus; the meaning of them may bee gathered from many other places of Luther, to bee this, that in those parts of the Christian world, he was the first that publiquely made head against the Roman errors, and sent a Flag of defiance to the Antichrist of Rome, and vindicated the truth of Christs Gospel, so long with-held in vnrighteousnes.
Thirdly, Luther himselfe acknowledgeth, that hee had many fore-runners: he giueth the hands of fellowship to the Piccards, and Waldenses, and (in a manner) canonizeth I. H…s for a Saint. In his preface to Wesselus Groningensis, thus hee writeth: Helias This bites, Propheta olim, cùm Sermo Domini esset pretiosus, nec abundaret visio, occisis vniuersis pe…e Prophetis ab impissimâ Iezabele, arbitrabatur sese relictū esse solùm: …b id vitae pertaesus, optabat animam suam tolli, quod vnus impar sibi videretur ferendo oneri intolerabili impijssimi populi, et pri… cipū eius; nescius, adhuc 7000. Domino relicta et Abdiā cum 100. Prophetis latitantibus seruatū. Quae parabola, si paruis liceat cōp…nere magna, huius mei saecul… esse videtur: ego enim nescio qua dei pro…identiâ in publicum raptus, cum mōstris istis indulgentiarū et pontificiarū legum sic pugnauivt me solum esse putarem, etsi satis mihi semper f…it animi; ita vt passim … et immodesti…r accuser, praenimia qua ardeb… …iduci…: semper tamen id optani, quò tollerer et ego de medio …eorum Baaluarum, et eiuiliter m…rt…s in angulo mihi vinerem; prorsus desperans me posse quicq… promo…ere apud aereas istas frontes, et cer…ices ferreas impietatis. Sed ecce, et mihi dicitur, esse … reliquias suas saluas … in hoc tempore, et Prophetas … …bscondito seruatos. Nec hoc solùm dicitur, sed et … gaudi… ostenditur: prodij… enim Wesselus, quem … silium dicunt, Frisius Groningensis, …ir … enij, rari et ra…gni spiritus, qu… et … verè Theodidacton, foreign.quales prophet…it f…re Christianos Esayas. Neque enim ex hominibus … i… dicari potest, sicut nec ego: hic si mihi a…ea fuisset lectus, poterat hostibus meis videri, Lutherus … ex Wesselo hausisse, adeo spiritus vtrius que … vnum, &c. To the Christian Reader, Martin Luther wisheth saluation in the Lord.
The Prophet Elias the Thisbite, when the Word of the Lord was precious, and vision failed (all the Prophets (in a manner) being slaine by the most wicked Iezabel) thought that himselfe had been left alone; and therefore being wearie of his life, wished, that God would take it away from him, because being but one, he deemed himselfe vnable to beare the intolerable burden of a most wicked people & their Princes; not knowing, that God had reserued to himselfe yet 7000. and that Abdias; with a hundred other Prophets lurking in secret, were preserued aliue. Which Storie, if I may compare small things to great, seemeth to mee a perfect image or emblem of this age wherein I liue: for, I by diuine prouidence being drawne into the publique theater of the world, so fought with these monsters of Popish Indulgences and Decretals, that I thought my selfe to bee alone, although I neuer wanted courage in these combats; insomuch, that I am rather accused of the contrarie, of an ouerpoignant stile and fierie zeale: yet I alwaies wished, that God would take mee from among my Baalites, and that, being ciuilly dead, I might enioy my selfe in some corner; vtterly despairing of doing any good vponupon the brazen foreheads and iron necks of the wicked. But behold, it is told mee also (as it was told Elias) that God hath reserued vntounto himselfe a remainder (of true beleeuers) euen in this time, & that there are Prophets kept in secret: neither is this said onelyonly vntounto me, but demonstrated vntounto me also, to my great comfort: for, Wesselus Frisius Groningensis (whom they call Basil) is lately set out in print, a man of a rare and great spirit, and admirable wit, who (it appeares) was truely taught of God, as those Christians were to bee, of which Esay prophesieth. For, it cannot bee thought, that hee receyued his learning from men; as neither did I. If I had read this Author before, my enemies might hauehave thought, that I drew all out of Wesselus Store-house, his spirit & mine so perfectly agree.
