The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net, Arguments and answers

The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net · Arguments and answers

p. 45The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the first, touching the entry into the Conference.

DOctor White, and D. Featly, beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde, and staying awhile after, had notice giuen them, that M. Fisher and M. Sweet, Iesuites, were in the next room, ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher, vnderunder his owne hand, in these words, viz.

First, Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible, and especially in the Ages going before Luther; and secondly, Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors.

This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named, and it beeing p. 46notified vntounto them, that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited, and (remaining doubtfull in Religion) desired satisfaction, especially in this point, they were perswaded to hauehave some speech with the Iesuites touching this point; the rather; because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers, and disperse them in secret: in which they vaunt, that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point.

Master Fisher his Answer.

First, any man reading this parcel, would be induced to think, that D. White & D. Featly had neuer had notice before, for what end they were inuited to dinner, or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites; but that they were on the sudden summ…ned to this Conference, without any preparation, or knowledge of the Question: which not to be so, is euidently conuinced, partly, by that which is already said, partly▪ by that which I am after to say.

Secondly, this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher, vnderunder his owne hand, had set downe the words of the Question, distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. which is not so: for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question, nor did not meane to make any more then … onelyonly p. 47entire Question, as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired.

Thirdly, he seemeth willing to perswade, that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers: which is not true.

Doctor Featly his Reply.

The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing, offendere in limine, to stumble as a man is going out a-doores, in lifting his legge ouer the threshold. You do so, M. Fisher: you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore, and (which is farre worse) you stumble at three strawes.

The first is, that (forsooth) any man reading this parcell, would beleeue, that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Conference. And what if he should beleeue so? What doth this aduātage our cause, or preiudice yours? It matters not much, how wee came to this encounter, but how we came off. Yet are there no words in the Relation, which imply any such thing, that wee came sudden or vnprouided; nay, whosoeuer reades the first Chapter, touching the occasion of the Conference, cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before, and came prouided. The truth is, for mine owne part, I knew of it two daies, and no more, before the meeting; and I excepted against the day appointed, as beeing too neere, and sudden, for a man to prepare, either to oppose or answer in so p. 48spacious and …ast a Question, … from Christ to L…ther: yet beeing ouer-intreated to be there as an Assistan… onelyonly, in the … yeelded.

The second straw you stumbled at, is, That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue, that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question. And what if the Reader did so beleeue? It is certaine, that there is a second … in your Question. And what … then had it beene, to set before the second Vtrum, the figure 2 ? Howsoeuer, there was no fault in the Protestant Rela…our, but in the Printer, who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy (?) for the figure 2. In the originall written Relation, there was no such figure infarced. The Printers tripping is not to be taken for a stumble of the Relators: nay, it is rather maruelled, that he tripped no more, beeing so hastie to … without his err…nd. And to thrust out a Relation without direction & authority of the like stamp, is that error of the Printer, Page 20. line 6. where the originall copie went thus, … againe, those of M. Fisher's side calling for …, Where are your names? D. White said, This is nothing but apparant tergiuersation, &c. The shallow Printer, not vnderstanding this passage, inuerted the sentence thus: D. White said, Where are your names? and thereby wholly peruerted the sence, D. White called not for names, but … the Popish Auditors for vnseasonably and vnciuilly p. 49calling for names, when M. Fisher was at a stand.

The third straw you stumble at, is, That the Protestant Relator seemeth to say, that the Priests and Iesuites cast out papers, &c. You say this is not true, and yet you your selfe here mention three such papers scattered by you; and I hauehave receiued a fourth, written by your man; and Sir Hamfrey Lynde hath seene a fift; and M. Walker & M. Rogers, a sixt and seuenth. Whereunto also they hauehave returned Answers; the one in print, the other in written hand. Let the Reader then iudge, whether the Protestant Relator any way ouerlashed, in charging you with the dis-spreading of such papers.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the second, touching the state of the Question to bee disputed of.

At the beginning of this Meeting, when the Disputants were set; D. Featly drew out the paper, in which the Question aboue-rehearsed was written, with the words in the Margent, viz. I will answer, that it was not; and demanded of M. Fisher, whether this were his owne hand: which page missing

p. 52Doctor Featlie's Reply.

You talke of prescribing methods and proportions to be obserued on both sides, as if wee fought vnderunder your banner, or were to receiue the law from you. Who made you dictator; and M. Sweet your Magister equitum, that you take vponupon you to enact Martiall Law, for sacred … in the truthes quarrell? Verily, if you prescribe no better lawes in this kind then those that are set downe in the Conference, and auowed in your defence, viz.

In a good Syllogisme, to answer to the conclusion; To distinguish on a proposition, and apply it to no learn; To prooue an effect alwaies by an effect, because a… effect is posterius, &c. you are fitter to bee a Law-giuer among the **Alogi, a sort of Hereticks.Alogi, then the Logicians; inter Alogos, then Logicos.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the third, touching the conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants.

M. Sweet. Before you proceed to dispute, desire, these conditions may be assented … on both sides;

p. 53First, that All bitter speeches bee forborn; Secondly, that None speak, but Disputants.

Master FISHER.

About this time, M. Sweet propounded these conditions to be obserued.

First, That all bitter speeches should be for borne.

Secondly, That nothing should be spoken or heard, …ut to the purpose. Which second he did propound, to preuent impertinent digressions.

Doctor FEATLY.

This second condition was not propounded by M. Sweet at the Conference, as is prooued in the Attestation, page 40. but is since deuised by M. Fisher, to set a faire Glosse, and colour on his and M. Sweet's miserable shifts and euasions: responsum nullum dant praeter vnicum, quod semper dant nihil ad propositum: whatsoeuer they are not able to answer to, that is with them nothing to the purpose. To the instance in fifteene nouelties of the Romish faith, M. Sweet answered, as you report, page 16. that Those things were then impertinent, and nothing to the purpose. To Sir Humfrey Lynde's motion to M. Sweet, to dispute of Transubstantiation out of Saint Austen, M. Sweet answered, That is not now to the Question. To my proofe a priori, of the Visibility p. 54of the Protestant Church. M. Sweet answereth, page 19. That is not to the Question: you ought to prooue the truth of your Church, à posteriori. That is to the Question. To giuegive some relish and taste to these vnsauory Answers of M. Sweet's, You faine a Prouiso of his, which indeede is a Procudo of your owne; That M. Sweet answered this according to law, for there was a Law (forsooth) made, That nothing should be spoken or heard, but to the purpose How those things aboue-al-leadged, were to the purpose, and touched the very▪ Apple of the eye of the Question, shall bee shewed in due place. In the meane time, let the Reader note, that M. Fisher taketh more liberty, then the fained supposititious decree of Geneu…, giueth him: for, that alloweth a man, onelyonly to lie for Gods honour; but heere M. Fisher coyneth a lie, onelyonly for M. Sweet's credit.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the fourth, touching the Inuisibility of the Romish Church for more than 500 yeeres after Christ.

Before I propound my Argument, I craue leaue in few words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse, wherewith p. 55you draw and delude many of the Ignorant and Vnlearned. You beare them in hand, that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant, before Luther; and that all the world beleeued as you doo;

That your Church hath not been onelyonly visible in all Ages, and all times, but eminently conspicuous and illustrious. Which is such a notorious vntruth, that I heer offer, before all this Company, to yeeld you the better, and acknowledge my selfe ouercomne, if you can produce out of good Authors (I will not say, any Empire or Kingdome, but) any City, Parish or Hamlet, within fiue hundred yeers next after Christ, in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named, maintaining and defending either your Trent-Creed in generall, or these points of Popery in speciall;

That there is a Treasury of Saints merits, and superaboundant satisfactions at the Pope's disposing;

That the Laity are not commanded by Christ's Institution, to receiue the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in both kinds, &c. page missing page missing p. 58then to answer them, yet certainly it is now most needfull. If you mean not to answer them, at least repeat them. This you dare not doo, for feare your disciples should take offence. You dare not pull away the curtain, lest your nakednes should be seen. You are wise in your owne generation: you knowe how to keep those in the dungeon, whom you hould in captiuity. They must not see a glimpse of light, lest they should look after more. You forbid your Captiues to reade our Relations; and in your owne, you slubber-ouer whatsoeuer toucheth you neer. You well knew, M. Fisher, that Antiquity neuer knew your drossie treasure of superaboundant satisfactions, nor your dry suppers without the Lords Cup, nor your solitary Communions without Communicants, nor your vnintelligible praiers, nor your ignorant de…otion, nor your irregular canonizing of Traitors, nor your painted flames o… Purgatory, nor your conycatching Indulgences, nor any of the like new trash. And therefore you doo well and wisely heer not to lay these blocks for your blinde children to stumble at, which neither you, nor all the Iesuits in Christendome are able to remoue.

p. 59The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the fift, concerning the parts of the Question.

D. Featly.

There are two Quaeres in your Question: First, Whether the Protestant Church were in all Ages visible; and secondly, Whether the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed, &c.

M. Fisher.

There are not two Quaeres or parts in the Question: it is but one Question.

D. White.

Where there are two Propositions, with two distinct Vtrums, there are two Questions, &c.

M. Fisher.

Conclude any thing syllogistically, D. Featly.

D. Featly.

And is a Coniunction copulatiue, and must adde somewhat to That that goes before. It is all one, as if you should expound the words of the Apostle, Prouide honest things before God and men; before God, that is, before men.

p. 60Master FISHER'S Answer.

My Question is meant to be but one entire Question. And so, to cut off all needlesse wrangling (made by D. White and D. Featly about the Aduerb Vtrùm, whether, and the Copulatiue et, and; as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing, rather than graue Diuines, who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar, especially in this case, where the sense of the speaker is plaine, and may well stand with Grammar) Master Fisher said, The question being mine, it pertaineth to mee to tell the meaning: and my meaning was onelyonly to make is one question, viz.

Whether the Protestant, Church were so visible, as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors?

Wherefore if you will dispute, you must dispute in my sense, and must conclude the affirmatiue, viz. The Protestant Church was so visible, as the Names of the professors in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

First, the parts of your question are distinguished really: for a Protestant Church may hauehave beene visible in many Ages, and yet not the names of visible Protestants liuing in those Ages now to bee produced, as your selfe confesseth in effect, page 33. line 23. Wee doe not require, that all p. 61visible mens names should bee vponupon record, nor all records produced.

Secondly, they are distinguished formally in words, whether the protestant Church, &c. And whether the Names, &c.

Thirdly, they are distinguished by points: for in the middle of your question, before the second part of it, you your selfe put a colon thus(:).

Fourthly, you distinguish them your selfe in your answer, in the written copie which I hauehave: for to the first part you answer in the margent, It was not: which answer was not, nor can bee applied to the latter part.

Either the parts of your question are distinct in sense, or out of question you propound them senslesly, whether and whether, two whethers, meaning but one. Admit the construction you giuegive of the first part, viz. Whether a Protestant Church were visible in all Ages, that is, so visible, as the Names of visible Protestants may bee shewed: what construction then will you make of the latter clause, & whether the Names may be shewed?

Is not this iust like Battus his spell in the Latin Poet;

—Subillis

Montibus, inquit, erant, et erant sub montibus illis:

Or the like of the French:

Car com…' vn' Aigle mountant an clair soleil.

Car c'estoite vn' Aigle mountant an clair soleil.

It is as if I should propound such a question: Whether Iesuites be so honest men, that they p. 62will not equiuocate, and whether they will not equiuocate?

