The Romish Fisher Caught and Held in his Own Net, Occasion of conference – Answer
Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference.
Protestant Relation.
EDVVARD BVGS, Esquire, about the age of 70. yeers, being lately sick, was sollicited by some Papists then about him, to forsake the protestant faith, telling him, There was no hope of saluation without the Church; There was no Catholike Church, but theirs.
Master FIHSER's Answer.
How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false; I will not stand to discusse, as not yet knowing how, or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church, and consequently of his religion, &c.
Doctor FEATLYE's Reply.
Although I might take occasion by the counter-relation of the occasion of this conference, to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds & falsehoods (for as they say in a Lamprey, so in this whole treatise frō the beginning to the ending there is a string of poyson; throughout) yet because the occasiō of the conference but little concernes the cause, & less me, in sparing the Iesuites blame, and penance, I will spare mine owne paines, and the Readers …; who (I perswade my selfe) will not much regard how wee came into the field: but how wee acquitted our selues vponupon the place, for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man (which impudently thrust themselues vponupon vsus at euerie turne) in the occasion, Page 7. and … Conference, and afterwards in the … Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they … been met withall by Master Rogers, Master Walker and diuers other, and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their … shall hauehave ouer and aboue, my … Asteriskes, when my tractate of the visibiliti… the Church (which hath laine by mee in darknes for the space of a yeere) shall vponupon some good occasion become visible and see the light. As for the relation of matter of fact, so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together, there needs no conte… ting Answer, where they clash or … one another. I can answer no otherwise thē the O…ator doth in the like kinde, Accusatar dicit, Marcus S… rus negat: Vtri …redemus? A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation; a worthie Knight of knowne integrity, who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman▪ Master … auoweth them, as followeth. …
The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde, touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation, about the occasion and issue of the Conference, excepted against by the Iesuite.
COncerning the occasion of the Conference, I a…ow, that (according to his Maiesties command) I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faithfully, to my best remembrance, as is alreadie extant in print. And whereas (fol. 4.) Master Fisher saith, hee set downe two questions with my consent, and the old Gentlemans; the first whereof being allowed by both of vsus, Master Fisher wrote, It is granted; I affirme, that in processe of discourse, I then allowed, that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times: but, that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth, or that I obserued what M. Fishers marginall note was, I vtterly denie. And wheras (page 12.) Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Auditorie, compared with the few which Master Fisher brought: To this I say, that, vponupon my credit, I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting, more then those that I inuited to dinner. Howsoeuer, I doubt not, but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side; and by this time, is more asham'd of his cause, then of the paucitie of his parties th…re present. And yet I will let him know (for the small acquaintance I hauehave among the Papists) I was able to number full twentie of that side present. And verily, had I purposedly drawn thither so much company, the Iesuites ought me thanks for it, as therein deseruing well of the Catholique cause, by bringing a troup of spectators, to view the foyle of our own side, in a question reputed by the Iesuites so disaduantageous to vsus: wherin, forsooth, the Protestants (as is triumphed, page 33.) are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age, t…at they are not able to name one; to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles (for, they were not worthy to bee answered) not one Author; no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall. Again (page 16.) whereas it is said, there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet; I answer, that I was induced for certaine reasons, then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vponupon Transubstantiation. First, the standers by did well perceyue, that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried, and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing, and writing little to the purpose. Secondly, a Romified Lady being present, and being troubled with those dull and weake answers, did then intreat me to interpose, and dispute of Transubstantiation for her instruction. And lastly, I adde, that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house, 8. weekes before, where his leasure then would not giuegive him leaue to dispute of it: and now I conceiued, he was wel armed for a second encounter. Againe, where it is related in the Conference, that I told M. Buggs, that the Church was in Christ and his Apostles, &c. The Iesuite saith in the margent there,A weaker Refutation, as is shewed in the insuing Discourse. A very weake and insufficient answer, as is shewed hereafter. Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie, and forgot a farther Reply; or else other answer hee could not make to disproue it. Neither, by Master Fishers leaue, was it so weake and insufficient an answer as hee gaue me, when, vponupon his first meeting, falling into conference about the Reall presence, which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words, Hot est corpus meū; I answerd, that Scotus, & Cameracensis, and Bellarmine, were of opinion, that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation. To which obiection, hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by: What care I for Bellarmine, or Scotus, or Cameracensis? Againe, by Master Sweets leaue, it was not so weake and insufficient an answer, as when I propounded to him foure questions, viz. The worship of Images, Praier in an vnknowne tongue, Communion in one kinde, and Transubstantiation; with this assurance, in the presence of Recusants, that if he could proue either all, or but any one of those, held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church, according to that forme of doctrine prescribed in the Councel of Trent; I would then subscribe to Popery. All his answer was, that hee brought a booke that would proue them all. So for that time I was content, hee should bee saued by his booke. But Doctor Featly (in whose hands hee is now) will not let him escape so easily; but, calling him into the inner barre, will finde, that non legit vt Clericus. At that time Master Sweet farther added, that hee for his part had other businesse, and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions. If his superior had heard him, certainly hee would hauehave enioyned him penance, for neglecting so fai…e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee: hee knowes, there ought to bee no businesse pretended, where there had been a possibility to make a proselyte.
Lastly, concerning the issue of the Conference, I auow and protest, that old Master Bugs came then to me, and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure, and told mee, that he well perceiued, it was be the great brags of the aduersaries for their Church; that hee well perceiued, they could say but little for it: and withall, hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time, that he professed vntounto mee, that if his sonne would not leaue his religion, and the priests company, he would leaue him, &c.
HVMFREY LYNDE.