And as Luther agnized Wesselus for his noble forerunner: so hee imbraced with truest affection the Waldenses (tearmed, fratres Pigardi) as appeares in his preface before the … confession.
Quanqùam fratres hi, per Bohemiam et … agentes, … annis odioso nomine Pigardi sen haretici e…schism a…ici sint traducti, visum est meo quaque testimonia, … possum illis seruire… (… quid volet … …estimonium) praesertim apud ….
Cùm esse… papista, verè et … animo istos Pigard…s fratres odiebā magno zelo Dei et religionis, nullo emnin… lucri aut gloriae studio. Deni que , cùm aliquando in aliquot libros Io. Hus impru…s incidissem, et Scripturas tam potenter et purè tractatas vidissem, vt … pere inciperem, cur talem ac tantum virū exususse… Papa et Concilium; mo… territ…, clausi codicem, suspicatus venenum sub melle l…cre, quo … infici posset: tam violentum regnabat in … papalis nominis et Concilij.
Sed post …uam, &c. ibi caepit gaudium cordis mei: et circumspectis omnibus, quos Papa pro hareticis dam…anerat, et per…iderat, pro Sancti… et Marty…b… laudabam, praeser tim quorum pia scrip…a vel confessiones potui reper…re.
Inter hos autem occurr…bant et isti fratres (quos Pigardos vocabant) iam mihi non ita inuisi, vt … erant in papistate mea. Denique offendi in eis … illud et magnum miracul…m, in …eclesiâ Pap… penè in…uditum; scilicet quòd, omissis homi… d…ctri…is, quantùm poterant, meditarentur in lege Domini die ac nocte, esseque eos in Scripturis peritos et paratos, cùm in papatis ipsimagistri nostri prorsus negligerent Scripturas.
Et gratulari tum illis tum nobis, quòd qui inter nos ipsos quoque longe fuimus, destructo nunc interstitio suspitionis, quae nobis mut…ò haeretici videbamur, facti sumus propè, et reducti simul sumus in vnum ou…le. Cōmendo igitur in Domino omnibus piis et hanc confessionem fratrum, in qua videbunt clarè, quantâ iniuriâ hactenus à Papistis fuerint damnati et vexati.
Although these brethren dwelling in Bohemia and Morauia, hauehave set forth the confession of their faith & doctrine in their owne bookes, more dexterously and learnedly, then that they need my commendation or preface: yet in as much as for these many yeeres they hauehave been branded with the odious name of Pigards, Hereticks and Schismaticks, I thought fit to afford them my best testimonie among our owne, if yet it beare any weight at all.
When I was a Papist, I truely & from my heart hated these brethren tearmed Pigards, out of a great zeale of God and Religion, and not out of any desire of glory or gain… and when … vnawares I lighted on some of the bookes of Iob… Hus, and therein obserued the Scriptures so powerfully and so purely handled, that I began to maruell why the Pope and his Councell should burne a man of such worth: presently I shut the booke; suspecting, that vnderunder hony there might lye hid some poyson, where-with my simplicitie might hauehave been infected. So strongly was I bewitched with the name of a Pope and a Councell.
But after that, &c. there began the ioy of my heart: and viewing all those whom the Pope had condemned, and put to death for Heretiques, I esteemed them as Saints & Martyrs; especially those whose godly writings and confessions I could finde, &c.
Among these, I met with those brethren whom they call Pigards, who were not now so hatefull to mee, as they had been formerly in the time of my Popery. To be briefe, I found in these men a miracle, and that a very great one, almost vnheard of in the Popish Church, to wit, that these men, leauing the doctrines of men, to the vtmost of their indeauour meditated in the Law of God day and night, and were very readie and skilfull in Scriptures; whereas in the papacie, the greatest clarkes vtterly neglect the Scriptures.
And I could not but congratulate both them & vsus, that we who before were far seuered one from another (esteeming each other as Heretiques) now by the breaking downe of the partition wall of suspition, became neere one to the other, and were together brought into one Sheepefold.