Or whether the letters in a small print are so visible that they may bee read, and whether they may bee read?

Or whether the parts of this question are so distinguished that they are not altogether confounded, and whether they are not altogether confounded?

But you say, I am bound to dispute in your sense. What sense mean you? The sense that is to be made of your words, or the sense which you make by your mental reseruation? It seemeth you are so vsed to your Iesuitical Cabala, that you cannot in your disputing but smacke of it. I am bound to dispute with you, you say, in your sense. I grant you: am I therfore to dispute with you in your non-sence? But you say, that it is for Grammar Scholars to argue about the Aduerb Vtrum, and the copulatiue et and. Tell your great Clark, Cardinall Bellarmine, so, who wier-drawes your Sacrifice of the Masse out of the Copulatiue (et) and: And he was a Priest of the most high God, &c. and your Transubstantiation, out of the Pronoune, hoc: Hoc est Corpus, &c. & your Popes supremacie, out of the Pronoune, tibi: Dico tibi Petre, &c. Doth not Saint Austen presse Grammaticall Arguments against Cresconius the Grammarian? Nay, doth not Saint Paul himselfe presse a Grammaticall argument Against the Iewes?Gal. 3. 16. &c.Gal 3:16 Non ex seminibus, sed ex semine; Not of seedes, as of many, but of thy seed, as of one.

p. 63How many ancient and later Diuines (whose bookes you are not worthy to carry after them) hauehave substātially proued the Trinity, by a Grammatical Argument drawne frō the Plural Number, Faciamus, Let vsus make man; yea & the Trinitie in vnity, by an Argument founded vponupon the construction of a Verbe Singular with a Nowne Plurall, Elohim, that is, Dij crea…it. It is no disparagement, Master Fisher, for the greatest Clarke to remember his Grammar: But he, who so farre forgets his Grammar as you doe, deserueth to be turned back to the Grammar Schoole, and to hauehave his Garmmar-Rules better imprinted into him with a Schoole-Masters Ferula, or somewhat else. Yea, but Aquila non capit Muse a…: you are a high flyer, and therefore scorne to strike at a Flie: Yet take heed of such Flies, lest you bee choked with one of them, as your Pope Adrian was. Such dead Flies as you heere swallow, are able to corrupt and spill a whole boxe of the sweetest Oyntment.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the sixt, touching the pretended necessitie of naming Protestants in all Ages.

Master Sweet.

What need you stand so much vponupon this? If there were visible men, certainely p. 64they may be named: name your visible Protestants, and it sufficeth.

Name visible Protestants in all Ages.A Romanist standing by.

D. Featly.

It seemes you are nominals, rather then reals, you stand so much vponupon naming: will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all Ages?

If neither you,The same Romanist standing by. nor wee can name visible professors of our Religions in all Ages, for ought I know, the best way for vsus is, to be all naturall men.

D. Featly.

This is the right reason of a Naturall.

M. Sweet.

If there were visible Protestants in all Ages, certainely they may bee named.

D. Featly.

That is a non sequitur, for the reasons before named by me. What say you to a people of Africa, who, if we may beleeue Pliny, hauehave no names at all?

M. Boulton.

Yet they hauehave descriptions, and may be knowne by some periphrasis.

D. Featly.

What say you then to the Hereticks called Acephali, who are so called, because their Head & Author cannot be named, nor particularly described, p. 65yet the Author was a visible man? Are all visible mens names vponupon Record? are al the Records that were in former times, now to be produced?

Heere diuers of M. Fishers company called, Names, Names, Names.

D. Featly.

What? will nothing content you but a Buttery-book? You shall hauehave a Buttery book of names, if you will stay a while.

Master FISHER'S Answer.

To this obiection (touching the Acephali) M. Boulton answered, that those Acephali held some particular Doctrine, which did amount to the nature of a name, sufficient to distinguish them from others, insinuating heereby, that these Acephali were not Anonymi.

Further it may be answered, that it is not certaine, whether they had any particular Author: for some say, that they were a company, who in the controuersie betwixt Iohn the Bishop of Antioch, & Cyril of Alexandria, behaued themselues like Neutrals, submitting themselues to neither as to their Head. Others think, that they were certaine men, who, beeing the Fauourers of Petrus Mogus Moggus.the Heretick, did afterwards renounce him from beeing their Head, because he would not accurse the Councell of Chalcedon. Others say, p. 66that one Seueius, Bishop of Antioch, was their Author.

But howsoeuer this particular were, it doth not conclude, that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestants faith; whereof no story, nor other antient Monument maketh mention of names, or opinions, or places of aboad of any of them, or of those who opposed them, as Stories make mention of some of these circumstances both of the Acephali, and whatsoeuer other eminent professors of eueryevery true or false Religion. Wee doe not require, that all visible mens names should bee vponupon Record, nor all Records produced. For, although to prooue such a visible Church as that of our Sauiour Christ, described in Scripture, to bee spred ouer the world, a small number of visible Professors bee not sufficient, Lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae.as Saint Austen prooueth against the Donatists; yet to shew how confident wee are of our cause, wee for the present onelyonly require, that Three eminent Protestants names in all Ages, be produced out of good Authors. But they are so farre from beeing able to produce three, as they cannot name one in eueryevery Age (as is cleerely proued in the Protestants Apology) neither indeed can they abide with any patience, when they bee much pressed in this point, as appeareth by diuers who hauehave beene vrged, and in particular by D. Featly in this Conference; who hauing beene called vponupon seuerall times to produce Names, as hee had vndertaken at one time, he burst foorth into these words, set down by the Protestant Relator: What? will nothing content you but a buttery-book? you shall hauehave a buttery-book, if you will stay a while. Note (Reader) this p. 67Doctors want of grauity and patience, and what a fit title he giues to a Catalogue of names of Protestants, who indeed are more like to be… found in a Buttery-book, then in any good Record of antiquity, as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther, who, after his Apostasie, more respected the Buttery, then any Ecclesiasticall Story.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

In the Answer to this Paragraph, first, you shake hands with the Acephali: afterwards, you salute the Donatists: in the end, you take vp your lodging with the Spright of the buttery; in whose company, it seemes, you take most delight. About the yeere 480.To beginne with your Acephali. These Acephali were a shole of Hereticks, bred (as it should seeme) of the spawne of Eutyches & Dioscorus: for they held, that there was but one nature in Christ, viz. the diuine, which they affirmed to hauehave beene crucified. These differed from other Hereticks, in this especially; That whereas other Hereticks for the most part took their names from the Author and Head of their Sect, (as the Arians from Arius, the Nestorians from Nestorius, &c); these Hereticks, because their first Author could not bee certainly knowne, were termed Acephali from foreign priuatiuo, and foreign, signifying a Head; as if you would say, Head-lesse Hereticks. So that, as Pliny writes of the herb Anonymos, nomen non inueniendo inuenit, that it took it's name p. 68Anonymos, from the want of a name; so it may be truly said of these Hereticks, that they took their name from the want, or at least, ignorance of the name of their parent and first Author. Thus your Alfonso deduceth, and expoundeth their name: Haeretici Acephali dicti,Alfonsus a Castro aduersus Haereses. l. 4. sic nominati sunt, … simul insurgentes, nullus repertus est, quiillarum esse… princeps atque magister. The Hereticks tearmed Acephali, were so named, because multitudes of them rising together, there was found none, who might be their Head and Master. Neither doe you in your Answer contradict, but rather confirme this Etymology, by rehearsing diuers and sundry opinions touching their Head and Author. Which variety of opinions, and difference of Authors about him, plainely argueth, that no certainty was, or can be had of him, who he was, and much lesse what was his proper name. Wherefore, distrusting your former Answer, you adde a second, saying, Howsoeuer this particular were, it doth not conclude, that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestant faith, whereof no Story nor other antient Monument maketh … of names, or opinions, or places of aboad of any of them, … of those who opposed them. I grant, it doth not conclude so much, neither was it brought to conclude so much: it prooueth sufficiently what intended, viz. That your Question is grounded vponupon a false Supposal: it cutteth M. Sweet's reason in the hams, If there were visible Protestants in … Ages; then certainly they may bee now named. The p. 69Head and Author of the Heresie of the Acephali was, I suppose, a visible man: yet can he not now, nor, for ought appeares, could he then, when hee broched his Heresie, be named. In like manner, the 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal, and all your Ancestors descending from Noah, were certainly visible men: yet can they not now be all named; and therefore M. Sweet's Argument, ab authoritate negatiue, and à negatione vocis ad negationem rei, is a poore fallacie, fit to bee ranked with that which they wrongfully fasten on my Argument à priori, viz. petitio principij, or the begging the Question.

I wil not say, that in disputing about the Acephali, you shew your selfe foreign: but certainly in that which followeth, you shew your self foreign, else you would not so ignorantly apply Saint Austens proofes in his Book against Donatists, to disprooue our Church. For it is well knowne, that we teach with Saint Austen, that Christs visible Catholique Church is dispersed farre and wide ouer the face of the whole earth. But you are the Donatists of our Age: for, as the Donatists confined the Catholique Church of Christ, to Africa, and therein, to the Sect of Donatus: so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome, and the Popes adherents.Aug. Epist. 80. ad Hesychium. We teach with Saint Austen, Non Romanos, sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit: That God promised with an oath to Abraham, not the Romans, but all Nations for his seed. We p. 70beleeue, that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued, and Christs Sacraments administred, God calles some by ordinary meanes; and consequently there is a Christian Church (though neuer hearing of Rome, or Papall Iurisdiction) who are ordained to saluation. Wee account all that professe the name of Christ, & Doctrine of the Gospell, to be members of the visible Catholick Church; yet with this difference, some are sound members and parts, others vnsound, and these more or lesse. Wee doubt not, but Christ hath his flock vnderunder the Turk and Tartarian, and Mogol, in Asia, Africa, Europe, yea Italy, and Rome it selfe, euen in the denne of Antichrist. And therefore we are the true Catholicks, who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam, a Church truly Catholicke: and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times, who damne all sorts of Christians, saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads. What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in eueryevery Age? Although our Sauiours words are most true,Mat. 18.Matt 18 Where there are two or three gathered in my name, there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words,Exhort. ad virg. are most true, Vbi tres sunt, Ecclesia est, licèt Laici sint: Where there are three,de poe…it. there is the Church, yea though those three bee Lay-men: and, In … Ecclesia est, the Church is in one or two men: yea Alensis, and diuers among you, remembred by Tostatus, Prolog. in Euangel.affirme, that from the time of Christs p. 71suffering, vntil his resurrection, sides in sol… remansit beata Virgine, that onelyonly the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith; and consequently, that the Church subsisted for that time onelyonly in her. Yet God be blessed for it, wee need not to fly to any such defence. We shall bring into the field, pares aquilas, nay, plures aquilas, more ensignes and banners then you, yea incomparably more, for the first and best Ages: and if you exceed vsus in the latter, I wish you to remember, that in time, in liquors, the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome: and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs.

Yea, but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages, as we cannot name one in eueryevery age. How proue you this? Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand. A beggerly Rapsodist, whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues, and the ragges that remaine, as I am informed, will be shortly by another puld away. Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement, and more integrity then our worthy Morton, now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield, hath prooued him to be: yet beeing a knowne Papist, to alleage meerely his work and words, to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe; and therefore you did well in this place, to knock at the Buttery-dore.

And heere I intreat the Reader to note, how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite. In all the other passages of his Book, there is nothing p. 72that pretends to wit or mirth: but heer he is very pleasant, now his dull wit is whetted: he was not able in all the Conference, nor since in his Answer, to send out such a flash. Will you know the reason? The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him, and thus he diuines; The Protestants cannot abide with any patience, when they bee much pressed in this poynt, as appeareth by diuers that hauehave been vrged, and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference, who hauing been called vponupon to produce Names, burst forth, &c.

It is true, I burst forth, not into a passion, as you would make the Reader beleeue, but into a laughter, as did the rest of the company: neither did I by any gesture or speech, discouer my impatience, but your folly, who, when I alledged you reasons and testimonies, were not content with them, but called for emptie names, &c. And what was this, but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book; which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie? If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine, & surprized your iudgement, you might hauehave vnderstood, & plainly perceiued, that I cō pared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith, to a Buttery-book; but such a Catalogue as you then required, and you vsually bring, to proue the visiblity of your church, viz. a companie of names, and nothing else; testes sine testimonijs, witnesses deposing nothing for you. And, may not such p. 73emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to Butterie-books? Note, Reader, say you, what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants; who, indeed, are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke, then any good Record of Antiquitie, as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther; who, after his apostasie, more respected the Butterie, then any ecclesiasticall storie.

I maruell not, that you, Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry, and the Blacke-gard of Rome, hauehave a sharpe tooth against Luther; who, by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences, hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery, and baked for the Popes Kitchin. Certainly, if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with, hee did but hold that which hee got among you: for, after hee for sooke Sodom (which you Apostataes call apostasie) hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers, and so sharpely inueighed against them, that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him; That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him, yet hee could not but confesse, that hee was much too blame in two things; that hee presumed to touch the**Both being No…me ta… gere. Popes Crowne, and the Monkes bellie. Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities, strike him out of your Butterie-booke, and put Father Parsons in his place, the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion, or religious equiuocation, because, good man, his name was p. 74strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford; and hee expeld, for falsifying the Butterie-booke, and thereby cozening, and purloining the Students of that Colledge.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the seauenth, touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori, and à posteriori.

Doctor Featly.

That Church, whose faith is eternall, is so visible, that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall: Ergo.

Master Fisher.

Faith eternall? Who euer heard of faith eternall? Saint Paul saith, that faith ceaseth.

Doctor Featly.

You hauehave a purpose, Master Fisher, to cauill: you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall, to wit, that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it, till this present, and shall continue p. 75till his second Comming. The Church which houldeth this faith, you beleeue, shal be so visible, that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages.

But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith: Ergo.

Master Fisher.

Your Argument is a fallacie, called, Petitio principii.

Doctor Featly.

A demonstration à causa, or à priori, is not Petitio principij.

But such is my Argument: Ergo.

Is it not a sounder Argument, to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith, then (as you do) the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors? Visible professors argue not a right faith. Heretikes, Mahumetanes, and Gentiles, hauehave visible professors of their impieties: yet will it not hence follow, that they hauehave a right beliefe. On the contrary, we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture, that the Church which maintaineth the true faith, shall p. 76hauehave alwaies professors, more or lesse visible.

Master Sweet.

You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori, for that is to the question, and not à priori.

Doctor Featly.

Shall you prescribe me my weapons? Is not an Argument à priori, better then an Argument à posteriori? This is, as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife, and not with a sword or dagger. I will vse what weapous I list: take you what buckler you can.

Master Fisher.

A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue, than à priori.

Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning, in preferring a demonstration à posteriori, A Protestant standing by.before that which proceedeth à priori. Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause, better then of the cause by the effect?

In this place, or vponupon the like occasion againe offered, neerer the end of the disputation, Master Sweet replied.

M. Sweet.

This is to diuert the question. The question is not now, Whether our faith or p. 77yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith, but the question now is of the effect, to wit, the visibilitie of your Church, which you ought to proue out of good Authors.

Doctor Featly.

May not a man proue the effect by the cause? Is there no other meanes to proue the effect, but by naming men, and producing authors for it?

Master Sweet.

An effect is posterius; the question is about an effect: therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori.

Doctor Featly.

What a reason is this? May not an effect bee prooued by his cause? Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect? or à posteriori, because an effect is posterius?

Master FISHER'S Answer.

Thus farre the Relator, who hath heere added much more then was said: and in particular, those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to hauehave said, viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue, then à priori, Master Fisher did not speake: perhaps hee might say, That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vsus, then à priori; not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori, before that which is à priori; but that such a proofe à p. 78posteriori, as hee in this present question required, and as the question it selfe exacted, would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men, which is the true Church, then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori, to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church, as shall be shewed when need is, heereafter. At this present, it may suffie… say, to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility, that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith, yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church. For, supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith (according to the Protestants Relator) viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture, that the Church which maintaineth the true faith, shall hauehave alwaies professors more or lesse visible, and (as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers, giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting) so visible, as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors; supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker, contr. Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets, of the propagation, amplitude, and glorie of the Church; is most cleerly witnessed by Histories; and supposing lastly, out of Doctor Iohn White, in his way, p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vsus, but by Histories. Supposing all this (I say), it is most apparant, that if there cannot bee produced (as there cannot) Names of Protestants, or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages, out of Histories, to whom Gods promises agree, besides those which are knowne Roman p. 79Catholiques: not Protestants, nor any other but onelyonly the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith; and of which, al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

I maruel not, M. Fisher, that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds: for, you hauehave much adoo, with all your strength and skil, to get yourself out of the mire. M. Sweet, since he left our Vniuersities, and was metriculated into your Society, seemes (to speak in our Academicall Phrase) to hauehave resumed gradum Simeonis, and to hauehave proceeded backward: for, whatsoeuer truth, in Logick or Philosophy, hee had learned in our Schools, he hath learned to vnlearn in yours. It seemeth, he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was; who took double pay of his scholars, for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others. Hee was taught in our Schools, that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated, Arist. analy…. poster. l. 1. c. 2but by the cause: for, Scire, est causam scire propter quam, &c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus, foreign, a scientificall Syllogism, proceeding of those things that are former in nature, and more knowne, and causes of the conclusion. All this he hath vnlearned, and will needs go about to perswade vsus, that An effect, because it is posterius, must needs be proued by an effect; and by the same reason, that effect, by another effect; and page missing page missing p. 82Thirdly, the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie, or mystery of iniquity in it; which is not the Church, but a preualent and predominant faction in it. The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member (though a sick and weak one) of the Catholique visible Church; and consequently, to hauehave some part in the gracious promises made to the Church, in the Gospell: but the Papacy, or that predominant faction, is no member, but a botch or an aposteme in the Church; to which none of those promises belong, yet many prophesies are cleerly fulfilled in it.

First, 1. Tim. 1. 4. Now, the Spirit speaketh expresly, that In the later times some shall depart from the faith, giuing heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of diuels, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath appointed to be receiued with thanksgiuing. This Prophesie hath been fulfild in the Papacy euer since Pope Hildebrand's time;Auent. annal. Boior. l. 5. edit Basil. ad Pern. p 448. in which, as Auentin… reports, the people in some places trod vnderunder foot the Hoasts that were consecrated by married Priests: Tales enim non esse sacerdotes, neque sacrificare, Hildebrandus docebat: for, Hildebrand taught, that such were no Priests. And again, Maritos ab vxoribus separat, scorta, pudicis coniugibus: stuprà, incestus, adulteri…, casto praefert matrimonio: Hee seuered men from their wiues: he preferred harlots before married wiues; fornication, adultery, and incest, before p. 83chaste marriage. And likewise in the Papacy that part of the Prophesie is fulfilled, touching the forbidding of certain meats; as for example, flesh, and egges, and white meats, and the like, and that for conscience sake, and vnderunder paine of deadly sin, and accounting such abstinence meritorious.

Secondly, that Prophesie in 2. Thes. 2. 9. Comming, after the power of Satan, in all power of signes and lying wonders, is daily fulfilled in the Papacy, and no where else. See their Legends, old and new.

Thirdly, that Prophesie, 2. Pet. 2. 18. They allure by the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonnesse, &c. is fulfilled in the Papacy, which permitteth publick Stews, I might say, alloweth, because who keep those houses, do therefore pay a pension to the Pope.

Fourthly, that Prophesie, Iude 16. speaking great swelling words of vanity, is fulfilled in the Papacy; which teacheth, that the Church of Rome is the Mother and Queen of all Churches; that the Pope cannot erre; that hee is aboue the Law of God; that those who adhere to him, can more than merit heauen: they can supererrogate.

Fiftly, that Prophesie, 2 Pet. 2. 3. and Apoc. 18. 3. The Merchants of the earth are waxed rich, through the abundance of her delicacies. Through couetousnesse, shall they with feigned words make Merchandize of you, and the like in the Apoc. is fulfilled in the Papacie, which draweth an infinite p. 84treasure, by the Merchandize of pardons and indulgences for releasing soules out of Purgatory.

Sixtly, that Prophesie, 2. Thes. 2. 4. Hee as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himselfe that hee is God, is verified in the Papacie, which giueth the Pope the stile of Lord God, Head of the Church, Lyon of the Tribe of Iuda, &c. and power to dispence with breach of oathes, and incestuous marriages, &c.

Seuenthly, that Prophesie, 2. Thes. 2. 7. The mystery of iniquity doth already worke: onelyonly hee who … letteth, will let, vntill he be taken out of the way, and … shall that wicked man be reuealed. This I say, according to the interpretation of the Fathers, Ter…l and Chrysostome, De Resurrectione.is fulfilled in the Papacie. Tertullian saith Romani imperij absessi…, in decem Reges diuisa, Antichristum superinducit: The decay of the Romane Empire, diuided into … Kings,Homil. in 2. Thes. shall bee the bringing in of Antichrist. Chrysostome giueth some more light, saying, When the Romane Empire shall be taken away,foreign. then hee shall come. Now all the world seeth, that the Papacie is built vponupon the ruines of the Romane Empire, and at this day possesseth the seat thereof.

Eightthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 9. 3. & 7▪ There came out of the smoke Locusts vponupon the earth, &c. and on their heads, were (as it were) Crownes, &c. agreeth to your swarmes of Monks and Friers: and one of your own Expositors p. 85interpreteth their Crownes, the round circle vponupon your shauelings head, like vntounto a Crowne.

Ninthly, That Prophesie, Reuel. 13. 11. And I beheld another Beast comming vp out of the earth, and he had two hornes like a Lamb, and he spake as a Dragon, and hee exerciseth all the power of the first Beast, &c. agreeth to the Papacie and Pope, who resembleth Christ, whose Vicar hee calleth himselfe, and yet carrieth himselfe like a Dragon in the Church, and he exerciseth also the power of the first Beast, to weet, the Romane Empire, described in the first verse, by seuen heads and ten hornes, because, as the first Beast, the Romane Empire, by power and temporal authority, so the Pope, by policie and spirituall iurisdiction, ruleth ouer a great part of the world.

Tenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 13. 18. Let him that hath vnderstanding, count the number of the Beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. agreeth to the Pope, as I shewed before out of Irenaeus. L. 5. aduersu… Haeres. c. 30.foreign nomen habet 666. et valdè verisimile est, et nouissimum regnum hoc habet vocabulum: Latini enim sunt qui nunc regnant: that is, that name Latinus hath in it these numerall letters, which make vp 666. and this is very like to be the name of the Beast: the last Kingdome hath this name, for they are Latines who now rule. Arethas agreeth with Irenaeus in iudgement, as Feuer dentius himselfe noteth.

Eleuenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 3. I saw p. 86a woman sit vponupon a scarlet-coloured Beast, full of names of blasphemie, hauing seuen heads and ten horns, and verse 9, The seuen heads are seuen hils, on which the woman sitteth. and verse 18, The woman is the City which reig…eth ouer the Kings of the earth, agreeth with the Papacy, as Saint Ierom teacheth vsus.

Twelfthly,Epist. 17. ad Eustochium, c. 7. et l. 2. aduer. Iouinianum. that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 4. The woman was araied in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearles, hauing a golden cup in her hand, full of abominations and silthinesse of her fornication: & supra, verse 2. With whom the Kings of the earth hauehave committed fornication, and the inhabiters of the earth hauehave been made drunk with the wine of her fornication, agreeth to the Papacy, which is set forth in most pompous manner, and enticeth the Kings and people of the earth to idolatry, which is spirituall fornication.

Thirteenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 6. And I saw the woman drunken with the bloud of the Saints; and with the bloud of the Martyrs of Iesus, agreeth to the Papacy or Romish Synagogue, which hath spilt the bloud of many thousand protestant Martyrs, since the 1000 yeer; in w^th, Satan was let loose, vnderunder the name of Waldensian and Albigēsian hereticks, & the like names of reproach.

Fourteenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 16. 17. And the tenne horns shall hate the Whore, &c. for, God put in their hearts, to giuegive their Kingdome to the Beast, till the Word of God be fulfilled, agreeth to the Pope and Papacy; to which, the greater part of the Kings of the earth, after a sort, gaue their p. 87Kingdomes, by submitting themselues, and subiecting their Kingdomes to the Antichristian Yoke. But now (God bee blessed) diuers Kings and States, whose eies God hath anointed with the eyesalue of the Spirit, hauehave discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon, and begin to hate her, and make her desolate: and wee doubt not, but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them, and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie, by stripping her naked, and eating her flesh, and burning her with fire.

Now to sharpen my weapons a little vponupon M. Fisher's Whetstone, Confingant tale quid Haeretici: confingant tale quid Papistae: Let the Papists feine some such like thing: let them deuise, if they can, any Protestant Church, or any other society or person in the world, in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described, are so conspicuously to bee seen, as in the Romish Synagogue, and the Head thereof, and then I will confesse, I hauehave spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters: but, till they hauehave brought some man, State, Society or Church in the world, in whom the former marks are more visible, than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head, I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man, who said pleasantly, that, If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist, he had very ill luck: for, if there should be a proclamation or warrant, to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse, p. 88without all question, the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the eightth, touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church, by the eternity and immutability of faith.

Doctor Featly.

That Church, whose faith is eternall, perpetuall, and vnchanged, is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be, and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall, perpetuall, and vnchanged:

Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible, as the Catholick Church ought to be, and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be.

M. Fisher.

I distinguish the Maior. That Church, whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged, so as the names can be shewed, is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be, and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be, I grant it.

p. 89That Church, whose faith is perpetuall, and vnchanged, yet so, as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages, is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be, and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee, I deny it. To the Minor I apply the like distinction, and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner.

Doctor Featly.

What? Answer you to the conclusion also? This is a straine of new Logicke.

Master FISHER'S Answer.

This Argument, as it is set downe, is so far from being a demonstration (whose propertie is, To conuince the vnderstanding) as it is not a probable or morall perswasion: for, I am verily perswaded, that no wise man (not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions) will or can bee so much as morally conuinced, or in any sort probably perswaded by it, that Protestants bee the true visible Church, more then a man (in case of doubt) can be by the like Argument, which a man may make, to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of, as any in all the parish, thus:

Those who are in heart true honest men, are as well spoken of, as any in all the parish.

But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men: Ergo.

p. 90As this proofe is not able to make any man, not partially affected, to beleeue these men to be well spoken of, or to bee honest-men: so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church, or to hauehave the true faith.

Secondly, if the terme, That Church, bee vnderstood onelyonly of a particular Church (as for example, the Church of England) it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration, as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme, according to any of the vsual moods, Barbara Caelarent, &c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee, then both Maior and Minor are false: and so it cannot bee a demonstration, whose propertie is, To consist of most certainly true propositions. The Maior in this latter sense is false, for that there may be a Church or companie, who may hauehave inward faith, eternall, and vnchanged (as for example, a Church of Angels) who, for want of visible profession, are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be. The Minor is false also: for, the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith, neither is that faith they hauehave, vnchanged; but so often changed, and so much subiect to change, as one may say (as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants) What they hould this yeere, I doe in some sort know: but what they will hould next yeere, I doe not knowe. Which is true, in regard they hauehave no certaine and infallible rule, sufficient to preserue them from change. But if Doctor Featly shall say, that hee neither meant the tearme, That Church, in either of the aforesaid senses, but meant to p. 91signifie by it, That one, holy, Catholique, and Apostolique Church, which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to hauehave perpetuall vnchanged faith, and also to bee perpetually visible, then indeed the Maior is true; but the Minor is most false: and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration; especially, when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius, viz. the visibilitie (which is easily knowne) by the truth of Doctrine (which is more hard to be knowne) especially by onelyonly Scripture. Of the sense whereof (according to Protestants, who say, The whole Church may erre) no particular man can bee infallibly sure: for if the whole Church or companie (to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth, may erre, then much more may euerie particular man erre: and consequently, no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture.

Thirdly, this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question; for in asking which is the true visible Church, or congregation of the true faithfull, wee aske, at least vertually, which is the true faith: in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith: yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church, that of it, being first knowne by other marks, wee may learne what is the true faith in all points, in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith.

Fourthly, although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church, yet inward faith alone, without some outward profession, by which it is made visible or sensible, doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church.

p. 92Let D. Featly looke back vponupon his Argument, and tell vsus what Academicall learning taught him to call it, A demonstration à priori.

Doctor FEATLY's Reply.

I know, diuers learned men hauehave beene of the opinion, that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnderunder the same roofe, with Tullies Orator, and Xenophons Prince, & Castilians Courtier, namely, Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia, extra anni solisque vias. To vndertake to make a demonstration, consisting ex veris, primis, immediatis, prioribus, notioribus causis conclusionis, is all one, saith Ludouicus Viues, as if to cure a most dangerous disease, a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples; the first whereof is found in India; the second, amongst the Ceres; the third, in the Riphean Hilles; and the fourth, in the nest of a Phenix. If that demonstration which they call potissima, the soueraigne demonstration, and non par…iell, containing the quintessence of al necessarie proofe (consisting of all tearmes reciprocall, and all propositions inabled, and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie, so called, foreign, & foreign, de omni, per se, et quatenus ipsum) were any where in vse, it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks, the most certaine Science, and fullest of euident demonstrations: but Pererius the Iesuite, and others with him, vndertake to prooue, that the Mathematicians vse p. 93no such demonstrations: and therfore many Logicians and Philosophers conclude, that such absolute demonstrations, exalted to the highest degree of necessity, presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding, are meere imaginary speculations. Let the Philosophers and Logicians, among themselues, end this controuersie. I will pronounce sentence peremptorily on neither side. But setting aside that Idea of demonstration, and speaking of such demonstrations à priori, or à causâ, as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuinity, I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration (as demonstrations go), current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick.

The Church holding the perpetuall faith, grounded on the eternall Gospell, hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith.

The true Church of Christ holdeth the perpetuall faith, grounded on the eternall Gospell:

Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith, &c.

For the Maior or first proposition, it is partly grounded vponupon Christs promises rehearsed before, in the setting downe of the state of the Question, touching the Visibility of the Church, assertion the fourth; and partly vponupon that Text of the**Rom. 10. 10.Rom 10:10 Apostle, With the hart man beleeueth vntounto righteousnesse: and with the tongue, confession is made vntounto saluation.

The Minor or assumption is most necessarily p. 94true, because this eternall faith is the formall cause, constituting and making the true Church; for,Gasp. Lauren. De public, disputat. as Laurentius rightly argueth, Homines non constituunt Ecclesiam, quat…nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei, Romani &c. sedquatenus sunt fideles: ergo fides & doctrina fidei, est causa formalis & interna Ecclesiae, et per eam Ecclesia constituitur, et per eandem dignoscitur: Men make not the Church, simply as they are Europeans, or Romanes, or Africans, or Britans, or the like, but as they are of the faithfull, or holding the faith: therefore, faith and the Doctrine thereof, is the formall and internall cause of the Church, and by it the Church is made a Church, and distinguished from all other societies. Heere then you hauehave the confession of visible men to saluation, or the Visibility of professors of the sauing faith: a proper attribute, or foreign, demonstrated of the proper subiect, the true Church, by the proper and neerest cause, the eternity of faith: and what more is to be required in a true demonstration, à priori? You will say, this demonstrateth, that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible, but not that the Protestant Church. I reply, either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church, or not: if it be supposed to bee the true Church, then, hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the true Church, I hauehave consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church; if this bee not to bee supposed nor granted, then you should hauehave primarily p. 95denied this, and put vsus to the proofe of it; which beeing prooued, would inferre the Visibility: but this you did not, and (I think) durst not in the Conference, for feare you should hauehave beene presently conuinced; yet now, since the Conference, you are growne so hardy as to deny it, and therefore thus I proue it.

A Church, holding & professing entirely the perpetuall faith, needfull to saluation, is a true Church.

The Protestant Church holdeth and professeth entirely the perpetuall faith, &c.

Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur.

The Maior is confessed of all sides, and must be so, because there is no saluation without the Church: where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed, there must needs bee the Church.

The Minor or second proposition is thus confirmed:

The Primitiue Catholique faith,Iud. 3. Reu. 14. 6.Judg 3Rev 14:6 once giuen to the Saints, is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel.

But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth, is the Primitiue Catholick faith, once giuen to the Saints:

Therefore, the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth, is the perpetuall faith, &c.

The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoubted truth.

The Assumption is thus confirmed:

The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures, p. 96contained in the three Creeds; The Apostles Creed, the Nicen Creed, and the Creed of Athanasius and the foure first generall Councels, is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints.

The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures, and contained in the three Creeds, and foure Councels aboue-named:

Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primitiue Catholique faith, once giuen to the Saints.

In this last Syllogisme, the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels.

The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies.

First, by the publique profession, and practice of the Church of England, and other Protestant Churches.

Secondly, by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith, out of the principles aboue-named.

Thirdly, by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe.

And first, it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions, or hauehave obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches, that the Protestant Doctrine is, that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued, vnderunder paine of eternall damnation, which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures, or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them. All the Protestant p. 97Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-named: and for the foure first generall Councels, there is no Protestant, who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood, if hee be cald thereunto.