Wherefore I commend to all the seruants of God, this confession of the Brethren, whereby all men may cleerely perceiue how wrongfully they hauehave beene condemned and vexed by the Papists.
Now how worthily Martin Luther conceyued of Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague, it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul. 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum, viros catholic…s, combusserunt haeretici ipsi, & Apostatae, & Antichristi discipuli: they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom, both Catholique men, they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes, and the disciples of Antichrist. And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus, prefixed to the works of Hus, In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc, quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit: In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope, this is one, that in the Councell of Constance, hee condemned Iohn Hus, a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety: And in the second preface, Has Epistolas sancti Martyris, Iohannis Hus, &c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus: And in his third Preface, A fide dignis hominibus percepi, Imperatorem Maximilianum, de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum, Hei! hei! secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam. Et Erasmus Roter. in primis libellis (quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo) manifestè scribit, Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse. Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria. Et paulò pòst porrò, In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs (quorum ipse nonn…ll…s, eosque magnos theologos, audiui ante annos 30), fuisse … excellenter doctum, et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Concili…. Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro, incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus, prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi, quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset, cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatu… esset: …itert… inter l…gendum obstupefactu…, admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili, quam ob causam tandem ex…s esset vir tantus, in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis, &c. I hauehave heard from men of credit, that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus: Alas! alas! they did that good man wrong: and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed (lying yet by me) writeth, that indeed Iohn Hus was burned, but not conuicted. This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies, concerning Iohn Hus, that great wrong and violence was offered vntounto him. For proofe whereof, hee alleageth Doctor Sta…pritius, and Andrew Praule; and in the end, addeth moreouer, It is a thing confessed, euen by our Aduersaries themselues (some of whom, beeing great Diuines, I heard 30 yeeres agoe), that Iohn Hus was excellently learned, and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell. I my selfe, when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford, meeting with a booke of Sermons, penn'd by Iohn Hus, was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow, that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached. This book was happily kept from burning, lying hid among many other in the publique Library: in the reading whereof, I was amazed, and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be, that so great a Clarke, so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture, should bee burned.
Thus you see, how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners: to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth, as they had yelded to the Truth. And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue, how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death, was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person. Iohn Hus his words were, which are yet to bee seene, stamped in antient coyne, currant among the Hussites, Centum reuolutis annis, &c. After a hundred yeeres, you shall answer God and mee: and some affirme, that hee added, Iam Hus, that is, in the Bohemian Language, Goose: but there shall follow mee a Swan, &c. And indeed, after a hundred yeeres, that Swan appeared in the world, which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion, whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life, and purity of Doctrine.
Master FISHER.
Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus, In theol. Calu. l. 2. fol. 130. versus finem.Schlusenburg saith, It is impudencie to say, that many learned men in Germany (and the like is of other countries) before Luther, did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell.
And another of them not onelyonly saith in effect thus much,Geo. Mylli. iu Augu tanae Confessionis explic. art. 70. de Eccles. but prooueth it by this Argument, If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office, there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation. page 137. Benedict. Morgenst. tract. de Eccl. page 145.Another saith, It is ridiculous to think, that in the time before Luther, any had the purity of doctrine, and that Luther should receiue if from them, and … they from Luther; considering, saith hee, it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time, all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then C…merian darknesse, and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same, and to restore the light of true doctrine.
Doctor FEATLY'S Answer.