Secondly, there is no particular positiue Article of the Protestant faith, which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures. Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance, where and when they will; we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field. On the contrarie, besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference, there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church, which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture: & therefore, according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques,Irenaeus aduers. Haeres. l. 3 c. 2. Cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum, quasi non rectè habeant, neque sint ex authoritate, & quia variè sunt dictae et quia nō possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionē, nō enim per literas traditā illam, sed per viuam vocē: When they are conuinced by Scripture, they fall on accusing the Scriptures thēselues, as if they were not as they ought to be, or were not of authoritie, and that they are variously or ambiguously vttered, and that out of them the truth cānot be found, by those who are ignorant of tradition; for that it (viz. the truth) was not deliuered by letters, but by word of mouth. Is not this in part your plea at this day, that the scriptures are ful of ambiguities; that they receyue countenance & whole authority quoad nos, p. 98from the Church; that the written Word, without vnwritten traditions, is not sufficient.

Thirdly, there is no positiue Article of our faith, which you your selues, or the learnedst among you doe not hold and beleeue as Catholique: therefore wee are on a sure ground, euen by your owne confession.

To instance in most of the principall Articles.

First, wee beleeue the Canonicall Scripture to be the Word of God: you beleeue them also to bee so, but adde vntounto them the Apocrypha.

Secondly, wee beleeue the Originals of the two Testaments, in Hebrew and Greek, to bee authenticall, and of vndoubted authoritie: you (I hope) beleeue so too; but you adde, that the vulgar Latin Translation is authenticall also.

Thirdly, wee beleeue the written Word of God to bee the ground of faith: you beleeue so, but adde thereunto the vnwritten word.

Fourthly, we beleeue, that Christ is the Head of his Church: you beleeue so likewise, but adde vntounto him a visible Head, the Pope.

Fiftly, we beleeue, that there are two places; Heauen for them that shall bee saued, and Hell for them that shall bee damned: you beleeue so too, but adde thereunto other places more, Purgatorie, Limbus patrum, and Limbus infantum.

Sixtly, wee beleeue, that the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth: you beleeue so too; but, you adde, that hee may bee analogically and relatiuely worshipped by Images.

p. 99Seuenthly, we beleeue▪ that we ought to call vponupon God: you beleeue so too; but adde heereunto, that you may call vponupon Saints.

Eightthly, we beleeue, that Christ is our Mediator, both of redemption and intercession: you beleeue so too, but you adde to him Angels and Saints, vponupon whose intercession and merits you in part relie.

Ninthly, we beleeue; that the Saints departed beare most ardent affection to the Saints liuing vponupon earth, and pray in generall for the Church militant: you beleeue so too; but adde, that they hauehave knowledge of our particular necessities, and pray to God in speciall for vsus.

Tenthly, we beleeue, that Christ hath instituted two Sacraments in his Church; Baptisme, and the Eucharist: you beleeue so too, but adde to them fiue other; Matrimonie, Penance, Ordination, Confirmation, and Extreme Vnction.

Eleuenthly, we beleeue, that grace is annexed to the Sacraments in such sort, that all those who worthily receiue them, participate also of sanctifying grace: you beleeue so too; but adde, that the Sacraments conferre this grace ex opere operato (a worse Solecism in Diuinity, than in Grammar), and that God is tied vntounto them; so that all children, dying without Baptism, are necessarily damned.

Twelfthly, wee beleeue, that the intention of the Minister is requisite to the right administration of the Sacrament: you beleeue so too; but p. 100you adde, that the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vponupon the intention of the Minister.

Thirteenthly, we beleeue, that in the Eucharist the worthy Communicant really partaketh of Christ's Body: you beleeue so too; but adde, that Christ is receiued orally and carnally vnderunder certain Accidents, the elements beeing transubstantiated.

Foureteenthly, we beleeue, that we are iustified and saued by the merits & Passion of Christ: you beleeue so too, but adde thereunto your owne merits and satisfaction.

Fifteenthly, we beleeue, that we ought to pray for all the members of Christs militant Church vponupon earth: you beleeue so too; but adde therunto, that wee may and ought to pray for the Dead also.

Sixteenthly, we beleeue and receiue the three Creeds; the Apostles, the Nicene, and that of Athanasius, and the foure generall Councels: you beleeue them also, but adde a fourth Creed, viz. the twelue new Articles coined by the Pope, and annexed to the Councell of Trent.

Thus you see how the Articles of our beleefe are drawne out of your owne confessions. That which wee hold for matter of faith necessary to saluation, you (and, in a manner, all the Christians in the world) hold as we. And therefore our doctrine is Catholique, according to Vincentius Rule, quòd ab omnibus, quòd vbique, quòd semper: whereas your additions to the Catholique faith, p. 101were neuer maintained, neither by all Christians in any Age, nor by any Christians in all Ages. Neither you, nor all the Papists in the world, are able to proue any one point of your Trent-faith, wherein you differ from vsus, to be Catholique.

And now let vsus hear your Paralogisms against my demonstration.

Obiect. 1. First, you say, it conuinceth not the vnderstanding, and therefore is no demonstration.

Answer. This obiection of yours sheweth, that you need to be informed in your vnderstanding, how a demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding. It is not the property of a demonstration, actually to conuince the vnderstanding, but potentially or vertually. The meaning of this Proposition, A demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding, is this; that A demonstration hath in it power and strength to inforce the vnderstanding of any intelligent man, to assent to the conclusion, the premises beeing before apprehended by him: and eueryevery demonstration is a Syllogisme: and eueryevery Syllogisme proceedeth ex quibusdam positis. To illustrate this by that vsuall example of the eclipse of the Moon; which the Astronomers demonstrate by the cause, to weet, the interposition of the earth between the Sun and the Moon. Before this demonstration will conuince the vnderstanding of any man, he must first hauehave the tearms expounded vntounto him: afterwards he must be taught, that the Moon hath not light of p. 102her self, but receiueth it from the Sunne; thirdly, that the Sunne casteth his light by right lines. Fourthly, it must be shewed how, in such points, called by Astronomers, Caput & cauda Draconis, the Sunne and Moone are diametrally opposed: whereby it comes to passe, that, by the interposition of the earth, the Moon is debarred from receiuing light by the Sunne-beames. And thus in the end, the vnderstanding is conuinced by this demonstration.

That which is hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne, by the interposition of the earth, is eclipsed.

But the Moon, in the points aboue-named, viz. the head and taile of the Dragon, is alwaies hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne, by the interposition of the earth:

Ergo the Moon alwaies in those points is eclipsed.

Aquinas sheweth, that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration, but onelyonly the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging. Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding, by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme; but, the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises, it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion: In like manner, I grant, that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince p. 103a man either vtterly ignorant, or in error, as I feare you are, to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church. But if, as I enforced you to assent to the Maior, so you would hauehave but staied, and suffred mee to inforce the Minor, will you, nill you, you should hauehave beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion.

But say you, in your worthy witty instance, This Argument doth no more perswade a man, that the Protestants are the true visible Church, then a man, in case of doubt, can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make, to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus:

Those who are in heart honest men, are as well spoken of as any in all the parish, &c.

Good Sir, let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill: for the whirling about of the sailes, wrought very much vponupon your braine, as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell. Had not you had a whimpsy in your head, you would neuer hauehave set this your Paralogisme, as a Parallel to my demonstration. In my demonstration, the Maior, rightly vnderstood, is vndoubtedly true, and de fide, as your selfe confesse, page 23. The Scripture doth shew, the holy, Catholique and Apostolique Church, both to hauehave perpetuall vnchanged faith, and also to bee perpe…tually visible. But in your Syllogisme, the Maior is apparantly false. If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of, how can the Apostles words stand, Sine p. 104per famam,2. Cor. 6. 8.2 Cor 6:8 siue per infamiam, either by good report, or by euill report, &c? Nay, how can the words of truth it selfe be verified,Mat. 5. 11.Matt 5:11 Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake? Againe, perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof: but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame, but honest and vertuous actions. It is not the inward burning, but the outward shining of our light before men, which maketh men to see our good works, and thereby glorifie God in vsus for them. Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme, wee hauehave the better: and therfore, this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will hauehave it, A demonstration, but with this addition of Fishers folly. To be an honest man in heart, is both prius naturâ, and morally eligibilius, in nature before, and more desireable, then to be well spoken of. Mallem de me dicas, Vir bonus est, ergo bonae famae, quàmè contra. By this very argument, the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid, and foreign, a secundary proofe, and a common accident to the truth of faith. And as wee therefore enquire of fame, that we may know a mans vertue: so wee therefore enquire of the true Church, as your selfe confesse, Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith. We seeke a guide, that we may finde the way; and not the way, that wee may finde a guide. If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame, (put case he liued in a Desart) I will not then set it vponupon the triall of fame: p. 105but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument, I would produce fame. In like manner, if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith, then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof, I would hold it as you doe, a point of principall moment, to enquire of the Visibility of professors: but sith we hauehave another more easie, direct, and infallible meanes to prooue it, viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures; you shall giuegive me leaue, M. Fisher, rather to follow this Method generally prescribed, and vsed by the Antient Fathers, as I hauehave shewed before, Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you.Touching the Visibility of the Church. Assertion 7.

Obiect. 2. Secondly, you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises. The Maior you say is false, for that there may bee a Church or company, who may hauehave inward faith, eternall and vnchanged; as for example, a Church of Angels, &c. An instance as wide from the mark, as the heauen is distant from the earth. Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation. Are Angels visible? Are all …orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels? Doe you hold it for a good interpretation, If thy brother offend thee, tell the Church; that is, tell the Angels, or a Church of Angels? Although Christ bee the Head of Angels, and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense; yet I neuer p. 106read of a Church of Angels. Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes, Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaeda…m, non Angelorum, sed hominum. The Church is a Society or company, not of Angels, but of men. If I should hauehave brought such an Argument, to proue the militant Church vponupon earth (of which we disputed) to bee inuisible, because the Angels are inuisible; I should hauehave suspected my selfe, to hauehave beene as wise as hee that adored, for a Relique, one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings.

Erubuit, salua res est, you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer: and therfore you insist not vponupon it, but passe to the Minor, burdening it with falshood; saying, The Protestants faith is not vnchanged, but so often changed, and so much subiect to change, as one may say, as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants, What they hold this yeere, I doe in some sort know, but what they will hold next yeere▪ I doe not know. I can requite you with a like Apophthegme:

The Popish faith is so subiect to change, that wee may say of it, as a learned person in France once said, That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets, he must looke into an Almanack for them. At one time, the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine, viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre. At another time, they pull in that horne: and then for a season, such murder is disauowed. That the Councell is aboue a Pope, was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the p. 107fifts time: it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths.