First, I would hauehave you to know, M. Fisher, that I hold my self no way bound to giuegive an account of eueryevery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech, no more then you will vndertake to make good eueryevery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites: such Writers of the pet…y forme, of little antiquity, and lesse learning, were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity. But I perceiue by you, M. Fisher, that (according to the Prouerb) all is fish that commeth to your net. If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them, yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away, by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they.Apologet. Regius, alledged by your owne Brerely, testifyeth most expresly the contrary: Dico fuisse ante Lutherum, verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires, coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus, nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit. I say, that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther, although this company was not agnized by the Papists, nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at, by reason of the Popish tyrannie.*Whitakerus de Eccles. cont. Bellar. controuers. secunda. Nostra Ecclesia tum fuit. At non fuit visibilis, inquit Bellarminus. Quid tum? an ideo non fuit? Nequaquam: latc…at enim tum in solitudine. Whitaker auowes Regius: Our Church was then (viz. in the Ages before Luther). But it was not visible, saith Bellarmine (to weet, in the Popish sense). What then? Will it follow, that therefore it was not at all in the world? By no meanes; for it lay hid in the Desart. O…colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses, are extant in their works. I might alledge the testimonies of Constance andaIn Apocalip. Bullinger,bIn orat de Wald. Vesembekius,cDe vera et falsa relig. l. 4. Viret,dIn his memorials of the Waldenses. Vignea…s,eEpist. 250 et. 251 et 179. Caluin,fDe viris illustrib. Beza,gIn resp. ad Camp. ratio 3. Humfrey,hHis acts and Monuments. Fox,iIn catal test. veritatis. Illyri…us, and many other Protestants of higher rank, then such sneakers as Schlusenburg, or Myllius, or Morgenst. All the former acknowledge, that the Hussites and Waldenses walked with a right foot in that way of Truth, which since Luther (blessed bee God) hath beene much more cleerely discouered, and trodden, then in former times. If Protestant Writers sway little with you, who yet could better tell then you, or M. Sweet, and such other new vpstart Iesuites, who were Luthers forerunners; learne of your ownekContra Waldens. Rainerius, andlContra Waldens. Claudius de Seissel, andmHist. Hussit. l. 1. Cocleus, andnin tabulis & alit. Lyndanus, andoHist. ciuit. Iudg. l. 3. Claudius Rubis, andpHist. Bohem. Aeneas Syluius, andqHist. Bohem. Iohn Dubranius, and rContra haeres.Alfonsus à Castro, and the Author of the Fasciculus rerum exet: and many other, that the Waldenses bore a Torch before Luther, and shewed him his way. Yea but Schlusenburg saith, It is impudencie to say, that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell. Schlusenburgs words are, Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse, multos viros eruditos in Germaniâ, priusquam prodiret Lutherus, euangelij doctrinam tenüisse; adeoque, ipsum Pellicanum, priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri, Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse. Vtenboius writes impudently, that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme, that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell, before Luther appeared; and that Pellicanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgatory, before the name of Luther was heard. For ought I know, Vtenboius is as honest a man, as Schlusenburgius: and if Schlusenburgius deny it, Vtenboius affirmeth it, yea, and (for ought is prooued to the contrary) Conradus Pellicanus also: yet that which Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master, no way helpeth your cause: for, admit there were not in Germany, yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands, as in Bohemia, France, England, &c. who, before Luther, embraced the doctrine of the Gospell.
Secondly, in Germany it selfe, there were not multi eruditi viri, many learned men; yet there might be some, for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary: therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short, neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke. His words are, Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos; Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset, Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset. Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos, qui ante Lutherum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri. Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista, causa non fuisset. If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office; If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie, there should hauehave beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation. Therefore, we cannot shew true Bishops vnderunder the Papacie, to whom Luther succeeded: for if there had beene such in the Romane Church, there had beene no cause to depart from it. What makes this testimony for you? Is it for the honor of your Church, to bee truly branded with Apostasie? to hauehave no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it? What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnderunder or in the Papacy; will it follow, that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere? It is true, Reformation presupposeth a Deformation, as a remedy presupposeth a disease; & a purgation precedent matter fit to bee purged. Though the Romane Church, or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church, was vnsound in the faith, and very corrupt and rotten; yet were there other sound members of Christs Church, in whose steps, it is well knowne, that Luther trod. What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this? Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth, that There were … orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea, therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther. Now for Benedictus Morgenst, Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra. Hee who found him for you, makes him runne the same way with*Brerely Protest. Ap…l. Sect. 11. de Fraet. orthod. Eccles. Ioachimus Camerarius, but not whither you would hauehave him. They both stand for the honor of Luther, and maintaine, that he alone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reformation, & that none ought to share with him in that dignity, in beeing the first Apostle of the reformed Churches. They will not endure, that Luther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne, but out of the Fountaine of liuing water, the Scriptures. Wicklef indeed, saith Ioachimus, was instructed by the Waldenses, and Hus by Wicklef: but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef, but was foreign, taught of himselfe out of Scriptures. This preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther. Zuinglius and Pellicanus, and Vtenboius, and your owne Alfonsus à Castro, seeme to make others as ready & forward at that time, as Luther. And indeed, whether Luther set Zuinglius, or Zuinglius Luther first a-work, or whether the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant, to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple, I hold it needlesse to define. Let Luther and Zuinglius, and many other their contemporaries and fellow-workmen in that great work, shine as so many precious stones in the foundation of the reformed Churches: Ne sit primus, nec vel imus quispiam. Will it follow, that because Luther was foreign, and did not tind his candle at another mans light, therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time, but hee? It will follow, say you, because Morgenst addeth, that. It is manifest to the whole world, that before Luther's time, all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse. And you adde also to Morgenst, fiue other corroboratory testimonies, of Caluin, Bucer, Beza, Iewell and Perkins: whereunto after I hauehave giuen a direct and particular answer, I will dismisse you.