About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent, the edition of the vulgar by**Anno Dom. 1590. Sixtus Quintus, was authenticall, and not to bee reiected vponupon any pretence. Not long after, it was not authenticall: For**Anno. Dom. 1592. Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places. Now goe and vpbrayd vsus with our late reuised translation: but see withall, that you dispence with the Pope, that he may dispence with you. One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church; another yeere it is impugned. Lastly, in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie, among you, that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques: in the next yeere wee reade, that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath. The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent, arrogant, profane, Antichristian, Luciferian, in Saint**Greg. Epist. l. 4. Epist. 78. & 82. & alibi. Gregories time: but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar. Yea, but say you, The Protestants hauehave no certaine and infallible rule, sufficient to preserue them from change. Belike then, the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule; but vnwritten traditions are: the Word of God is no sure ground, the Popes Decree is. The Apostle then hath much deceyued vsus, who saith, Let God bee true,Rom. 3 4.Rom 3:4 and euerie man a lyer. If euerie man a lyer, euerie Pope too. foreign, homo, not p. 108vir onelyonly, to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability. You adde, to piece out your former argument, that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius, viz. the visibilitie, which is easily knowne, by the truth of Doctrine, which is more hardly knowne, especially by onelyonly Scripture; of the sense whereof, according to the Protestants, who say, The whole Church may erre, no particular man can bee infallibly sure. The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance; whereunto I adde: First, that visibilitie is more knowne to sense, then the truth of doctrine, but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly, the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense; but not the perpetuall, former, and future visibility of any one Church, much lesse of the vniuersall. And therefore it is much easier, out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture, together with the three Creeds, knowne to the simplest among vsus (where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue) to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation, then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages. Yea but no man, say you, can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture, because Protestants hold, The whole Church may erre. In thus arguing, you bewray either ignorance, or an ill conscience. Ignorance, if you knowe not, that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church, and the Church representatiue; of poynts necessarie to saluation, p. 109and not necessarie; of euident Texts of Scripture, & of obscure. But if you knew these distinctions, as indeed you cannot but knowe them (hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers) you dispute against your conscience. Because, in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture, the Church may erre; will it therefore follow, that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts? In which, if wee may beleeue **Aug. de doct. Christ. l. 2. c. 9. In iis enim quae aperte in Scriptura posita sunt, inueniuntur illa omnia, quae fide continent mores que viuendi.Saint Austin, all those things are found, which concerne faith and manners. Will it follow, because wee hold, that your Church representatiue, that is, the Pope and his Consistorie, or the Pope and his Councell may erre, that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ, consisting of all the visible Christians in the world, in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture, may erre? The Church following her guide, the Word of God, is sure not to erre, whether vniuersall or particular. For which preseruation from errour, we doubt not, but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels, then nationall: yet in both it sometimes falleth out, that, as Austen obserueth, Priora à posterioribus emendentur: the former are corrected by the later.

Thirdly, you beg an Argument from your selfe, drawne from a beggerly fallacy, called Petitio principij, or begging your maine question. You say, that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij, and therefore no demonstration: but I p. 110prooued it then, and since confirmed it, that it was a Demonstration, and therefore no petitio principij. Let the Reader heere obserue, how your Answers and Obiections interfere, and supplant one the other. Master Sweet will hauehave my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus; but you, a petitio principij. Againe, elsewhere you call this Argument, A digression from the question, & a diuersiue proofe, and yet here you will hauehave it to bee identicall. Wherefore as Xenophanes▪ opposed a motion made by Eleates, Arist. Rhet. l. 2. foreign.in behalfe of Leucothea, to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations, and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse: this motion, sayth hee, ouerthroweth it selfe. If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse, we must not bewaile her death: and if we bewaile her death, as being a mortal woman, wee must not sacrifice to her, as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner, whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers, may obiect against them; If the Argument aboue-named, was a petitio principij, it could not be a transitio à genere in genus: and if it were a transitio à genere in genus, it could not be a petitio principij. If it were a diuersiue proofe, it could not bee identicall: if it bee identicall, as you here affirme, it cannot be diuersiue: for, it implyes an apparant contradiction, to say,**In prouing the same thing by the same thing, digresseth from the same thing. that a man, in proouing idem per idem, doth digredi ab eodem. But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question: For (say you) in asking p. 111which is the true visible Church, or Congregation of the true faithfull, wee aske, at least vertually, which is the true faith. By the like reason, you might proue eueryevery Demonstration à priori, to bee a petitio principij: For, in propounding any question touching the effect, wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause. And therefore Aristotle, in lib. 2. Poster. Analyt. acutely prooueth, omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij; that euerie scientificall question is, in effect, a question of the medium or the cause. By the like Argument you might prooue, that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum, are petitiones principij: because, in propounding any question touching the definitum, wee, at least vertually, inquire of the definition. If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct, the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij: how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij: when, as it is certaine, they are distinct really, as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument: to which now I addresse my selfe.

Fourthly, you impeach my Demonstration, by pushing againe at the Maior; saying, Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church; yet inward faith alone, without some outward profession, by which it is made visible, or sensible, doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church.

It is a true rule in Philosophy: Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum; the bright light of a Demonstration p. 112so buzzardeth you, that you see not where you are, nor knowe what you are about. I am so farre from affirming, that inward faith, without outward profession, maketh a visible member of Christs Church; that from inward faith, I inferre necessarily ex consequenti; outward profession, which (as I sayd in the Conference) makes a member of the visible Church. Doo you grant the consequence, or deny it? If you grant it, my Argument proceedeth: if you deny it, confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles, your great Clerke,Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 13. Cardinall Bellarmine, makes good the consequence in this manner: Qui non confitentur fidem, sed, eâ in corde retentâ, exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam, non sunt boni, nec saluantur; cùm ad Roman. 10. dicat Apostolus, Corde creditur ad iustitiam, ore autem fit confessio ad salutem: et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus, &c. They are not good men, nor shall bee saued, who do not confesse the faith; but, keeping it in their hearts, outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry: For, the Apostle, Rom. 10. saith, With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes; but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation: And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men, him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen.

Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vponupon my Argument, and demonstrate to me, though à posteriori, what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori.

p. 113The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the ninth, touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher, out of Doctor Field.

Doctor Featly.

That Church whose faith, &c.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith, once giuen to the Saints: Ergo.

M. Fisher.

I answer the Minor. If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe, I absolutely deny it: but if this proposition bee considered (as it must bee) as related to the first Question, and the end thereof, I further adde, that it is not pertinent to that end, for which the whole Dispute was intended; to weet, to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith, necessary to saluation, without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ: and, consequently, the Visibility of the Church is first p. 114to bee shewed, before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed.

D. Featly.

First, what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith? Is any man able by his owne ability, without the help of diuine grace?

Secondly, what helpeth the Visibility, to confirme the truth of the Church? Visibility indeed prooues a Church, but not the true Church.

Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field, of the Church; supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer. Whereunto D. Featly promised, Answer should bee made, when it came to their turne to answer; now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher.

Master FISHER his Answer.

These words either were not spoken, or M. Fisher did not regard them, beeing in the midst of his Answer: in which he went on, shewing the necessity of a visible Church, by a saying of D. Fields, viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day, are so many in number, and so intricate in nature, that few hauehave time and leasure; fewer, strength p. 115of wit and vnderstanding▪ to examine them: what remaineth for men, desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence, but diligently to seeke out, which, among all the Societies of men in the world, is that Spouse of Christ, the Church of the liuing God, which is the pillar of the Truth; that so they may embrace her Communion, follow her direction, and rest in her Iudgement?

M. Fisher therefore (I say) beeing busily speaking this, did not regard what D. Featly did then say, but might easily hauehave answered first, that he neuer meant, that any were able of themselues, without help of Gods grace, to attaine the true faith; which hindreth not, but that some may hauehave that ability of wit and learning, by which they can better examine controuersies of faith, then those that want these abilities. Secondly, although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church, yet it (supposing Gods promises, that the true Church shall be alwaies visible) much helpeth: and want of Visibility in any one Age, prooueth a company not to bee the true Church.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field, and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme. To your allegation out of D. Field, I answer, Mitte quod scio, Die quod rogo. D. Fields speech I acknowledge, which is very pertinent to his end, but nothing to yours; that it is requisite p. 116for all Christians, especially the weaker, to fly to the Church, and hide themselues vnderunder her wings, to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites, as D. Field prudently obserueth: so no Protestant, to my knowledge, denieth. Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught, as to honor God their Father, so also the Church their Mother. Now, because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe, as if shee were the Spouse of Christ, and true Mother of all Christians; it is most behoouefull to all those that hauehave care of the health of their soules, to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot; the sincere milke, and wholsome brests of the one, from the poysoned dugs of the other: to which end, D. Fields Treatise of the Church, is a singular help: which when I reade, mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius, Plin. nat. histo. l. 1. cap. 20.so much innobled by Pliny, qui rectos …t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos, who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body: so able, so sinewie a Writer is D. Field; who hauing well traced true antiquity, doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons, and conquereth you with them: hee takes away your strongest harnesse, in which you trust, I meane, the Catholique Church; proouing it to bee ours, not yours. To the authority of Scriptures (which I here beginne at) hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God, the pillar of truth, in whose determination and Communion, both wee and you are to rest. But doe you, M. Fisher, in earnest p. 117or with mentall reseruation, appeale to D. Fields iudgement? Me thinks you draw the latch, as if you meant to enter into the penetralia & Clozet of that work of the Church. If you bee willing so to doe, I will leade you into the Entrie. Turne me but the page ouer, you shall finde, before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you, be ended, a Writ of Error sued against that Church, which wil needs be the Mistresse and Mother of the rest, nay, the whole Church. There hath she her paterne from the Donatists, of appropriating to her self the title & priuiledges of the Church, excluding all other from the hope of saluation. So the Romanists cast into hel all the Christians of Greece, Russia, Armenia, Syria, Aethiopia, because they refuse to be subiect to the tyranny of the pope; as also the States & kingdoms of Europe, which hauehave freed themselues from their Aegyptiacall bondage; That the Romanists abuse vsus with pretences of antiquity, vnitie, vniuersalitie, making the simple beleeue, that al is antient which they professe, and that the consent of all Ages is for them: whereas it is easie to prooue, that all the things wherein they differ from vsus, are nothing but nouelties and vncertainties; that the greatest part of the Christian world hath been diuided from them for certaine hundreds of yeeres; and more to that purpose: which in that preface he promiseth, and in the tractate prooueth. To which booke, me thinkes, M. Fisher, or some other of his pew-fellowes, should vndertake in order, proutiacet, to make answer, or else neuer to hauehave beene so hardie, to cite that p. 118Author, whose lines vpbraid them with i…abilitie or negligence, so long as they suffer so learned and laborious a treatisely bent point blank against the walles of Rome to remain vnbattered.

Now to your alleuiation: you say in that speech of yours, concerning men not able, by their owne abilities, to finde out the infallible faith: you meant not to imply, that any were able of themselues, without helpe of Gods grace, to attaine the true faith: I hope, you meant not, because I trust that you are not sunke so deepe into Pelagianisme. Yet you should hauehave circumcised your lips and tongue, and kept better the Apostles rule,1. Tim. 1. 13.1 Tim 1:13 to hold fast the for me of sound words: for, what Christian eare can endure to heare of men able, by their owne ability of wit or learning, to find out faith? Wit and learning, I grant, are Gods good gifts, foreign, not to bee vnderunder-valued, much lesse contemned; yet let me tell you, that wit and learning without grace (such is the corruption of our nature) rather hinder, then further our conuersion, as Saint Austen writes in his confessions, not with inke, but with teares: and on the contrary, grace without eminent wit or learning, outstrips naked wit & learning, in our race to heauen. Indocticoelum rapiunt, et nos cum doctrinis nostris, &c.

As for that which you adde, that Visibility though alone it prooue not the true Church, yet that it much helpeth to the proof thereof, I much desire you to help me heere, in shewing me how p. 119it much helpeth: for Visibility is but a common accident, and I finde no topick place in Aristotle, ab vno accidente communi ad subiectum. Suppose a meere naturall man were to choose his religion, and his Church, what will Visibility helpe him? Besides, all sorts of Christian Churches, Iewish Synagogues, Mahumetane and Gentile Congregations are visible: will you say That is the truer Church which is more visible? If you carrie it away from vsus by that marke, the Greek Church will carrie it away from you; the Mahumetanes, from the Greeke Christians; and the Idolatrous Gentiles, from all. But this poynt hath bin handled before in my sixt & eight Assertion, touching the Visibility of the true Church: therfore omitting all farther prosecution of this point, and my proofe by Syllogisme, I come now to iustifie my induction.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the tenth, touching the induction and breaking vp of the Conference.