Master FISHER.
And lest this may bee thought to hauehave beene onelyonly the conceit of Luther and Lutherans (who yet could better tell, then D. Featly, D. White, and such other new Masters) I will adde heereunto what is said, first, by(5)Caluin in l. Epist. ep. 141. Caluin, who doth acknowledge, that in this Lutheran reformation, there was made a discession or departure from all the world. Secondly, by(6)Bucer Ep. ad Epis. Hereford. Bucer, who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine. Thirdly, by Beza (7)Beza in Theol. Ep. Epist. 5.a principall Caluinist, who teacheth, that at this time, ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant; and consequently teacheth, that there was at that time no visible Church, and so if any Church at all, it was onelyonly inuisible, as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines, namely(8)Iewel, in his Apologie of the Church, cap. 4. diuis. 2. and in his defence 40. Master Iewel, who saith, The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of, when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell; and M. Perkins, (9)Perkins in his Expos. of the Creed,who saith, Wee say, that before the daies of Luther, for the space of many hundred yeeres, an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth, and that our (Protestant) Church was not visible to the world.
Doctor FEATLY.
When Caluin saith, There was a departure made from all the world; and Morgenst, That all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknes; and Perkins, that An vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the whole face of the earth; and Iewell; that Luther & Zuinglius were most excellent men sent from God, to giuegive light to the whole world: their meaning is not, that there was no light in those times in Goshen, or that there were no Abdiases, with many other Prophets lying in secret; or that there were not many thousands that neuer bowed the knee to the Romish Baal: for they all affirme the contrary in sundry places of their writings. But they take the word World, as it is vsually taken both in sacred & prophane Writers, for the greater part of the world, or at least, that part that beareth the greatest sway, and is in a manner onelyonly in voage. Their words sound according to the Tenor of those in S. Iohn; The whole world is set on wickednesse; and the like in S. Ierome, Totus mundus ingemuit se factum Arrianum; the whole world sighed, that it became Arrian. As Luther, so Caluin also acknowledgeth, that Christ hath alwaies had his floore on earth, sometimes more, sometimes lesse purged: And further, they deny not, but that before the publick and generall purging of the floore of the visible Church, from the chaffe of Romish superstitions in our daies, there were many that in sundry corners of the earth, seuered diuers heaps of wheat from the chaffe, and clensed it from darnell & tares. Among whom, were Fratres Pigardi, a remainder of the Waldenses; betweene whom, and Caluin, many kinde offices passed, as their mutuall Letters testifie, extant in Caluins works.Inter Epist. Calu. Ep. 250. Quomam, vir venerande, ante annos circiter triginta, inter humanit atem tuam, tum Argentina agentem, & fratres qui falso Pigardi vel Waldenses dicuntur, charis…imos in Domino Patres nostros sancta intercessit no…itna & familiaritas, &c. Thus one of the Preachers of the Waldenses writes to Caluin:
Reuerend in the Lord: because aboue 30 yeeres agoe, when you remained at Argentine, there was an holy league of louelove and entire friendship and familiarity betweene you and the brethren, who are falsely termed Pigards or Waldenses, our dearest Fathers in the Lord; Wee, who now hold the place of those our Fathers, (whom God hath called, almost all of them, out of this mortall life) thought fit to renew that knowledge, or rather band of Christian louelove, wherewith all the seruants of God, especially the Ministers of the Gospell, ought to be most strictly and firmely knit together.