The Protestant Church was so visible, that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof, may be produced in the first hundred yerees, and p. 120second, and third, and fourth, et sic de caeteris, and so in the rest: therefore it was so in all Ages.

First, I name those of the first Age: and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all, our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ, blessed for euer, &c.

M. Fisher.

Name of all Ages, or else you do nothing.

D. Featly.

I cannot name all at once. Will you hauehave me name men of so many Ages, at one breath, &c?

M. Fisher.

You shall not begin at Christ and his Apostles.

D. Featly.

You are not to make my Induction: I will begin with Christ and his Apostles, &c.

M. Fisher.

Name the rest in all Ages, and then I will answer.

D. Featly.

First, answer to the first Age: and then I wil proceed to the second, &c.

M. Fisher.

I will not answer you any thing, till you hauehave made your Catalogue.

D. Featly.

M. Fisher,I charge you, as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of iudgement, to answer p. 121directly, whether Christ and his Apostles taught our faith, or yours, &c.

Notwithstanding this deep Charge, M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles, &c.

Master FISHER'S Answer by a Counter-relation.

After this, D. Featly named, for the first Age, our Lord and Sauiour Christ, and his twelue Apostles, and Saint Paul, and Saint Ignatius. After which, he staied awhile, as if he had studied for more Names: but, not remembring any more whom he would set down for the first Age, he said, These (not denying others) may serue for the first Age.

Then turning to M. Fisher, he said, Let vsus dispute of these. No, said M. Fisher: name, first, of all Ages. What, said D. Featly? Will you not dispute of Christ and his Apostl…es? Yes, said M. Fisher, in due place; but first name the rest in all ages, and then I will answer you. What, said D. Featly? Doo not Christ and his Apostles deserue the first place? M. Fisher. I will not answer, before you hauehave named the rest.

Then said D. Featly in a heat, Well: you will not dispute of Christ and his Apostles: then you grant Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants. And so instantly, without expecting M. Fisher's Answer, he turned himselfe to the Audience, and said, Hee grants Christ and p. 122his Apostles to be Protestants. Whereupon, diuers of the Audience made such a shout, as if they had gotten a victory; with such a noise, as M. Fisher, endeuouring to answer, for a time could not be heard. But he rising vp, and with his hand and voice crauing silence, made such as would heare him, vnderstand, how falsely D. Featly had slandered him to his face: and either then, or vponupon some like occasion, he said, What may I expect behinde my back, when you thus mis-report mee to my face?

And in this sort, when many of the company were willing to depart; D. Featly, beeing called vponupon (as it seemed) by some of his companions, to goe away, did arise, and offer to be gone: yet, in his rising, he turned to M. Fisher, saying, Will you dispute vponupon Christ and his Apostles, or no? To which M. Fisher said, I will, if you will stay; and stretching out his hand, hee took D. Featly by his arme, offering to stay him: yet hee, in that abrupt manner, went away.

Doctor FEATLY's Reply.

This last passage hath been so duely pondered by those honourable, reuerend, and worshipfull Personages, who hauehave set their hands to the Attestation, that, to adde any more to that which is there most exactly discussed, were to offer post Protogenem lineam ducere, to draw a line after the most curious painter. The matter of fact then beeing cleered by witnesses beyond all exception, I owe nothing to M. Fisher for his Counter-relation, p. 123saue onelyonly satisfaction to a similitude of debt, wherewith hee thinkes hee payes mee home, pag 61.

Master FISHER'S reflection, cap 3.

To do as Doctor Featly did, is no fit way to giuegive satisfaction to all sorts, expecting resolution of the aforesaid most important question: As it were a very insufficient way, to giuegive satisfaction in a debt of twentie pieces of gold to another his creditour, if in stead of actuall payment required, hee should say and offer to proue by a syllogisme, yea, by a demonstration à priori, that he can pay him the said twentie pieces, and being vrged to lay downe the particular peeces of gold, hee saith, that by an induction hee will lay downe those pieces of gold one after another; and being farther pressed to doe so, hee, not hauing one piece of gold of his owne, taketh out of his creditors purse, one or two, or more pieces; and laying downe one or two of them, saith, Lo, here is one or two towards the twentie: and being neuer so much vrged, he will not lay downe any more, vntill his creditour first dispute with him, whether these two or three pieces laid downe bee his owne or no: and being hereupon seriously told by his creditour, that vnlesse he laid downe all the pieces of gold, hee did not satisfie the debt, but lost his credit and forfeited his band; he then falleth into passion, and saith, What? will you hauehave mee eat my dinner at a bit? I cannot lay downe all at once. Will you dispute with mee about these, or no? Which his creditor refusing to doe, vntill all the twentie p. 124pieces bee actually laid downe; hee lastly saith, Well, you will not dispute about these: you grant these to bee mine. And so, without expecting answer, hee turneth to the companie, saying, Hee granteth these to bee mine, and taketh vp his cloke, and runneth away, not regarding that his creditour, so soone as hee can open his mouth, biddeth him stay, and denieth anie such grant to hauehave been made by him; yea, offereth to dispute with him of that poynt, if hee will stay. I suppose, no man will thinke this kinde of dealing, to bee an honest and good satisfaction in a debt of monie: and therefore much lesse should it bee accounted good in matters of for more importance and value, and specially in satisfying this (by Doctor Featly vndertaken) debt, of shewing names of visible Protestants in all ages out of good Authors.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

Wee hauehave had triall before of your Grammar, Logicke, and Philosophie, and heer now you giuegive vsus a cast of your Rhetoricke. The parts of a good similitude, called Protasis and Antapodosis, ought to be like two eyes looking one way, and not asquint: else they make not a similitude, but a dissimilitude. Let vsus then view the aspect and cast of these your eyes. As a man, who being to pay a debt of twentie pieces or pounds to another his creditour,Protasis. in stead of actuall paying, offers to proue by a Syllogisme, that hee can pay him: and afterwards being pressed, not hauing p. 125one piece of gold of his owne, taketh out one or two pieces out of his creditours purse, and layeth them downe, and will lay no more downe, vntill his creditour first dispute with him whether the pieces laid downe be his owne or no. And the creditour refusing so to doe, till the whole summe were laid downe, hee the debtor taketh vp his cloke, and runneth away: Euen so Doctor Featly, Antapodosis.being to proue the visibilitie of the Protestant Church, first proued it by a demonstration à priori, and afterwards, at the importunitie of his aduersarie, vndertooke also to proue it à posteriori, by producing a catalogue of Names from Christ to Luther; and hee began, recto et naturali ordine, with the first age, instancing in Christ and his Apostles, very earnestly pressing and vrging, yea and adiuring also Master Fisher to answer this instance: And vponupon Master Fishers finall and peremptorie refusall thereof, he was pulled away by the companie, and not suffered to argue any longer with such a one, that refused to answer Christ and his Apostles. Hold hooke and line, and the Fisher shall catch a Gudgeon. I grant, a Similitude needeth not currere quatuor pedibus, runne vponupon foure feet; yet certainly it is a very bad Similitude that is lame of all foure, as this is; and therefore cannot draw Dunne out of the mire. First, to produce a Catalogue of Names, was no debt, but rather a merit or worke of supererrogation: for the visibilitie of the Protestant Church may bee, and hath beene p. 126sufficiently defended, and demonstratiuely proued, without producing any catalogue of names: and therefore your similie limpeth on the first foot.

Secondly, to proue the visibilitie of the Church by a demonstration à priori, is not to pay a debt, by offering to proue, that a man can pay it; but actually to pay it in the purest gold, whereas it had been sufficient to pay it in ordinarie siluer or coorser gold. For, a demonstration à priori, as farre exceeds a demonstration à posteriori, as gold doth siluer, or the finest Angel gold baser coine of the same metall; and therefore your similie halteth on the second foot.

Thirdly, to instance in Christ and his Apostles, was not to lay downe two pieces for twentie, but to lay downe a Diamond worth manie millions, in stead of twentie peeces: for if the Poet could say,Cic. Orator. Plato mihi instar millium: Plato is to mee in stead of a thousand; how much more may a Christian, especially a Protestant Christian say, Christ and his Apostles are to me in stead of millions of witness…s? Neither is it an idle ma…ter, as in your ridiculous similie you would imply, but a matter of the greatest importance of all, to enquire whether Christ and his Apostles bee ours or yours: and therefore your similitude halts downe-right on this third foot.

Fourthly, it is not all one, after a man hath laid downe two pieces, to stay till they bee weighed, before hee lay downe any more, and p. 127simply to refuse to lay downe any more. It is one thing, voluntarily to goe away; and another thing, to bee puld away by those of his friends whom hee hath cause most to respect; and therefore your similie is lame also on the fourth foot: and how then can it stand vpright, much lesse goe for currant? Nay, the most beggerly cripplenesse of this long-robed comparison, is in the begging as granted that which is the moment and ground of the whole question. Hee putteth the case, that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse. Surely, a blind or verie credulous creditor, that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket. O patience! Good Sir Creditor, if you can, vponupon your credit, make good, that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne, namely, Christ and his Apostles, are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie, take vsus your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest. But if this field, wherein this precious pearle lyeth, bee by good title ours (as I then would, and at any time hereafter can proue) I think, vponupon such conuiction, you will hauehave small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie. Doe but looke on this coyne, though loth, and see whose image and superscription it carryeth: is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter, the Scriptures? They are ours by Christ; Christ ours by them.

The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditions, p. 128so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Copper of new-minted Articles, that Christ, and his Apostles, and Euangelists, cannot bee admitted; nay, will not bee embased, to bee mingled with such drosse. But I wonder that you dwell so long vponupon a money-Similie. I thought you had vowed pouerty, and might not touch siluer. I hauehave heard of some of your orders, that if they touch coyne, it blisters their hands: as it is reported of a certaine Lady, that if a Rose-leafe bee put vponupon her hand as shee is asleep, it will make it blister. But it seemeth to mee, that you are Theocritus his Fisher; you fish for gold; and, if you are not wronged, hauehave caught no small number of golden gudgeons in your net, and transported them beyond the seas, carrying, Rem ad non res, no smal stock to English Nunneries, I had almost sayd Iesuitisses or Loyolasses. And if you will needes hauehave a Similie from paying monie, to illustrate this passage in the conference, thus you may frame it: Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which hauehave runne since Christ, to bee sixteen-hundred pound: suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound: I, by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age, lay downe a hundred pound of the summe, and bid you tell it after me, and then demand of you, whether the summe bee right? You answer, that you will tell mee, after you hauehave told the whole summe of 1600. pounds. I presse you again & againe, to answer concerning p. 129this first summe, whether it be right or no: if it be right, I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner. You answer as before, Lay downe the rest, or you shall not begin with the first & next heap, but with the last in cōclusion. I charge you, as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master, whose factor you pretend to bee, to giuegive-ouer all cauilling, & plainly & directly to answer me, whether this first sum be right or not: and when, notwithstanding this deep charge, you trifle & cauill, the witnesses, who were to set their hands to my acquittāce, pul me away, saying, You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor. This is a true & perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference: wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof.

The Protestant Relation.