To the former letter, Caluin returnes this courteous answer, Gratias agimus non vulgares, quòd Fratres qui vestrierga nos amoris fraternaque coniuncti…nis testes essent, et qu …si Sponsores mittere grauati non estis: eóque libentiùs offici…m hoc vest rum s…nus amplexi, qu…a ex sinceran pietatis studio manabat. Cupimus idem vicissem v…bis de propenso nostro ad fouendam sanctam vnitatem affectu persu …sum esse, &c.Epist. 251. Wee render you more then ordinary thankes, for sending the brethren vntounto vsus, who may remaine as witnesses and pledges of your louelove towards vsus, and brotherly coniunction; which kind office of yours, wee the more willingly embrace, because it flowed from a sincere louelove of true Religion. Wee desire that you will be likewise perswaded of the like affection in vsus towards you, and the great desire we hauehave to cherish this holy vnity among vsus. For, being so farre remooued one from another, and compassed round about with enemies, who take vp the greater part of the world, it is a great delight vntounto vsus to enioy yet this comfort of our dispersion, &c.
Againe, the same Caluin in his Epistles, Epist. 179. to Stanist. Carninsk, thus writeth of the Waldenses: *De vestro cum Waldensibus consensu optima quaeque spero, non modò quia sanctam vnitatem, in quam coalescunt Christi membra, Deus semper benedicere solitus est, sed quòd inter haec rudimenta, fratrum Waldensium peritiam, quam longo vsu Dominus exercuit, non vulgari adiumento vobis fore spero. Quare vobis omnibus danda est opera, vt haec pia conspiratio magis ac magis sanciatur, &c.I hope the best of your agreement with the Waldenses; not onelyonly, because God alwaies vseth to blesse the holy vnity, in which the members of Christ grow vp together, but also, because in these your rudiments and beginnings, I conceiue, that the skill and long experience of the Waldenses, will bee an extraordinary help vntounto you: wherefore all of you must doe the vttermost of your endeuours, that this holy agreement & consent betweene you, may more and more be established, &c.
Martin Bucer (whom you alleage in the next place) held the like correspondence with the Waldenses, as may be gathered from that Letter of his which hee wrote vntounto them.
Blessed be the Lord God our louing Father, who hath preserued you to this present time, in so great knowledge of his truth, and who hath now inspired you in the search thereof, hauing made you capable and fit to doe it. Behold now, what the nature of true faith is, which is, that so soone as it knowes in part any spark of the diuine light, it preserueth carefully the things that are giuen vntounto it of God. Saint Paul is an example to vsus, who in all his epistles, shewes the great care that he hath had to procure the glory of God. And doubtlesse, if wee pray with a good heart, that the name of God be sanctified, and his Kingdome may come, we shall prosecute nothing with such diligence, as the establishment of the truth where it is not, and the aduancement thereof where it is already planted. One onelyonly thing doth especially grieue mee, that our imployments at this time are such, about other affaires, that wee hauehave no leasure to answer you at large, as we desire, &c.
By the contents of this Letter, and many other passages in Bucers Works, which for breuities sake I omit, it appeares that Bucer, in calling Luther the first Apostle of the reformed Doctrine, did not thereby intend, that Luther was the first that euer preached the Doctrine of the reformed Churches; for, hee could not bee ignorant, that after Christ and his Apostles, and the Fathers for 6 or 700 yeers, Bertram, & Elfrick, & Berengarius, and Petrus Brus, and Henry of Tolous, and Dulcinus, and Arnoldus, and Lollardus, and Wicklef, and Hus, and Ierome of Prague, and many other Starres, fought in their courses against the Romish Sisera. But Bucers meaning is, that Luther was the first, who in our Age and memory, publikely and success-fully set on foot a generall Reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts: when the corrupt matter of Popish errors and superstitions long in gathering, grew now to a ripe coare, Luther was the first who openly lanced it. Luther formed no new Church, but reformed the Church hee found; and therefore cannot bee termed, The first Apostle of Protestant Doctrine; although, in a tolerable sense, hee may be stiled, The first Apostle of the happie Reformation in our daies. Luther burnisht and refined the gold of the Sanctuary, obscured with rust: he made not new gold.
In your allegation out of Beza, by suppressing the Aduerb (penè, almost), you shew your selfe, non penè, not almost, sed penitùs, altogether a falsificator. Beza's words, Epist. 5. are, Huic tum demum locum esse dicimus, cùm vel nulla, vel penè nulla est ordinaria vocatio, sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papatu. We say, that then extraordinary calling takes place, when there is either no, or almost no ordinary vocation (of Pastors), as in our time fell out in the Papacie. This (almost) you omit altogether. For Beza's opinion, touching extraordinary calling, as I doe not heere oppugne, so much lesse doe I vndertake to maintaine. We can, and hauehave prooued lawfull & ordinary calling in our Church of England, as you may see in M. Masons most accomplished Treatise of this Subject, lately reuised by him before his death, and translated into Latine, at this instant sweating vnderunder the Presse. Admit, there had beene no ordinary calling of right-beleeuing Church-men, Bishops, or Priests, when Luther did first sound his siluer Trumpet: what will you inferre thereupon? that at that time there was no visible Church? There Beza leaues you, who professeth both a visible Church in generall, consisting of members, sound and vnsound, and these more or lesse; and in particular,In his booke of worthy men. hee calleth the Waldenses, The seed of the most pure, antient, Christian Church, which was miraculously preserued in the midst of the darknes and errors, which hauehave beene hatched by Satan in these latter times. And as Beza leaues you, in this your inference, so also doth the Truth: For, although the Ship of Christ is in great danger, when erronious Pastors, like false lights, are set vp in the Watch-Towers of Sion, yet, sith our chiefe Pilot hath forewarned vsus heereof, and bid vsus take heede of false prophets and teachers, and hath left vsus a most certaine direction in his Word, which is the true Light, foreign conduct vsus to those pulchri portus, the faire Hauens in Heauen; the people of God may keepe the right way, and through Gods grace escape the quick-sands of heresie. As God bestoweth diuers gifts of the Spirit ordinarily vponupon the Clergie, so he bestoweth also where he pleaseth, Spiritum discretionis, in the Laytie, a Spirit whereby they may discerne spirits, whether they are of God or no; a Spirit, by which, trying all things, they may hold fast that is good. And if their ghostly Fathers offer them a stone for bread, Mat. 7. 9, 10.or a Serpent for fish, they will cast it away: Or if more cunningly they shall mingle error and heresie with truth, and offer them, as your Teachers did and doe, an apple with a worme in it, or a cup of wine with a dead Fly, they will take out the worm and Fly, and then eat of the one, and drink of the other. This is that which*Baltasar Praefat. in Waldens. Lydius truly obserueth, Oft-times the eares of the Auditors are purer then the tongue of the Preacher. Hee deliuers vngarbled spices, they garble it; vnsifted meale, they sift and boult it; impure milke, they straine it. In the daies of Ieremy, and much more after the death of the Prophet Malachy, vntill the birth of Christ, there were few*(I would see a Catalogue of true Teachers of the infallible faith in those times.) Doctors in Israel, that rightly expounded the Law, and taught Gods people as they ought: yet no man doubts that God had then a visible Church; as also afterwards in the time of the Arrian & Eutychian persecution, in which there were very few Bishops or Pastors vntainted with those heresies: Therefore, although we should grant you your antecedent out of Beza, that there was no ordinary vocation at that time, of pure and sincere Teachers, yet wee will barre you of your conclusion, that at that time there was no visible Church. Our English Diuines, alledged by you, affirme no such thing. Perkins saith not, that our Church was simply inuisible, but that it was not visible to the world; adding in the same place, that it lay hid vnderunder the chaffe of Popery. And the truth of this, saith hee, the Records of all Ages manifest. The same Perkins, in his Reformed Catholick, more fully explaineth his meaning, thus: Though Popery raigned and ouerspred the face of the earth, for many hundred yeeres: yet in the middest thereof, God reserued a people to himselfe, that truly worshipped him; The woman fled into the wildernesse, &c. And she still retaines a remnant of her seed, which keepe the commandement of God, and hauehave the testimony of Iesus Christ. See here how farre hee is from denying a Protestant Church extant… that he affirmeth it to hauehave growne vp and thriued, euen in the Thicket of Popery, though much ouer-shadowed and ouer-topped. Neither can you finde any flaw or cloud in that orient Ge… of our Church,Apolog. part. 4. cap. 4. Diuis. 