Paragraph the eleuenth, touching the issue of the Conference.

This Conference, though it took not that progresse which was desired, by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation, not permitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument; yet it hath not beene fruitlesse: for since that time, the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde, and gaue him many thankes for the said p. 130meeting, and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion; that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes: and whereas formerly, by their sophisticall perswasions, hee was in some doubt of the Church, hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion, that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company, and their doctrine also.

Master FISHER'S Answer.

I hauehave cause to doubt, that this which the Relator saith, is not true: for thereby hee maketh the old Gentleman to bee but of a weake capacity, or of a very mutable nature: for first, I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference, of any such effectuall resolution, to bee made by the old Gentleman. Secondly, I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey. If immediately after the Conference, it would argue too much want of capacitie: for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question, in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied (as I verily hope hee did) hee might easily hauehave marked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes; which also were so answered, as the audience, for want of satisfaction in them, vrged him to leaue off, and … produce names of Protestants in all Ages; the which p. 131producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages, and yet beeing onelyonly pretended (and that most falsely) to be done for one Age, and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly, before he would goe forward to name men in other Ages, especially in Ages before Luther; at the question required; any meane capacitie might see, that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied; was not fully answered, nor consequently hee satisfied.

Moreouer, the same Gentleman beeing present; when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher, that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giuegive names of Protestants in other Ages, hee might easily, and doubtlesse did vnderstand; that as yet … in all Ages were not giuen, nor consequently, the Question satisfied, in which hee expected Answer. Furthermore, presently after hee went away from the Conference, hee told M. Fisher himselfe, that hee was glad, that at the next meeting his Question should bee answered: which shewed, that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered.

Lastly, diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past (which was made about the Conference) the old Gentleman was not …ore solute a Protestant (as the Relator pretendeth) for meeting M. Fisher, and M, Sweet, hee desired them to giuegive him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the … that if after this the Doctors should not giuegive him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause: Which Catalogue, M. Fisher, and M. Sweet hauehave ready for him, but will not deliuer, till he get the Doctors to make p. 132theirs ready, that hee bring to them the Doctors Cat… logue with one hand, and receiue theirs with the others, to deliuer to the Doctors.

All that can bee suspected, is, that in the very time of the said stir, when the old Gentleman either was, or feared to bee called in question; it may perhaps bee, that he might say those words, which the Relator mentioneth. But this (if it were) was onelyonly vponupon fra…ltie or humane feare of trouble, and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vponupon the Conference, sith both before and after, he shewed a contrary minde, as hath beene said.

Doctor FEATLIE'S Reply.

What you repeat in this passage, touching my proceedings in the Conference, hath beene before vponupon diuers occasions answered; and I endeuour, as much as may bee, to auoyd your familiar figure of battologie or repetition. For, that which concerneth M. Bugges, that hee receiued satisfaction by the Conference, and gaue many thankes to Sir Humfrey Lynd for procuring it, and not as you imagine, when the trouble was about the Conference, but the selfesame night, in the very roome wherein we conferd, is not onelyonly proued by Sir Humfrey Lynde his testimonie, but also by M. Bugges owne subscription, both to the Protestant Relation in generall, and to this passage in particular, and that of late, since all pretended trouble was blowne ouer. Now M. Fisher, you p. 133are a very merry man, that will goe about to face a man out of his beliefe, and dispute him out of that peace and comfort which hee feeleth in his consciecne. M. Bugges may well answer you in the words of Saint Austen, spoken to another purpose, Tu ratiocinare: ego credam, &c. Doe you syllogize: I will beleeue. Demand you a reason, if you list: I will giuegive thankes. Argue as long as you please, How I could bee resolued by the Conference? I am sure, I was resolued, and so still continue. When the Philosopher in A. Gellius, sophistically disputed against motion in this manner:

Whatsoeuer is mooued locally, is either mooued in the place wherein it is, or wherein it is not. It cannot be mooued in the place wherein it is not, because that is not to mooue locally, or in place: where the body hath no existence, it can hauehave no motion. Neither can a body be said to mooue in the place wherein it is, because while a body remaines in its place, it cannot mooue from it: One of his Auditors there present, whose arme a little before had beene put out of ioynt; though hee could not verbally answer that his sophisme, yet hee really refeld it thus, At ego sensi motum luxato brachio, I am sure I felt a motion when I hurt my arme, and put the bone out of ioynt. In like manner, when you argue, that M. Bugges could not be mooued by any thing that was spoken in the Conference, because his Question was not answered; or the p. 134Catalog…e of names not produced; or because D. Featlyes proofs were diuersiue; or because the Popish. Audience still called for names; or because you and M. Sweet are not yet satisfied: or because I know not what: M. Bugges, in a word refutes all your reasoning, At ego sensi motum, I am sure I felt my selfe mooued by it: and the doubt which sometimes shook my faith, remooued: So that I wa… thereby, not (as the other) put out of ioynt, but in ioynt; and of lame, made whole. Neither will it hence follow, that M. Bugges must needs bee a man of meane capacity, if hee were satisfied by so short a Conference; but rather that God oftentimes vseth weake meanes to ouerthrow Satans strong holds. Firmus the Maniche was reclaimed from that heresie, by a digression of Saint Austens, in a certaine Homily. Alipius was drawn from heathenish sports and pastimes, by an example, in a discourse of Saint Austens on the By. That noble Venetian Marquesse, who left both his Marquisate, and all that hee had, for the louelove of the Gospell, and comfortably ended his daies at Geneuae, was at the first reformed, both in his faith and life, by an elegant Simile in a Sermon of Peter Martyrs. Sometimes an exquisite Sermon taketh not the Auditory; and sometimes a farre meaner taketh: now and then a stronger Argument worketh not vponupon the vnderstanding and will; and yet a weaker proofe doth at the same time. You cannot bee ignorant of the Story in Ruffinus, of an Arrian Philosopher, p. 135of whom the learned Bishops in the Councell could get no ground at all: yet a simple vnlearned man, by two or three blunt Interrogatories, conquered and quite confounded him. Wil you from this, and the like instances, inferre, that the men so conuerted, were men of meane capacity? The contrary euidently appeares in Story: you should rather from hence gather with religious Austen (who may truly be said to … written, rather ex gratia, then degratia, so gratiously doth hee write of grace) totum Deo dare, qui voluntatem hominis bonam et praeparat adiuuandam,Enchirid. ad Laurent. et adiuuat praeparatam; in our first conuersion, and eueryevery good work after, to ascribe all to God, who both prepares the will to be aided by grace, and aideth it beeing prepared.

Yea, but say you, M. Bugges much desired a second meeting: therefore it seemes, he was not so resolute a Protestant as wee make him. If this were a good Argument, you might prooue all of our side to be vnsettled in our Religion; yea, M. Deane of Carlile, and my selfe also, who much desired, and yet doe, a second meeting, to perfect the work then begun. Though a man be neuer so well resolued in poynt of Religion, yet hee may desire to heare Diuinity-Disputations, and make good vse of them. Yea, but M. Bugges desired M. Fisher and M. Sweet to giuegive him a Catalogue of names of professors in the Romane Church; saying, that if after this, the Doctors would not giuegive him a Catalogue of Protestants, p. 136hee would dislike their cause. If M. Bugges spake so (which I hauehave reason to doubt) hee spake it, as hauing certaine knowledge, that we had a Catalogue, which hee did or might hauehave seene in the Conference. Nor indeed doth the desiring or requiring of a Catalogue, inferre any doubt of the conclusion. Though a plaine vnlearned Christian beleeue most firmely, that Christ was borne of the seed of Abraham and Dauid, yet may he desire more particular information, by hearing the beginning of Saint Mathews, or Saint Lukes Gospell read and expounded to him. Moreouer, when I vndertooke to name those who taught Protestant Doctrine in all Ages, if I should faile therein, he should hauehave had iust cause to dislike my proceedings. Yea but, say you, there was no cause giuen in the Conference at all, of any effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman: therefore he could not bee so resolued by it, as is pretended. For answer heereunto, though I am loth, yet you constraine mee to recapitulate the chiefe points touched in the Conference. Before the Conference, M. Bugges was somewhat staggered in the poynt touching the Visibility of the Church, by your brauadoes, and Rhodomontadoes, that all the world were Papists before Luther; That there was neither vola nor vestigium of a Protestant Church before that time;A briefe recapitulation of the Conference. That no Protestant Minister durst encounter you in this point: if any should be so hardy, as to enter into these lists with you; you would presently blank, silence, p. 137and nouplus them. Thus possessed, and in some sort perplexed by your bold and confident assertions and false suggestions; hee with much adoe, by Sir Humfrey Lyndes meanes, procures a Conference: wherein hee findes all things otherwise then hee might expect. Hee and all the Auditory obserued D. White, and my selfe, to bee very ready and earnest to proceed in the Questions; both to prooue the Visibility of our Church, and disprooue theirs. On the contrary, he could not but see you to cast all manner of Remoraes and rubs, to hinder speedie and direct proceedings: and for the Questions touching the Visibility of the Church,

First, hee heard, that the perpetuall Visibility of the Church, beeing a point of faith, was not to bee built vponupon deduction from humane Stories and good Authors, as the Iesuite required; but vponupon diuine reuelation in Gods Word, as is confessed by**Bellarmine loc. sup. cit. Canus loc. l. 11. c. 4. praeter auctores sacros nullum historicum certum esse posse et …doneum, ad faciendum certam in theologia fidem. learned Papists.

Secondly, that a Protestant Church might hauehave beene visible in all Ages, and yet not the names of visible Protestants now to bee produced, and prooued out of good Authors, because neither all mens names euer were vponupon record, nor are all antient Records preserued to this day, neither can wee come by all those Records that are yet extant.

Thirdly, that notwithstanding the Popish brag, that All the Christian world were Papists before Luther; yet you were not able to name any Countrey, p. 138City, Village or Hamlet, nay not any man, who for 500. yeeres and more after Christ, either professed your Trent-faith in generall, or those fifteene points recited in the Conference in particular.

Fourthly, that the surest and strongest meanes to prooue the perpetuall Visibility of a Church, was á priori, by the conformity of it's faith to the Scriptures: of which faith, God promiseth in his Word, that it shall hauehave visible Professors to the worlds end.

Fiftly, that a visible Church inferrs not necessarily a right faith. Iews, Mahumetanes, Gentiles, and diuers sorts of blasphemous Hereticks, hauehave visible professors of their impieties: yet are they all of a wrong beliefe; if of any on the contrary, the right faith inferreth necessarily a visible Church, because the true faith cannot bee in a Church, which professeth it not openly, or priuately: therefore the prime and maine question of all is, of the right beliefe, of the primitiue and Catholique faith, whether wee or the Church of Rome hauehave it; and not of a Catalogue of names.

Sixtly, that an offer was made, to name some eminent persons, which in al Ages taught Protestant Doctrine, and opposed the Romish errors, either when they came in, or not long after; and that this Catalogue had beene a good way proceeded in, if you had not beene the cause by your delayes and tergiuersations.

p. 139Lastly, that when I instanced in Christ and his Apostles, and vrged you againe and againe, yea and adiured you also to answer directly, whether they taught our faith or yours; yet you peremptorily and finally refused so to doe: which hee might well interpret, to proceed from your apparant distrust in your cause.

And now let the discreet Reader iudge, whether M. Bugges had not reason to alter his opinion concerning you and your cause, at least in that particular, of which only he seemed to doubt of.