2. Bishop Iewell, whose words are these: When in the middest of the darknesse of that Age, first beganne to spring and shine some glimmering beame of truth, vnknowne at that time, and … of; When also Martin Luther, and H…lderick Zuinglius, beeing most excellent men, euen seek from God, to giuegive light to the whole world, first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell, &c. A Diamond cannot bee cut or polished but by a Diamond: Let therefore this Iewell brighten and cleere himselfe. In the same part of the Apologie, Chap. 5. Diuis. 1. hee calleth Martin Luther, the publisher and setter forward of this doctrine (not the Author); And Chap. 14. Diuis. 1. he fully cleeres the point in difference betweene vsus, touching visible Protestants before Luther: Many … many learned and godly men, hauehave often and carefully complained, how all these things hauehave cleered … time: For, euen in the middest of that … darknesse God would yet there should bee some, who though they gaue not a cleere & bright light; yet should kindle, were it but some sparks, which men being in darknesse, might espie. And hee particularly … Hillary, Gregory, Bernard, Pauperes de Lugd…, … Bishops of Greece and Asia as also … Petrach, Sauanarolla, and others. And Chapter 15. he preuenteth a c…uill, that might hauehave bin made against these witnesses of the truth, by some ignorant persons. Neither (saith hee) can any man alleage, that these Authors were Luthers or Zuinglius Schollers: for they liued not only certaine yeeres, but also certaine Ages, …re euer Luther or Zuinglius names were heard of.
Now, I pray see, M. Fisher, what a goodly dish of fish you hauehave serued in, to furnish your Table, and let the indifferent: Reader iudge, whether you may safely trust M. Brer…ly, or wee you, in allegations, especially out of Protestant Writers; whose words either you corrupt, or adulterate their meaning, or both, as euidently appeares in all the places aboue-cited.
And thus hauehave I now at length spung'd out all the spots, which your pen hath cast on the Conference. As for personall aspersions vponupon mee, especialy, of want of grauity and patience, I hold it fittest to refell these and the like slanders by silent and patient enduring them. As you heerein take Petilian the Donatist, for your precedent of impudent railing, so I will take Saint Austen for my patterne of silent patience, and cloze vp all further Answer in his words:Lib 3. cont. …iteras Petil. cap. 11. Quid mirum, si cùm grana de areâ Domini excussa, simul & paleam intror sum trabo, iniuriam resilientis pulueris suffero? What maruell, if in sweeping the Lords floore, and seeking to gather-in graines that are flowne out, I endure a little dust? Homo sum enim de areâ Christi; palea▪ si malus; granum, si bonus; non est h…ius area v…ni…labrum lingus Petiliani: I am a man, and I know I am of Christs floore, that is, in his true visible Church; all the Papists in the world shall neuer disprooue it: If I am euill; I am chaffe; if good, I am wheat: and whether I bee the one or the other, this is my comfort, I am sure, the Iesuites tongue is not the fanne of this floore. What I hauehave written touching the visibility of Christs true Church, I (in all humility) submit to the iudgement of the true visible Church. I hope, the Truth shall suffer nothing, because of mee: and if I suffer any thing, by loose tongues or pens, because of the Truth, I will account it my Ioy & Crowne in the Day of our Lord Iesus Christ: To whose sauing grace, and boundlesse mercy, I commend all those who louelove Truth in sincerity.
foreign.
End of the text · Daniel Featley, The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net (1624)